The "new" tech mechanic feels too bland compared to older version

[Kryndude]

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly an improvement from the previous mechanic where countries were fixated to their arbitrary tech group and were forced to "westernize" all the time regardless of what alternate history you were forging, but the new institution system also has its downside of feeling too bland. Dev pushing for institutions is too easy and they spread too easily to neighboring countries once you adopt them, giving you barely any technological advantage for being an early adopter. I don't know if it's politically incorrect to realistically depict European dominance during the later periods of EU4, but playing outside of Europe (or outside of any region that happens to spawn the latest institution in the game) should feel like an actual challenge. It should feel like you're at a major disadvantage and fighting for survival against the invading colonizers.

 

[Zohtun]

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly an improvement from the previous mechanic where countries were fixated to their arbitrary tech group and were forced to "westernize" all the time regardless of what alternate history you were forging, but the new institution system also has its downside of feeling too bland. Dev pushing for institutions is too easy and they spread too easily to neighboring countries once you adopt them, giving you barely any technological advantage for being an early adopter. I don't know if it's politically incorrect to realistically depict European dominance during the later periods of EU4, but playing outside of Europe (or outside of any region that happens to spawn the latest institution in the game) should feel like an actual challenge. It should feel like you're at a major disadvantage and fighting for survival against the invading colonizers.

Certainly developing an institute feels really bad right now. You sink hundreds of points into creating a new institute, only for your neighbour to actually embrace it FIRST because your nation is larger than theirs and thus they could embrace it first.

Some sort of slow-down wherein a nation only gets the province tick to gain an institute if either 1) They own the other province in question or 2) The province next to them who has the institute has embraced (meaning that it merely being present is just not sufficient) it would grant a nice compromise of crippling the regions while still allowing for a way to forge an ahistorical outcome...for a large price in mana.

 

[Kryndude]

Certainly developing an institute feels really bad right now. You sink hundreds of points into creating a new institute, only for your neighbour to actually embrace it FIRST because your nation is larger than theirs and thus they could embrace it first.

Some sort of slow-down wherein a nation only gets the province tick to gain an institute if either 1) They own the other province in question or 2) The province next to them who has the institute has embraced (meaning that it merely being present is just not sufficient) it would grant a nice compromise of crippling the regions while still allowing for a way to forge an ahistorical outcome...for a large price in mana.

I thoroughly agree. To add to what you said, adopting new institutions should be more than just dev pushing. It's like the Imperial Authority mechanic before PDX changed it. It feels too gamey and unrealistic. I suggest adding much more diverse set of requirements for each institution and make it so that you gain institution spread only by meeting those requirements.

 

[moscal]

Lack of this would lead to situations, where in Multiplayer games play as non-european-country isn't sense.

 

[Kryndude]

Lack of this would lead to situations, where in Multiplayer games play as non-european-country isn't sense.

EU4 isn't supposed to be a fair game, and I'm not suggesting that Europe should always have tech advantage like before. All I'm asking is to add a bit of strategic element to the institution mechanic other than just saving up monarch points and pressing buttons.

 

[moscal]

EU4 isn't supposed to be a fair game, and I'm not suggesting that Europe should always have tech advantage like before. All I'm asking is to add a bit of strategic element to the institution mechanic other than just saving up monarch points and pressing buttons.

Why Europe should have ALWAYS tech advantage? By long time Europe hadn't tech advantage in period EU4. By long time Turks had better method of administration, better military technologies than Europe. Indian empires or Persia by long time had more advanced method of production than Europe. It is estimated that the perceptible euro-tech advantage began in the XVII century. Source was main in fact, that non-european empires made many wrong things. Not "because destiny".

But we have here alt-historican options! There possible is situations, when Europe make things to reduction of own power.

