yea i admit they did help the germans sometimes but the stuff they fucked up far out weighs the rest.
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This argument emerges month after month on every wargame forum.... I'm getting bored! 
To sum up all the discussions and to try to end here the argument here's a little FAQ:
Q: Was Italy ready to enter a war of a such scale?
A: No, it wan't. Mussolini entered war because he thought (what an *******) it would have finished soon after French surrender.
Q: Why Italian troops performed so badly in combat?
A: Lack of adeguate equipment (mainly AT weapons and tanks), lack of enough vehicles (Aircraft), lack of an heavy war-industry able to keep up the war production, lack of high level commander leadership, lack of national unity (we were ruled by a dictator, never democratically elected).
Q: Is the italian soldier more coward of an american (German,English or Soviet) one?
A: No, he isn't. Every man in the same condition italian soldiers had to fight would have behaved in the same way.
Q: Why Italy has a so bad reputation?
A: Because history is written by the winners, and Allied media always tried to give a bad representation of Italians, mainly to keep high morale of civilians.
Q: Was Italy helpfull to Germany?
A: mmmh... hard to say. Surely it wasn't a great ally.
IMHO worst thing italian alliance brought to Germans was that they had to delay Barbarossa and to sacrifice units that would have been of critical importance during first months when they stopped at the gate of Moscow when they had to help Italians in the Balkans...
So we can say we saved the world!
So please stop saying italian soldiers didn't know how to fight after the Roman empire, since every man that died figthing an unfair war (often without understand the stupid causes or being against fascist regime) deserves full respect.
To sum up all the discussions and to try to end here the argument here's a little FAQ:
Q: Was Italy ready to enter a war of a such scale?
A: No, it wan't. Mussolini entered war because he thought (what an *******) it would have finished soon after French surrender.
Q: Why Italian troops performed so badly in combat?
A: Lack of adeguate equipment (mainly AT weapons and tanks), lack of enough vehicles (Aircraft), lack of an heavy war-industry able to keep up the war production, lack of high level commander leadership, lack of national unity (we were ruled by a dictator, never democratically elected).
Q: Is the italian soldier more coward of an american (German,English or Soviet) one?
A: No, he isn't. Every man in the same condition italian soldiers had to fight would have behaved in the same way.
Q: Why Italy has a so bad reputation?
A: Because history is written by the winners, and Allied media always tried to give a bad representation of Italians, mainly to keep high morale of civilians.
Q: Was Italy helpfull to Germany?
A: mmmh... hard to say. Surely it wasn't a great ally.
IMHO worst thing italian alliance brought to Germans was that they had to delay Barbarossa and to sacrifice units that would have been of critical importance during first months when they stopped at the gate of Moscow when they had to help Italians in the Balkans...
So we can say we saved the world!
So please stop saying italian soldiers didn't know how to fight after the Roman empire, since every man that died figthing an unfair war (often without understand the stupid causes or being against fascist regime) deserves full respect.
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Montemurro said:
like invading greece, the peace loving nation of greece. Mussolini wanted to invade it to be like hitler and do conquests etc and cudnt do it cuz he was gay like that so Ger invaded by air n lost lots of casualir
MuckyPup said:
I would hardly call Mextas's Greece "peace loving" even if they were neutral. As for the invasion of Crete that was a German call and the casualties helped prevent operation Hercules, the Italo-German invasion of Malta, from going forward (and yes, I know that was ultimately Rommel's call). Finally, with regards to Mussolini's sexual preferrence, he was an infamous ladies man, he had six kids with his wife and still found time for many random women (supposedly he like to take them standing :rofl: ), as well as his many regular mistresses, such as Margarita Sarafatti and Clara Petacci
.
Pkunzipper said:
I agree. Every soldier on any side in WW2 deserves respect. The common soldier just did his duty for his country. They all went trough horrile things and deserves our deepest respect.
/wrenches back on topic
The nice thing about setting up the game with scenarios is that it will be simple to plug more in later. Fans can make some and Paradox can produce more anytime they want to increase their media profile and relaunch the game. I'd like to play the 1940 campaign too. The extended "Desert Rats" wargame on the ZX Spectrum was an early favourite of mine.
