the NEW Turtledove mod

[unmerged(45344)]

When the CSA wins the war, couldn't there be the set up for a Pacific war?

I noticed, that the Germans have a bit of land in the islands out there, if they allied with Japan to crush the now dominate CSA, could they send troops to invade Australia? Its obvious there would be over-extension to exert power within the entirety of the Pacific.

This over-extension would no doubt lead to a revolution in China creating a new Chinese state out of the Warlords and Japanese territory to rival their dominance once again.

I don't really know why no one has a recurrent Chinese state to consistently battle the Japanese, makes sense to me. You can defeat one Chinese government, but all the people? And how does the Nationalist Chinese become a puppet? Seems... an oxymoron?

Also, do the books go into any real detail about a CSA victory? Because, in my opinion, that being formed from a heck of a lot of research, that the CSA victory would be very differently shaped. Missouri, Maryland, southern California and other Western territories are claimed by the Neo-Confederates of today.

Why wouldn't the South want territory they helped settle and watch fall to Northern propaganda and oppression, especially Maryland, during the Civil War be reincorporated? Also, considering the South has a great feel for past connections to their French and British roots, why wouldn't they want to build a Canada and Quebec?

Also, in the Northern conquered government, I wouldn't think the South would want to place a paternal autocrat. Rather, a Market Liberal who would isolate the north, but allow in tact the system of government they have an affinity for. The South has always simply wanted to be left alone, it would make sense to put a government in charge that they knew would not attack or rebuild the country for the purpose of attack.

That being said, I doubt the United States would be allowed or wanted into the Entente, they weren't even wanted in during WWI till it looked like a hopeless conflict. I believe neither the South nor the North would want to interfere in either nation's governance.

But, with the Confederacy ultimately victorious, what would it seek from Africa? I could see some new clashes between the still fighting central powers and a Confederacy that might be looking for a piece of the pie, would they want the nation of Liberia and, maybe, Egypt? Are there ANY events to simulate a second scramble into Africa?

As for after the war. I could see a conflict between old allies, Britain and France, already beginning to form. I could see both blaming while still falling back on each other for getting each other to where they are. I could see a Northern Germany dominated by a government in Hanover, guess why, as a puppet of Britain. While the Southern, Catholic section of the country, Bavaria, would be dominated from a government in Munich, a puppet of France.

As for Western Germany, I could see it dominated from St. Petersburg, with a greater Polish state. I think in between, just to emphasize the new position and dominance in world politics, should be a Confederate government. Could Austria-Hungary possibly become democratic? Austria and Hungary would be probably separated, however, I could see a greater Austria as an ally to the French Empire.

With Belgium, which I don't understand why would still exist AT ALL after the French conquered it, considering its nothing more than a buffer state that shouldn't exist, on the side of France and the Netherlands, after the invasion by Britain, on the British side, I could see a huge Cold/Hot War coming together.

Maybe a Communist Revolution could rise up in Britain when it strikes a few to many powerful colonies now independent nations? Would renewed elections in the South shift the balance of power in a divided Europe?

Just some thoughts...

By the way... why is Charles Maurras Emperor? Also, I notice NONE of the AIs made for the mod work AT ALL.

 

[Derfasciti]

@ Brote Heckler concerning CSA's possibility to move into Africa.

Why would a victorious CSA move into Africa? More blacks than they originally had and plenty of competition.

Egypt? Sorry, i'm just finding this extremely hard to see happen. Maintaining an even longer supply line then England had with much less naval tradition/power? Not to mention, Egypt's clashing right up on the Ottoman Empire (I forget, but i'm figuring they won) and/or other victorious Entente powers.

The Carribean's their backyard, they'd go there first for sure.

 

[unmerged(35402)]

I could see a victorious CSA going to West Africa. They'd probably want a piece of Germany's colonies - possibly for no other reason than Jake Featherston's crusade. Just as the CSA invaded Haiti, I'm sure they would take a shot at Liberia or the other independent states that resulted from the British defeat in WWI.

 

[unmerged(45344)]

Aw... picture it, the CSA has won.


Enter the Victorious, how Puny looking

Now it is over... or is it?