Europe collapse in never-ending cyrcle of religious wars, because reformation. 90% lands of Europe is in high devastations, central powers use mass exploiting of developments, monarchies ruled by fanatics catholics, protestants, hussites and reformeds. Mass massacres very close to genocide. Due to the devastation of war, the population is suffering from hunger. Hunger weakens immunity. Europe is experiencing another great plague. The abundance of deserters, marauders and other rogues make trade dangerous. Nobody go to universitetes, because lack of funding and patronage. Nobody is interesant non-military elements, because this is never-ending circle of wars. Extermination is more imporant that science, humanism, books, arts, explorations etc.

Do in this situation Europe also should have tech advantage?

Current Europe have advantage. Firsts institutions start in Europe. Player in other place must invest more own monarch power to developing own provinces, when european players can only waiting. Owned monarch powers can invest in other things eg. ideas, coring etc.

 

[Kryndude]

Why Europe should have ALWAYS tech advantage? By long time Europe hadn't tech advantage in period EU4. By long time Turks had better method of administration, better military technologies than Europe. Indian empires or Persia by long time had more advanced method of production than Europe. It is estimated that the perceptible euro-tech advantage began in the XVII century. Source was main in fact, that non-european empires made many wrong things. Not "because destiny".

But we have here alt-historican options! There possible is situations, when Europe make things to reduction of own power.

Europe collapse in never-ending cyrcle of religious wars, because reformation. 90% lands of Europe is in high devastations, central powers use mass exploiting of developments, monarchies ruled by fanatics catholics, protestants, hussites and reformeds. Mass massacres very close to genocide. Due to the devastation of war, the population is suffering from hunger. Hunger weakens immunity. Europe is experiencing another great plague. The abundance of deserters, marauders and other rogues make trade dangerous. Nobody go to universitetes, because lack of funding and patronage. Nobody is interesant non-military elements, because this is never-ending circle of wars. Extermination is more imporant that science, humanism, books, arts, explorations etc.

Do in this situation Europe also should have tech advantage?

Current Europe have advantage. Firsts institutions start in Europe. Player in other place must invest more own monarch power to developing own provinces, when european players can only waiting. Owned monarch powers can invest in other things eg. ideas, coring etc.

No, you don't understand. I'm not trying to say that Europe should always have tech advantage. It's the exact opposite. I'm saying that conditions to spawn and spread institution should be more organic and game-play oriented instead of the current dev pushing. And also make it more difficult to catch up when you're behind in tech to better represent the actual tech gap that existed during the colonial era, regardless of which civilization acquires that tech advantage in the EU4 universe.

 

[Me_]

Yeah, the current system is poorly balanced and does not create tech disparity anywhere. Even if all institutions end up spawned in say Japan, by late game it (Japan) will have the same tech level as Africa, South America or any other random place.

Why Europe should have ALWAYS tech advantage?

Oh boy, that is some heavy case of not even reading the first sentence or deliberately trolling.

 

[moscal]

Oh boy, that is some heavy case of not even reading the first sentence or deliberately trolling.

My mistake, not trolling Too fast read

 

[blobdomp]

the problem could be partially solved, by fixing the dev system. when you dev an institution you take an 8 dev province and turn it into 30 dev province in a day. if there was some sort of cooldown, or if development wasnt just a matter of spending mana, the current way it works would be fine

 

[Eruth]

Don't get me wrong, it's certainly an improvement from the previous mechanic where countries were fixated to their arbitrary tech group and were forced to "westernize" all the time regardless of what alternate history you were forging, but the new institution system also has its downside of feeling too bland. Dev pushing for institutions is too easy and they spread too easily to neighboring countries once you adopt them, giving you barely any technological advantage for being an early adopter. I don't know if it's politically incorrect to realistically depict European dominance during the later periods of EU4, but playing outside of Europe (or outside of any region that happens to spawn the latest institution in the game) should feel like an actual challenge. It should feel like you're at a major disadvantage and fighting for survival against the invading colonizers.