The nice thing about setting up the game with scenarios is that it will be simple to plug more in later. Fans can make some and Paradox can produce more anytime they want to increase their media profile and relaunch the game. I'd like to play the 1940 campaign too. The extended "Desert Rats" wargame on the ZX Spectrum was an early favourite of mine.
Kung Karl said:
i HAVE to disagree, every soldier does not deserve respect. Most do, the ordinary people caught up in a war not deserving to die do but the hardcore Nazis who happily and voluntary carried out executions such as SS or even some elements f the Wermacht will never get my respect. Some soldiers who indulged in torture on captured prisioners such as japanese soldiers do not deserve any respect in my eyes, these may be isolated incidents but you cant make sweeping statements like, yours.
MuckyPup said:
I said COMMON soldier...
And just because a soldier volunteer to fight in the german army does not mean he as a nazi. He could be joining to defending his family and country. Those are the people that deserves respect. Not the murders, I thought that people would understand that.
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I hate to burst some of the poster's bubbles, but Mussolini was a very horrible military commander. Ontop of that, the Commando Supremo was made up of bickering, old school thickheaded generals. The army was ill equiped, the average soldier had no interest in the war. The airforce was completely unco-ordinated with the navy and army and for some incomprehensible reason was not even in North Africa or the Med. to a large degree. And finally, the Navy; while numerically and technologically sufficient to launch a credible challenge to the British Med. Fleet, completely lacked the fisical resources to operate (i.e. oil) and was commanded by COWARDS.
Fine, the Italian Army had a very elite motorized corps, fine, the Italian Navy had some excellent frogmen and torpedo boats. But this does not absolve the complete and utter failure that the Italian Armed Forces were in operation during the second world war.
This is not a racial remark, my grandfather was in that war fighting for the Italians, it is just complete utter fact. Italy was too small for the weapons programs and armament philosophy of the fascists, he wanted to turn Italy into great britain in less than a decade, what happened is that priorities were spread to thin. Italy could not have a world class air force, world class navy, world class army, and world class economy and social programs all at once. In the end, Italians would design acceptably decent (and in some cases excellent) hardware, but not be able to produce them in the quantities needed to update the army. By the time the tank or gun or airplane reached the front, otherwise impressive designs were constructed with poor materials and shortcuts were taken in the production to get them out faster, but even so, by the time they reached the front they were outdated.
I am very interested in Italy and her history, I share an Italian ancestry with some of the people on the board, and I am proud of that history and some of the struggles that Italy and her people went through; but I can not, nor do I want, to stick my head in the sand about Italy's military performance in 95% of the 20th Century.
- MVSN
P.S. And no, fighting in the Germany army does not mean you are a Nazi. Does conscription mean anything to you? Even if it doesn't, did everybody who volunteered for service in Iraq vote Republican?
Fine, the Italian Army had a very elite motorized corps, fine, the Italian Navy had some excellent frogmen and torpedo boats. But this does not absolve the complete and utter failure that the Italian Armed Forces were in operation during the second world war.
This is not a racial remark, my grandfather was in that war fighting for the Italians, it is just complete utter fact. Italy was too small for the weapons programs and armament philosophy of the fascists, he wanted to turn Italy into great britain in less than a decade, what happened is that priorities were spread to thin. Italy could not have a world class air force, world class navy, world class army, and world class economy and social programs all at once. In the end, Italians would design acceptably decent (and in some cases excellent) hardware, but not be able to produce them in the quantities needed to update the army. By the time the tank or gun or airplane reached the front, otherwise impressive designs were constructed with poor materials and shortcuts were taken in the production to get them out faster, but even so, by the time they reached the front they were outdated.
I am very interested in Italy and her history, I share an Italian ancestry with some of the people on the board, and I am proud of that history and some of the struggles that Italy and her people went through; but I can not, nor do I want, to stick my head in the sand about Italy's military performance in 95% of the 20th Century.
- MVSN
P.S. And no, fighting in the Germany army does not mean you are a Nazi. Does conscription mean anything to you? Even if it doesn't, did everybody who volunteered for service in Iraq vote Republican?
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mvsnconsolegene said:
I hope you're not talking to me because that is what I meant.
Kung Karl said:
You meant that anybody who fought for the Germans is a Nazi? Let's be clear here; you think everyone who fought in the German Armed Forces was a member of the National Socialist German Worker's Party or a supporter of the Party or it's programs or philosophy?