I want to share a rough little outline a made for a possible storyline after the war... I make logical explanations and answer some peoples questions, some of the answers, I'll admit, are more for myself then for the reader. If it looks overwhelming for the resident event maker, I'm seasoned in the practice and could help out with its implementation.

CSA Victory
- America, borders redrawn!
• Rise of the Isolationist Market Liberal, Rush D. Holt Sr.
• Missouri, Maryland, New Mexico, Arizona and Southern California reaccepted into the Confederacy.
• Republic of Cascadia finally breaks away*
• Canada divided, British Canada and French Quebec
- British and French Quebec are asked respectively to rejoin their motherland:
1. Rejoin respective commonwealths as dominions
2. Rejoin as independent nations the Entente
3. Rejoin respective Empires totally
- Brazilian-Argentinean War Begins
• Argentina loses or vice versus activates chain
• They must then conquer Chile, who will join either side depending on event choice
• The (programmed) AI begins building massive amounts of IC, it then switches in 1944 to building a navy.
- Stalemate along the Seine River!
- Ireland and United Kingdom fight a fruitless battle, the sides do not change
- CSA annexes Ireland!
• Cultural brother is made puppet state,
• Northern Ireland is given back to England… for now.
• Sinn Féin (Soc-Con) President in government? Market Liberal Fianna Fáil? Or King?
• Renamed Confederation of Eire (Bit more CSA flavor)
- First Confederate troops march through Paris on their way to the Rhine!
- Japanese plans discovered! (Tension raises between Entente and Japs)
- German Autocrat Flees after Armistice! (German Autocrat flees to his colonies in Indonesia to continue the fight after signing an Armistice, joins forces with the Japs)
- Democracy in Germany, (much like the Franco-Prussian War) continues the fight, but when Berlin OR Hanover AND Munich are finally taken, Germany folds.
- The Japanese and Dutch begin isolated skirmishes in attempts to retake or conquer entirety of Indonesia
- Should CSA support a worthy cause in China? (Reoccurring event)
1. Send goods, weapons, bombs and even PLANES! We must help causes of freedom!
2. They are Chinese, they tell the Japanese and we get in trouble, send only food for the hungry…
3. Send absolutely nothing… yet.
- With defeat of Germany, Japs come under siege in China as Weapons flow in from large Weapon Smuggling Operations, CSA is suspected!
• Nationalist Chinese break off from China as puppet when special “Free China” events show up. They are based whether or not they have become a puppet. It frees them and makes them declare war.
• The Communist Chinese rise up in ALL the Japanese-Chinese holdings, while the normal base in the mountains also reappears
• Warlords stay the same in size and consistency. Until they get a “Join Bloc” event, where they are forced to become part of a side when that side takes certain areas.
Germany Divided!
- Based on the old ways, now restored by the neo-classicalism of the Third Empire and Restored British Empire, both sides seek to divide Germany for the sake of European peace
• Bavaria restored in South Catholic Germany by predominately Catholic France with its capital at Munich.
• The kingdom of Hanover is restored in the northern Protestant section of Germany, by the predominately Protestant English, at its capital city of Hanover.
• In the center of them is a buffer state, not initially, of course, just for dramatic and symbolic effect, of the Confederacy occupied territory.
• East Germany, including Berlin, is under Russian rule.*
• A neutral Polish state is a buffer between Russia and its East German holdings, starting at the direct back of Berlin, like modern Poland.
• *Eastern Germany should only be added to Russia if they won with the Entente, otherwise they begin Revolution sequence, and Eastern Germany in that special case would then be divided equally. However, Berlin would be CSA occupied because of their perceived neutrality in European affairs.
- Austria-Ottoman Empires fight on, without torment for they have the belief they can win, how ignorant a thought.
- When Austria-Hungary is finally pierced, and it loses Vienna, Prague OR Budapest then Viva la Austrian/Czech/or Hungarian Revolution!
- However, just after the German Surrender an event for a regime change is triggered for Austria-Hungary, if you have no love for losing huge swaths of territory then you have the option to reform quickly!
1. We can’t hold back the storm, we must, in these dark times, stand by the autocrat! (Everything stays the same, except a Fascist is now in power…)
2. Quickly, we must reorganize the government! We will get the people back! I know it! (Becomes Social Liberal Democracy, Autocrat becomes President)
3. Forget power; let some new blood in, I’m DONE! (Government becomes Stalinist, Autocrat abdicates)
