The "new" tech mechanic feels too bland compared to older version

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Kryndude

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Don't get me wrong, it's certainly an improvement from the previous mechanic where countries were fixated to their arbitrary tech group and were forced to "westernize" all the time regardless of what alternate history you were forging, but the new institution system also has its downside of feeling too bland. Dev pushing for institutions is too easy and they spread too easily to neighboring countries once you adopt them, giving you barely any technological advantage for being an early adopter. I don't know if it's politically incorrect to realistically depict European dominance during the later periods of EU4, but playing outside of Europe (or outside of any region that happens to spawn the latest institution in the game) should feel like an actual challenge. It should feel like you're at a major disadvantage and fighting for survival against the invading colonizers.
 
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randomgamer71

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No, you don't understand. I'm not trying to say that Europe should always have tech advantage. It's the exact opposite. I'm saying that conditions to spawn and spread institution should be more organic and game-play oriented instead of the current dev pushing. And also make it more difficult to catch up when you're behind in tech to better represent the actual tech gap that existed during the colonial era, regardless of which civilization acquires that tech advantage in the EU4 universe.
MEIUO & TAXES 3.0 is trying to do something really interesting about it.

check it out
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/threads/m-t-3-0-dev-diary-10-institutions.1349638/
 

blobdomp

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Fixing the way development works by making a "stackable cooldown", meaning allowing multiple pushes, but having development take time to tick, would already be a better way to represent the institution spawning, however, as the OP states, the institution requirements should also be tweaked for institutions to depend more on what you did with yoru country than on where you are.

Of course, Italy should still have the renaissance the great majority of the times, because it's just 6 years away at the start of every game and you can't really expect the fabric of the world to change in that time, but all the others should be up to grab with the right incentive.

That said, which modifiers should be used exactly? I'm talking here as much about institution center spawning as I talk about institution ticking.

Having the innovative idea group and innovativeness comes to mind for every one of them.

Global trade could depend also on having the Trade idea group, having happy and influential burghers, a high share of trade and maybe a high mercantilism could also do the job.

Printing press could loosely be paired with humanism/religious, as people want to have their version of the truth go out or want to support tolerance. I originally thought about only humanism, but then I remembered reading that old good protestants weren't all that much for tolerance.

Then you could surely think about other ways to hook other game mechanics to the institutions spawning. Just be careful to not give too much weight on some modifiers or to make it incomprehensible with tons of modifiers affecting litterally nothing.
MEIOu4 mod is implementing a system similar to your suggestion.

the difference? they have way more complexity in country management then base game. In MEIOU4 they are adding pops, industry, realistic trade, etc. you cant do what you suggest in the game without either making the game more complex for internal management, or making it super easy to spawn institutions
 
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Talez

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Seconded. I don't know what the solution would be, but seeing subsaharan Africa being just one or two techs behind the British Empire in 1800 doesn't seem right.
 
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Arizal

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@blobdomp I tried MEIOU a while ago, but the interface didn't please me. The main problem I have is that they are patching so many things over systems which weren't designed to work that way, using events and ad hoc menus to make it work...
 

blobdomp

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@blobdomp I tried MEIOU a while ago, but the interface didn't please me. The main problem I have is that they are patching so many things over systems which weren't designed to work that way, using events and ad hoc menus to make it work...
i only bring it up, to show your suggestion could work, but would require many more systems to already be in place
 
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Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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I for one would prefer if the tech discrepancy in the game became far more significant and drastic as the game dragged on. As it is pretty much the entire world is on pair by 1800, this shouldn't be the case, differences should be much, much larger.

Institutions should not spread around so quickly (I'd lower the base value of all spreading factors by half, or even a quarter), and they shouldn't be so easy to embrace either (it should require it to be present in at least 25% or 34% of the country, you shouldn't be able to just buy it immediately once you got it in one province).