- MVSN
mvsnconsolegene said:
Well Milizia Volontaria per la Sicurezza Nazionale, who here has got their head in the sand?
No one ever said that Mussolini was a brilliant military commander, he, along with Ciano, is responsible for the invasion of Greece, and that is Italy's most embarrasing military defeat of the last century. Having said that, I don't believe the parralell war strategy was totally unfeasible, it died with the failure in Greece (which was avoidable, the invasion should never have been launched in the late fall) and the sending of some of Italy's best troops to Russia.
And I don't think anyone in their right mind would defend the Stato Maggiore (General Staff) of any of the branches of the service. The navy high command was sympathetic to the British and inept, the army general staff was just inept, and the airforce refused to cooperate with the navy.
This said, many Italian units fought quite well, and Italian defeat was far from inevitable. It is also ridiculous to make statements like "the Italians were of no help to the Germans, the Germans always had to bail them out." Such statements are rightly rebuked. In June 1940, Egypt, Greece and Yugoslavia were not unrealistic targets for Italian expansion. To do all at once was indeed beyond Italy, but 2 out of 3 was not beyond Italy at all. Italy could have seized Egypt before the British put in reinforcements in Sept. 1940 (there were no Matildas present in Egypt before then and the Italians had an even greater numerical superiority then they would have later), and then invaded Greece after a proper military build up and during a better season (not only did the mountain roads turn to mud, but the Marina also failed to launch a planned amphibious landing, Ciano's delusion that Greek generals could be bought off was ridiculous).
as far as morale goes, carabinieri and police reports indicated that by the time it was obvious France was to fall, most Italians viewed entering the war as a necessary evil. Morale varied by unit and by front. Morale among Libian conscripts sucked, morale among Italian units was often quite high. There wasn't really a morale problem with frontline units except in Albania after the Greeks had driven into that country and in Sicily in 1943.
as far as equipment is concerned, Italy was not ready for war and was not expecting war in 1939. Its equipment was somewhat out of date, once the war began it became harder to replace existing equipment with newer equipment as replacements had to be made and resources were scarce. Knowing this, however, the performance of many Italian units is only more impressive.
mvsnconsolegene said:
just to be obstinate, I can't help but tell you that membership in the NDSAP was mandated by German law for all German citizens, furthermore, the armed forces took a seperate oath to the party and to Hitler
for what it's worth, membership in the Fascist party was never mandatory and numbers actually fluctuate with the popularity of Fascist decisions. the invasion of Ethiopia caused a spike that gave Fascism its peak membership, the intervention in Greece lowered membership (although more than half the country was still in the party).
stefano2294 said:
Agreed. The invasion of Greece is a perfect example of the Italian Armed Forces in action. Mussolini disbanded an entire corps of veteran soldiers who were stationed in yugoslavia/albania just a month before he declared war. It is clear that he was acting off the cuff...
Agreed.
Agreed. I also get angry when one discusses Africa, especially. I don't have the highest impression of Rommel anyways.
Agreed. But I would say that Morale wasn't as high as it could have been after 41' / early 42' how could it be? Thousands of Italians taken prisoner, Ethiopia lost, and a quick european war turned into a world war. This morale was more with the average person, perhaps, who began to for the first time question Mussolini's ability to lead them; Italians did not ever want to be involved in another world war. Fine, wars that seemed half over or involved fighting some country incredibly inferior were fine...
Agreed. And this all leads tooo - ITALY PERFORMED VERY BADLY IN THE SECOND WORLD WAR COMPARED TO EVERY OTHER SIGNIFICANT GLOBAL POWER. This makes sense, even today it is the least of the global powers in terms of GDP and standard of living.
I really don't see the disagreement here, I'm just trying to point out to some people that you can't and shouldn't hide from this poor military history.
- MVSN
stefano2294 said:
One, I am not comparing Italy to Germany here.
Two, Nazi Party membership became mandatory for all higher civil servants and bureaucrats, but not the average citizen. This was frozen shortly after the Nazi's gained power and they became worried about all the 'untrue nazis' who were joining the cause just to make a profit and because it was the 'in thing'. Membership became like joining club, you got in through connections.
I can post you a page worth of references for the above.
- MVSN
P.S. Oh, and I may be wrong about this one - but was it all soldiers or all officers who swore and oath to hitler? I was always under the impression that it was the latter...