- In the end, a constitutional monarch rules anyways! Armistice confirms a greater Austria, composing parts of Germany, Slovenia, Croatia and all of the Czech Republic, sorry Czechys!
- Greater Serbia given freedom and Hungary conceded, all of them become part of the neutral Little Entente*, along with Poland and an enlarged Rumania, Greece tries to join and Bulgaria becomes observer!
- *before this can occur, Rumania, with a huge army, using the new and now protected states as buffers that can’t be used as invasion points, (it was very frustrating), holds its own against all odds with a huge Ottoman Empire, however weakened from its loss of two allies. They both are able to hold out against everything…
- Operation: Singe is a go!
• Let me first apply a bit of a history lesson on desert operations… The Soviet Union had pressed the United States and Britain to open a second front to reduce the pressure of German forces on the Russian troops. An attack on French North Africa was proposed, which would clear the Axis Powers from North Africa, improve naval control of the Mediterranean Sea, and prepare an invasion of Southern Europe in 1943. This strategy depended on surprise, training and above all the British-Held Rock of Gibraltar used as a headquarters for Operation: Torch and the way station to victory.
• Now, again we are faced with the historical dilemma, the forces of the Imperial Ottomans have consumed all of the Middle East in its shadow, from Egypt to Turkey, while neutral independent nations buffer its position. Of course, Operation: Torch could have easily swiped through and took the Ottoman positions, but the most significant difference, and challenge facing the Confederate forces attempting Operation: Singe is the German-Held Rock of Gibraltar AND Ottoman controlled Suez. Egypt, the holder of the canal, was and is the most logical target for Operation: Singe. For any other state would visit happy vengeance upon one’s descent levels, 4.4 each declaration. I doubt the CSA would NOT consider the logical choice. Not to mention, the great population of Coptic Christians within Egypt screaming through Faud I to be allowed their free religion from the bonds of the Islamic Ottomans. Not to mention, the great deal of state’s rights that are so deserved to the Egyptians to be a free and capable nation. Therefore, Egypt must be taken to pry open the Ottomans and rip through their ranks.
• Taking Egypt is also part of a more complex storyline, neither the French nor the British really trust each other, I don’t believe they signed the Entente Cordiale either? That could then pull many alternative arguments to the outcome of war in the Middle East and North Africa. If they distrusted each other, even then in Operation: Torch in our timeline, to make Americans do the fighting primarily, why not now when their distrust of each other’s Empire would be even more open?
• The CSA would, as in my preference game, begin with the liberation of the Sudan and Egypt. Sudan first to bypass the Ottoman forces and ships, but also because it has a good place for a dock, (you may notice my naval base I put in Port Sudan, fitting right?). That and Egypt is out of range of the British bases on the Arabian Peninsula, where the CSA fleet must set sail from.
• Once Sudan was secured, Operation: Singe would start moving rapidly. Firstly, for a more interesting later game, I began the development of the Sudan and later Egypt into economic powerhouses for a future conflict. I started to realize that the CSA would have done the same thing, just as the United States began the Marshall plan in Eastern Europe.
- Operation: Singe begins! Sudan liberated! Confederate beachhead held!
- “Egyptian Reconstruction” Begins, (Sudan is now considered part of Egypt, like it should be historically)
• Massive infrastructure expansion
• Industrial expansion
• Occupied land not annexed, only occupied, government-in-exile
- With the Suez Canal is taken!
• Troops can be quickly transported over France to awaiting CSA transports, which can now enter through the Canal.
• The Ottomans are open.
- Spheres of Power need to be decided at Yalta!
• The EGWPG (Like the League of Nations…) is established.
• Mandates for both African and Middle Eastern nations into each of the ultimate four’s respective “spheres of influence”.
- British sphere of influence in Israel and Iraq
- French sphere of influence in Lebanon and Syria
- The Benin-Sahel must be split, Greater Liberia created!
- Nigeria and Rhodesia declared British!
- North Africa was declared French. Egypt, though declared French, would be given independent rule and admittance to the Entente; however Confederacy plans were allowed a four year mandate to reconstruct its destruction of Egypt.
- Egypt Dispute begins!
• Britain, “Oh… so this is how your going to be?” declares French Gabon and Equatorial Africa part of their Empire.
• South Africa and Britain compromise, Rhodesia splits one half to South Africa the other back to Britain.
• Tunisia resists the rule of France!
• Gabon resists the British!