Institutions shouldn't be railroaded to be contained in Europe of course, but very weighted to remain more or less contained, unless the player in the RTOW does the right things to keep up.
The "right things" of course, shouldn't be force-developing a province like it is now, people above me already pointed it out, there should be more, and more organical ways of spawning and spreading institutions.

Another thing that bothers me is the way unit pips vary depending on technological group.
Western Units start as the worst, and then become the best later on, what's the logic on that?
Western Europe didn't magically become "better at fighting" with time, the reason of their military dominance was superior technology.
Honestly this pip discrepancy seems like band-aid to abstract Western late game performance, despite the lack of any significant technological discrepancy.
Fix the lack of tech discrepancy and pip differences will become obsolete.

I also see no reason why Western Units should be inferior to anyone else's units at the early technology levels, an argument can be made about specific cases, such as steppe cavalry being superior at the same tech level early on, or Anatolian Infantry... but that's as far as it goes.
And at the same time I don't see why western units should be superior later on against non-westerners at the same tech level (Their advantage should come mostly from tech superiority, in an hypotethical scenario they are fighting a non-western enemy with on-pair technology I don't see why westerners deserve an inherent advantage)

I'm not saying to get rid of pip differences altogether, sometimes pip differences are necessary, example:
Native American units should be considerably superior to western ones at the same level in the early techs to compensate the fact that Native Americans should be lagging behind MASSIVELY on military tech (consider they didn't even have iron weapons by the Spanish arrival), I'd say Mesoamerica should still be on Mil Tech 2-3 by the European arrival, as opposed to the 7-8 of the Europeans, in this situation It would justified to give Native Americans superior pips, otherwise the tech difference would make it a literally unplayable massacre.

However, sometimes these differences are not justified, counter-example:
The western group has the worst infantry and cavalry pips in the entire game by mil tech 8-9, which is 1505-1518 technology. Why is that?
There is no logic why the western group should underperform in comparison to the ROTW at tech levels 8-9, in fact, the limited examples we have of Western vs ROTW combat at tech 8-9 seem to actually favour the quality of Western troops:
By 1515, the Portuguese had fought dozens of (very successful) battles against the African group, the Muslim group, the Indian Group and the Chinese group, on their turf and heavily outnumbered. And it clearly wasn't "tech discrepancy" or anything of the sort, considering their foes in India, Indonesia and Arabia also had cannons (so they were at least tech 7).

As far as the late techs are concerned, I also don't see why the Western group should overperform either, In fact I would argue that depending on how railroaded Europe is to get ahead on tech, maybe they should actually underperform later on, for balance reasons.
Don't take me the wrong way, they would still probably stomp the ROTW, but not because their pips are "inherently better", but because they are like 7 tech levels ahead.
 
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blobdomp

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I for one would prefer if the tech discrepancy in the game became far more significant and drastic as the game dragged on. As it is pretty much the entire world is on pair by 1800, this shouldn't be the case, differences should be much, much larger.

Institutions should not spread around so quickly (I'd lower the base value of all spreading factors by half, or even a quarter), and they shouldn't be so easy to embrace either (it should require it to be present in at least 25% or 34% of the country, you shouldn't be able to just buy it immediately once you got it in one province).

Institutions shouldn't be railroaded to be contained in Europe of course, but very weighted to remain more or less contained, unless the player in the RTOW does the right things to keep up.
The "right things" of course, shouldn't be force-developing a province like it is now, people above me already pointed it out, there should be more, and more organical ways of spawning and spreading institutions.

Another thing that bothers me is the way unit pips vary depending on technological group.
Western Units start as the worst, and then become the best later on, what's the logic on that?
Western Europe didn't magically become "better at fighting" with time, the reason of their military dominance was superior technology.
Honestly this pip discrepancy seems like a band-aid to abstract the (lack of) any significant technological discrepancy in the game.