Here's the Inspiration

The NEW WAR!!!
- Global hostilities reopen with the failure of the EGWPG
- Communist riots in North Germany begin!
- Britain joins with Denmark, the Netherlands, Sweden and Japan to form the “Coalition” under the pretext of fear of Communists.
- Aligning with Belgium, Austria, and Egypt, France establishes the “Neo-Entente” to rival the “Coalition”
- Empire of Brazil constructs South American bloc… all new factor in the war for the Pacific.
• They seek Russian and the Confederate support to tip the scale in their favor. However, both Russia and the Confederacy have disturbed populaces, the last war had consumed so many and the war before that, it was like endless slaughter. The people of Russia, fearful a third devastating war was on the way and the monarchy inevitable drawn to it, rebelled and it has been split into chaotic factions. The Coalition reborn and the Neo-Entente transformed divided Europe by north and south, however, the Confederacy occupied territory would be caught in the middle of a war its populace didn’t want. The Wild card that plucks Russia out of Chaos could be quite telling, but what will that wild card be and how will it tip the scale of power? China, reinvigorated with CSA support and fighting fresh with new technology, will play a pivotal role, but how pivotal and for how long? Egypt, a Superpower built by the sweat and blood of the Dixie planners, could tip the balance for France, but will it last with a British Israel and Iraq off its border? Will French Lebanon and Syria be the deciding factor?

 

[Derfasciti]

.... Why would the CSA annex Ireland? That would be the worst public relations event possible between the U.K. and CSA. I don't think the Brits would like it very much if a supposed ally all of a sudden (and quite unrealistically) usurped what they've considered theirs for centuries upon centuries.

I, again, respectfully point out my personal inability to comprehend exactly why the victorious C.S.A. would intervene so much in places where 1) is not a part of her sphere of influence by any means and 2) would probably not be welcomed by her allies as this was their playground for so long, and finally 3) When the CSA's manpower, by any look through the book, is decidedly very limited and would have to be largely used by garrison duty. Not all of those places aquired by the CSA were friendly to the Confederacy.

"Taking Egypt is also part of a more complex storyline, neither the French nor the British really trust each other, I don’t believe they signed the Entente Cordiale either? That could then pull many alternative arguments to the outcome of war in the Middle East and North Africa. If they distrusted each other, even then in Operation: Torch in our timeline, to make Americans do the fighting primarily, why not now when their distrust of each other’s Empire would be even more open?
• The CSA would, as in my preference game, begin with the liberation of the Sudan and Egypt. Sudan first to bypass the Ottoman forces and ships, but also because it has a good place for a dock, (you may notice my naval base I put in Port Sudan, fitting right?). That and Egypt is out of range of the British bases on the Arabian Peninsula, where the CSA fleet must set sail from."

Forgive my nitpicking. I am by no means trying to seem rude or critical, but I just don't see this happening. You of course, may create it as how you see fit but i'd like to give you my opinion:

According to the above statement, England and France would be suspicious of eachother as they were during Operation Torch. Perhaps, but in this TL England and France have been working together longer and more closesly than OTL. And considering that it's been stated more than a few times that the CSA is the black sheep of the group, and Africa's been their domain for centuries, i'd highly doubt they'd let the CSA in and give them even a remote reason or chance to lay claim to former franco/Anglo possessions.


The control of Egypt would almost assuredly go to Britain, as that had been a country often under the control of, or at least sharing cooperative relations with, Great Britain. And with it, Sudan and most of their former colonies. France's would be returned and Belgium's would be given back to and/or added to French domains. The CSA, by my speculation, wouldn't really have much of a place to go (or a will in the first place.)

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Thanks for all the input guys, once I get a few days to myself I'll add my thoughts on these... Im actually thinking about re-introducing the USSR perhaps in a 'take 2' Rus-civ-war...although realistically speaking it would take USSR a good 5 years (at absolute uber-excellent) industrialisation to get anywhere near OTL- 15 years is probably more accurate...

And I dont think the USA is ideologically close enough in its socialist views to actively help their wayward class brothers...

China/far east is really where Id like for some action to heat up post-OTL-WW2.

So if anyone is feeling further creative impulses and would like to contribute some research, lets look at the far-east area with a view to possible expansion in this theater.

 

[Cap`n Jim]

Thanks for all the input guys, once I get a few days to myself I'll add my thoughts on these... Im actually thinking about re-introducing the USSR perhaps in a 'take 2' Rus-civ-war...although realistically speaking it would take USSR a good 5 years (at absolute uber-excellent) industrialisation to get anywhere near OTL- 15 years is probably more accurate...

And I dont think the USA is ideologically close enough in its socialist views to actively help their wayward class brothers...

China/far east is really where Id like for some action to heat up post-OTL-WW2.

So if anyone is feeling further creative impulses and would like to contribute some research, lets look at the far-east area with a view to possible expansion in this theater.

Well, I'm just gonna go and throw something zanny out there. Super-Mongolia. Okay, that sounds lame, but picture this, take a page from Kaiserreich, Ungern von Sternberg is still in charge of Mongolia, having never been kicked out. Russia collapses. He takes the opportunity to grab some land in the Central Asian territories, and since Ungern-Mongolia is friendly to Japan, maybe some land in China too. Think about it. Could well serve as another 'major partner', give Japan a half-decent ally. Maybe the post-war flashpoint could be to do with Mongolia conspiring to take more territory by causing pro-Mongol revolts in potential new gains.

Pretty crazy, I know, but I feel it'd make a nice stand in for a Communist China type nation. By the by, ever hear of a game called 'Iron Storm'? In it, there's a little something called Russo-Mongolia. Some pretty good ideas involved...

 

[unmerged(35402)]

Far East action, eh?

Well if the Allies (USA/Germany) win, just go with the book. Have Japan demand Siberia, starting a Russo-Japanese War - *especially* if the Russians are preoccupied fighting the new Soviets. Once they've defeated Russia and taken the Far East by event, make an event chain where Japan tries to develop nukes...thus drawing them into a war with the Americans and Germans. THAT would be a crazy war, with Japan having so much territory and time to prepare.

If the Entente (CSA/Britain) wins, Japan probably would not have tried for any white peace with the Americans. Rather, they would have taken Hawaii and pressed on for some West Coast possessions. That would bring them into conflict with the Confederate and British Empires.

So really, regardless of who wins the major war, you can easily start a second.

 

[unmerged(45344)]

.... Why would the CSA annex Ireland? That would be the worst public relations event possible between the U.K. and CSA. I don't think the Brits would like it very much if a supposed ally all of a sudden (and quite unrealistically) usurped what they've considered theirs for centuries upon centuries.

I disagree with your statement that they considered it their own. The UK may have been resigned to their freedom. Its been almost how long since they were freed? I think they would want Northern Ireland, sure, but the whole thing? No. Just as it has been historically with Irish freedom. I have to go on what I know.

Britain would want it to be allied, so no invasions could be launched from it. Ireland has a way of siding with other parties against its common enemy, England. In this case they can either be taken over by a CSA that has been victorious in its own secessionist movement or a renewed British Empire.

I, again, respectfully point out my personal inability to comprehend exactly why the victorious C.S.A. would intervene so much in places where 1) is not a part of her sphere of influence by any means and 2) would probably not be welcomed by her allies as this was their playground for so long, and finally 3) When the CSA's manpower, by any look through the book, is decidedly very limited and would have to be largely used by garrison duty. Not all of those places acquired by the CSA were friendly to the Confederacy.

I should remind you, like the US, the CSA is a brand new concept to Europeans. It has the possibility to really free people and rebuild them with their huge economy. Thats what we have seen with Germany, who, albeit after a few uprisings, subsided and has become a huge American ally.

The CSA has a lot of its own, unique, connotations from those of the United States, a nation based on state rights and secession, freedom and republicanism. The CSA wasn't there to conquer anything, they had a two year mandate in Egypt to rebuild it after Operation: Singe. Also, install a Entente friendly regime in Ireland. Ireland as a cultural brother, a free republican state, possibly with a strong presidential center like that of the South, would share, like Germany, many common cultural cores.