I see no reason why Western Units should be inferior to anyone else's units at the early technology levels, an argument can be made about specific cases, such as steppe cavalry being superior at the same tech level early on, or Anatolian Infantry... but that's as far as it goes.
And at the same time I don't see why western units should be superior later on against non-westerners at the same tech level (Their advantage should come mostly from tech superiority, in an hypotethical scenario they are fighting a non-western enemy with on-pair technology I don't see why they deserve an inherent advantage)

I'm not saying to get rid of pip differences, sometimes pip differences are necessary, example:
Native American units should be considerably superior to western ones at the same level in the early techs to compensate the fact that Native Americans should be lagging behind MASSIVELY on military tech (consider they didn't even have iron weapons by the Spanish arrival), I'd say Mesoamerica should still be on Mil Tech 2-3 by the European arrival, as opposed to the 7-8 of the Europeans, in this situation I would justify giving Native Americans superior pips otherwise it would be a literally unplayable massacre.

However, sometimes these differences are not justified, counter-example:
The western group has the worst infantry and cavalry pips in the entire game by mil tech 8-9, which is 1505-1518 technology. Why?
There is no logic why the western group should underperform in comparison to the ROTW at tech levels 8-9, in fact, the limited examples we have of Western vs RTW combat at tech 8-9 seem to actually favour the quality of Western troops:
By 1515, the Portuguese had fought dozens of (very successful) battles against the African group, the Muslim group, the Indian Group and the Chinese group, on their turf and heavily outnumbered. And it clearly wasn't "tech discrepancy" or anything of the sort, considering their foes in India, Indonesia and Arabia also had cannons (so at least tech 7)

As far as the late techs are concerned, I also don't see why the Western group should overperform either, In fact I would argue that depending on how railroaded Europe is to get ahead on tech, maybe they should actually underperform later on, for balance reasons.
Don't take me the wrong way, they would still probably stomp the ROTW, but not because their pips are "inherently better", but because they are like 7 tech levels ahead.
7 techs ahead on mil is too much. historically china didnt get conquered by europeans, if the europeans had 7 mil tech it would be easy to do
 

Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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7 techs ahead on mil is too much. historically china didnt get conquered by europeans, if the europeans had 7 mil tech it would be easy to do
7 techs ahead of the ones further behind, China wouldn't be that further behind, maybe only about 3-4 behind.

I imagine a realistic 1820 to look something like:
Western Europe: tech 32
Eastern Europe: tech 31
Ottoman Empire: tech 30
MENA/Japan: tech 29
China: tech 28
India/SEA: tech 27
Sub-Saharan Africa: tech 26
Unreformed American/Siberian tribes: 25

Also, note that my 7 tech discrepancy example was in a context that Western Units would have lower pips than the ROTW on the later technologies (so it wouldn't be such an overkill).

Finally, it should also be relevant noting that this discrepancy would only reach this stage by the end of the game, up untill the 1750's it should be barely noticeable, and then it would skyrocket after the industrial revolution.
Let's say you have a 4 tech difference over China in 1810, sure you might stomp them in a war, but are you really going to be able to conquer it them in time? The game is basically over by this point.
 
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blobdomp

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7 techs ahead of the ones further behind, China wouldn't be that further behind, maybe only about 3-4 behind.
But sure you can tweak the numbers around a bit.
I imagine a realistic 1820 to look something like:
Western Europe: tech 32
Eastern Europe: tech 31
Ottoman Empire: tech 30
MENA/Japan: tech 29
China: tech 28
India/SEA: tech 27
Sub-Saharan Africa: tech 26
Unreformed American/Siberian tribes: 25

And that's exactly why I said Western Units should have lower pips than the ROTW on the later technologies.
To compensate the fact they should be much ahead (without completely breaking the game balance).
non tech factors (like army meritocracy and organization) historically were not behind in europe, usually they were better on those.
 

Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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non tech factors (like army meritocracy and organization) historically were not behind in europe, usually they were better on those.
So, you agree with me, since i'm arguing for the final levels of Western tech units to have equal or maybe even inferior pips compared to the ROTW.
The core of my argument is that the western late game advantage should be exclusively tied to being ahead on technology and not from having an arbitrary pip advantage despite not being technologically ahead.
 

blobdomp

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So, you agree with me, since i'm arguing for the final levels of Western tech units to have equal or maybe even inferior pips compared to the ROTW.
The core of my argument is that the western late game advantage should be exclusively tied to being ahead on technology and not from having an arbitrary pip advantage despite not being technologically ahead.
maybe you misread what i said, i mean that the europeans were ahead in terms of meritocracy and army organization, so should have more pips on later units. I do agree it should rely on tech advantage and give euros more tech.
 

Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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maybe you misread what i said, i mean that the europeans were ahead in terms of meritocracy and army organization, so should have more pips on later units. I do agree it should rely on tech advantage and give euros more tech.
Either way, that is also represented by technology advantage. Since technology not only increases fire and shock damage (which one can only assume to be superior and more advanced weaponry and equipment) but tactics and morale (which represent the institutional and organizational advancements not related to equipment).

My argument for Western Units to have inferior pips later on is really just a game balance argument, and not based in reality, simply to avoid them steamrolling everyone else due to having superior technology. But this can also be achieved by simply making tech difference less decisive in the last couple of techs.

There are many ways to achieve balance while still allowing for more visible late game tech differences.
 

Arizal

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@Bandua_of_Gallaecia Great point about the pips. I would go further, though. I have no idea why this feature didn't disappear when the institutions were introduced. Or maybe pips should be increased by relevant things, like idea groups and modifiers. Maybe it could be a way to get rid of the tripartition of the military and allow different units. Infantry shooting from behind could become archers, for example.

I would like to be still able to play, say, a South East Asian country, and have all the institutions at the end, while having *most of the time* an historical set up where Europe is ahead of the world at the end of the game. How? Certainly not by letting in the game a feature that the AI can't use. Maybe by making it difficult, but not impossible, to reform society. There are some events speeding up institutions, but they are nothing compared to what westernization was.
 
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Bandua_of_Gallaecia

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would like to be still able to play, say, a South East Asian country, and have all the institutions at the end, while having *most of the time* an historical set up where Europe is ahead of the world at the end of the game.
Yes of course, the player should be able to play its cards right and get all the institutions.
However, "playing the cards right" should have more to it than sinking 700 mp into developing a pastoral backwater into a thriving metropolis overnight, and then sinking 3000 ducats into "buying Enlightenment".
 
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Yes of course, the player should be able to play its cards right and get all the institutions.
However, "playing the cards right" should have more to it than sinking 700 mp into developing a pastoral backwater into a thriving metropolis overnight, and then sinking 3000 ducats into "buying Enlightenment".

I think we are all of the same mind about the criticism to the current system. EUIV is surprisingly shallow strategically in that regard. As almost any country, I sacrifice my first ADM and DIP points to spawn renaissance in my capital, and then reap the benefit of more money, especially if the country is small, and cheaper tech for the next 40 years or so.

It's more tricky to do it later on, especially when playing outside Europe and not drowning in monarch points.

Something tells me facilitating technological changes didn't require just having a more urbanized country...
 
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blobdomp

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Either way, that is also represented by technology advantage. Since technology not only increases fire and shock damage (which one can only assume to be superior and more advanced weaponry and equipment) but tactics and morale (which represent the institutional and organizational advancements not related to equipment).

My argument for Western Units to have inferior pips later on is really just a game balance argument, and not based in reality, simply to avoid them steamrolling everyone else due to having superior technology. But this can also be achieved by simply making tech difference less decisive in the last couple of techs.

There are many ways to achieve balance while still allowing for more visible late game tech differences.
i still don think westerners should get pip disavantage.
however, i think there should be ways to increase unit pips, without tech, to fight off more advanced country (of course more advanced country can also do these)