According to the above statement, England and France would be suspicious of eachother as they were during Operation Torch. Perhaps, but in this TL England and France have been working together longer and more closesly than OTL. And considering that it's been stated more than a few times that the CSA is the black sheep of the group, and Africa's been their domain for centuries, i'd highly doubt they'd let the CSA in and give them even a remote reason or chance to lay claim to former franco/Anglo possessions.

The control of Egypt would almost assuredly go to Britain, as that had been a country often under the control of, or at least sharing cooperative relations with, Great Britain. And with it, Sudan and most of their former colonies. France's would be returned and Belgium's would be given back to and/or added to French domains. The CSA, by my speculation, wouldn't really have much of a place to go (or a will in the first place.)

The French are an Empire reborn. France would called on old hereditary rights over Egypt back from Napoleonic times, times that would serve as precedent for most French Empires without the argument of hereditary rule, and would have come into direct confrontation with Britain. We've never really seen a true Imperialist on the French throne since Napoleon, I don't think you can count De Gaulle.

But you can look at him as divine inspiration for a French mind set after the war. France's Imperial place in Europe and old distrust of England, which De Gaulle had plenty of, became the emphasis of his rule. Now you have an even more radical rightist movement with Charles and Petain, who don't lead the Entente, either.

As Belgium is an old claim by France and control of North Africa was a freshly disputed region as of the Great War. It should be reminded that one of the causes of the Great War was imperial expansion in and around northern Africa.

Distrust between the powers after the war and jealousy, especially since the Confederacy would have beefed up the Egyptians based on principles of self-determination, would have brought hostilities to a head in this particular argument.

Even without that help, it controls the Suez Canal and has the largest amount of IC besides South Africa in Africa, wouldn't an Imperial power ready for expansion want such territory? The French, as Imperialists like the British, would ask themselves, how can I get a better deal for my nation?

I think, after WWII especially, in our timeline, even though America and Britain "saved" French bacon and were supposed to be friends since the Great War, the French still voted in De Gaulle who made any integration into NATO impossible, who wanted France to become self-sufficient and protected from outside American capitalism and who had a strong distrust toward the British and frustrated greatly any alliance between Britain and France.

Why then would an even more nationalistic government, if France is capable of that much annoyance, want to be "friendly" toward an English government that had been safe while it was coaxed into two wars that have been fought on its own soil?

Beyond a shadow of a doubt, though, its plausible. Therefore, can be true in an alternative history.

 

[Karagin]

Operation: Singe, could you post a page number and name of the novel (one by Turtledove) that this mentioned in please, since I don't recall reading about it.

 

[unmerged(35402)]

I must say, I don't recall Operation Singe at all. And in this timeline, the CSA is not a bastion of states rights and freedom. It is a strict fascist state with a weak legislature that has no power. States rights have been thoroughly crushed with the invasion and subjication of Louisiana. I can't imagine the Confederates meddling outside the Western Hemisphere except in the case of West African colonies or a war with Japan over California. Featherston just didn't have the motivation for it.

Ireland would be almost certainly annexed back into the British Empire (with partisan activity, of course). They were conquered in the first few chapters of the first book. Remember, these are not nations that we are familiar with. The Entente are not the good guys. France and Russia are fascist states, while Britain is about as far right wing as you can go while still remaining a democracy.

 

[Karagin]

I must say, I don't recall Operation Singe at all. And in this timeline, the CSA is not a bastion of states rights and freedom. It is a strict fascist state with a weak legislature that has no power. States rights have been thoroughly crushed with the invasion and subjication of Louisiana. I can't imagine the Confederates meddling outside the Western Hemisphere except in the case of West African colonies or a war with Japan over California. Featherston just didn't have the motivation for it.

Ireland would be almost certainly annexed back into the British Empire (with partisan activity, of course). They were conquered in the first few chapters of the first book. Remember, these are not nations that we are familiar with. The Entente are not the good guys. France and Russia are fascist states, while Britain is about as far right wing as you can go while still remaining a democracy.

Good points. I think he has his mods mixed up...

On the African point, I don't see the CSA even worrying about them. Jake would look at it like a blight, but one he doesn't have to deal with. I see him looking more towards the other islands of the Carribbean as his next target of invasion. That is if he wins and all...

 

[unmerged(45344)]

Oh... I wasn't referring to the book... so far I'm pretty sure its been about alternate-alternate futures here. Its been about a CSA victory?

So far the Mod has nothing for an Entente victory. Its very boring after the war.

 

[Karagin]

Oh... I wasn't referring to the book... so far I'm pretty sure its been about alternate-alternate futures here. Its been about a CSA victory?

So far the Mod has nothing for an Entente victory. Its very boring after the war.

Which is why HMS was asking for ideas...and for them to work, they need to be some what logical. Alternate history works best when it follows close to what we know and makes the changes that could have happen not complete flights of fanasty like the CSA invading Africa or Russia.

 

[unmerged(35402)]

Exactly. The CSA victory events need to coincide with what probably would have happened *given* the motivations of characters and nations in the book. The CSA is a fascist state that is now the dominant power in North America. Its new neighbors are a Mormon Deseret, a defeated and reduced United States, a weak and dependent Empire of Mexico, and possibly a puppet state (Confederate or Japanese) in California. In the Caribbean, the CSA has conquered Haiti and is probably eyeing the Dominican Republic. In Europe, the Entente has *most likely* conquered the Central Powers and imposed treaties of their own. Japan is an almost invincible empire spanning the western side of the Pacific. Where to go from there?

 

[unmerged(45344)]

I had some thoughts on the East as well. I was thinking, when I watched the Empire of Brazil steal away Argentina, what if they built a navy to rival the Japanese?

I also should say that, mainly because I didn't trade with them, the Japanese had no oil to build or sustain a navy. An American embargo, even though they still had a sizable army that could deal with China, still hurt it beyond repair.

Its fairly easy to say that Japan would have been an easily subdued enemy without a navy big enough to defend every side of its Empire, even though that had been mostly true in WWII, it had became the same in the Confederate Pacific.

I could see them trying to expand into the United States... but they would lose a HUGE trading partner and it would harm them greatly.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Which is why HMS was asking for ideas...and for them to work, they need to be some what logical. Alternate history works best when it follows close to what we know and makes the changes that could have happen not complete flights of fanasty like the CSA invading Africa or Russia.

Its not far flung... how else should the Middle east be liberated? I looked at the situation a few times. I don't remember any where, where I said anything about Russia. I have been filled with logical ideas, from what I know historically and within the storyline of the book series, which I might remind you was based on historic fact.

Otherwise it, to, like your false interpretation of my ideas, would be named fantasy and not alternate history. I've read Harry Turtledove widely, I'll admit not his Civil War series, but I understand his effort to stay along historical lines. My storyline for an after war dominated by the CSA were of course my historic interpretation of the American role in the waning days of WWII, their help with reconstruction and occupation which has created the Europe of today.

I'll admit, once again, that I did not known about the construct of the CSA. My ideas came from what I thought to do with the CSA. I was, actually, going to have a bit of a storyline that would install what I saw about a Freedom Party, I guess what is considered a basic duplication of the Dixiecrat Party.

I should remind that a state can still have connotations in name alone, rather then actually stand, at home anyways, for those connotations. Historically, I look at it like the French Revolution. A Revolution for general representation, gone awry with the conservative reaction of Napoleon, ending the revolution that began the Napoleonic War. Other nations still saw France as a hotbed of revolutionary Republicanism that could sallow their nations in popular sovereignty and nationalism.

 

[unmerged(35402)]

I'm not sure the Middle East *should* be liberated. The Ottoman Empire has won the war. It has undoubtedly gobbled up more of the Russian Empire and is probably threatening even the Italian (neutral) colonies in the region. Yes, it's not the strongest power in the world, but it has an alliance with Germany (a nuclear power) that will assist in putting down any rebellion.

None of this is meant to put down your ideas, Brote Heckler. I was just trying to set you straight on how the war went down in the books. You're obviously an excellent storyteller and now that you know the full background, you can likely adapt to create some really cool stuff.

 

[Karagin]

Its not far flung... how else should the Middle east be liberated? I looked at the situation a few times. I don't remember any where, where I said anything about Russia. I have been filled with logical ideas, from what I know historically and within the storyline of the book series, which I might remind you was based on historic fact.

Otherwise it, to, like your false interpretation of my ideas, would be named fantasy and not alternate history. I've read Harry Turtledove widely, I'll admit not his Civil War series, but I understand his effort to stay along historical lines. My storyline for an after war dominated by the CSA were of course my historic interpretation of the American role in the waning days of WWII, their help with reconstruction and occupation which has created the Europe of today.

I'll admit, once again, that I did not known about the construct of the CSA. My ideas came from what I thought to do with the CSA. I was, actually, going to have a bit of a storyline that would install what I saw about a Freedom Party, I guess what is considered a basic duplication of the Dixiecrat Party.

I should remind that a state can still have connotations in name alone, rather then actually stand, at home anyways, for those connotations. Historically, I look at it like the French Revolution. A Revolution for general representation, gone awry with the conservative reaction of Napoleon, ending the revolution that began the Napoleonic War. Other nations still saw France as a hotbed of revolutionary Republicanism that could sallow their nations in popular sovereignty and nationalism.

Yes it is far flung and way out there. There is NO reason for the CSA to get mixed up in Africa, it doesn't have the logistical ability to deal with an empire in Africa, it would be more focused on what is readily there to grab ie the Caribbean Islands and Central America as well as South America, shorter lines of communication for them to guard and control. Plus they have a better chance of grabbing off New Mexico and Arizonia from the US as well California then they do of going off to Europe and taking land there or even venturing into Africa. Tangling with Japan would be short term fights, take Hawaii and try to keep it, nothing beyond that. They don't have the factories to fight that kind of war and it's not what Jake would want. His focus was beat the US, beat the folks who felt stabbed the CSA in the back and remove the other folks who he felt threatened the safety of the CSA. Going after Africa wouldn't and didn't enter his mind or if it did Turtledove never mentioned it.

And given that this Mod is based on the Turtledove novels about the CSA in WW2 setting, it has to be handled in that light. Also if you want to comment back please don't put in a small font size as if you are hiding your comments.

 

[Nietzsche]

...first off, there's major problems with your "Post Entente Victory" map.

Germany wouldn't be done that way. France would get the Aslace back, her colonies, and possibly the Saar, and Germany have massive economic restrictions put on it. It's idiotic to think they'd take western Prussia from them. It's entirely...just wouldn't work. Border changes would be reasonably minimal. Remember, Europe has had German Domination for quite a while, that just isn't going to change over night.

For the Americas: Why not give the Confeds West Virgina, Missouri, and the Arizona territories?

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Well, its certainly nice to see the thread has still got some traffic coming through and that it still inspires people to talk about the mod...it really is a shame that we are now moving into territory beyond the mod (although that said I did not really like how HT finished the series)

Regarding Confederate empires and such, personally I fall into the camp that thinks given the fascist outlook of Jake Featherston personally, his strategic vision is obviously for the most part continentally based and focused on revenge on the USA.

If Freedom CSA had won the war and Jake did begin to look beyond his immediate borders (which in itself could be unlikely given his personal disposition), domination of the carribean as a CS lake is obviously the next logical step...after that...bringing mexico (poss California) more closely into the CS sphere. After that- perhaps some limited moves into the pacific.

If there was going to be any CS involvement in Europe, Africa or the middle east, I personally think it would only come either in the form of a similar to OTL occupation zone of Germany (possiblt given that what, 90% of US military output OTL went to the pacific theater...CSA could possibly devote a bigger % and therefore make it feasible). Same for middle east.

I can only really see a confederate empire in Africa if Jake was out of power, as I dont think his personality has the level of scope needed for such a venture. Someone else in power....notch it up to a maybe, but even then I dont really see this situation as very likely at all.

Getting back to my far east/pacific think tank...we need to come up with credible alternatives to OTL conflicts eg-

First Indochina War.
Korean War.
Perhaps an early Cuban Missile crisis (given this TL's early nukes and we can theorise perhaps early missle tech) (although this game does not really simulate very well the fear and destructive potentinal of nukes)

This may be more difficult given Japan's likely domination of the region but still- give it your best shot. Some research into commie groups might be cool as well. The conflicts do not have to be in the places these conflicts were per-say. Analogs in other places- phillippines perhaps for example, may be cool...