It's not about political correctness, it's about game balance. It obviously has to be somewhat harder to play ROTW but it they make it realistically hard to play in, say, the Americas, then no one is going to actually be able to do more than maybe survive a tiny bit. I'll take a certain measure of balance over accuracy in the interest of making non-European parts of the world fun to play in rather than excruciatingly frustrating as soon as Europe shows up.

 

[blobdomp]

It's not about political correctness, it's about game balance. It obviously has to be somewhat harder to play ROTW but it they make it realistically hard to play in, say, the Americas, then no one is going to actually be able to do more than maybe survive a tiny bit. I'll take a certain measure of balance over accuracy in the interest of making non-European parts of the world fun to play in rather than excruciatingly frustrating as soon as Europe shows up.

not all players just want easy game. some of us want challenge. if you want easy game play in europe, let us good players have challenges

 

[Eruth]

not all players just want easy game. some of us want challenge. if you want easy game play in europe, let us good players have challenges

There's a difference between 'Challenge' and 'impossible'. Playing American Natives is currently a challenge; if the plague that wiped out 90% of the people in the Americas and from which the first nations never recovered from was accurately represented, doing anything like the No Trail of Tears achievement would be impossible.

 

[blobdomp]

There's a difference between 'Challenge' and 'impossible'. Playing American Natives is currently a challenge; if the plague that wiped out 90% of the people in the Americas and from which the first nations never recovered from was accurately represented, doing anything like the No Trail of Tears achievement would be impossible.

no it wouldnt. because as a player you know the europeans are coming 50 years before real world natives knew

 

[Eruth]

no it wouldnt. because as a player you know the europeans are coming 50 years before real world natives knew

Just because you know a plague will kill 90% of your people in 50 years doesn't mean you can prevent the plague from killing 90% of your people. IRL several native groups were able to adopt European technology and even defeat the Europeans in battle a few times but they simply did not have the population to be able to put up any resistance on a scale that would allow for a fun playthrough once the colonizers get their eye on you.

 

[blobdomp]

Just because you know a plague will kill 90% of your people in 50 years doesn't mean you can prevent the plague from killing 90% of your people. IRL several native groups were able to adopt European technology and even defeat the Europeans in battle a few times but they simply did not have the population to be able to put up any resistance on a scale that would allow for a fun playthrough once the colonizers get their eye on you.

you can move away. in my opinion this shouldnt be some arcade game where even as a native american tribe you conquer world, it should be difficult and even surviving to end as them is big achievement

 

[Eruth]

you can move away. in my opinion this shouldnt be some arcade game where even as a native american tribe you conquer world, it should be difficult and even surviving to end as them is big achievement

Move away? Where too? As soon as you come into contact with the Europeans you’re gonna get hit with plague. Besides, what the point of playing like that? It does not sound in any way fun to play as a native OPM who just retreats into the Rockies and does nothing until the plague wipes you out; the fun of a native game is getting strong enough to survive the Europeans

 

[blobdomp]

Move away? Where too? As soon as you come into contact with the Europeans you’re gonna get hit with plague. Besides, what the point of playing like that? It does not sound in any way fun to play as a native OPM who just retreats into the Rockies and does nothing until the plague wipes you out; the fun of a native game is getting strong enough to survive the Europeans

well some people dont want to just blob endlessly they want a challenge

 

[Eruth]

well some people dont want to just blob endlessly they want a challenge

A challenge is something that is difficult but possible to overcome. Accurately representing the new world plague would not make natives challenging: it would make them impossible. Some concessions to gameplay must be made to allow natives to be fun for people who like working towards goals rather than simply waiting to die with nothing they can do about it.

 

[Arizal]

Fixing the way development works by making a "stackable cooldown", meaning allowing multiple pushes, but having development take time to tick, would already be a better way to represent the institution spawning, however, as the OP states, the institution requirements should also be tweaked for institutions to depend more on what you did with yoru country than on where you are.

Of course, Italy should still have the renaissance the great majority of the times, because it's just 6 years away at the start of every game and you can't really expect the fabric of the world to change in that time, but all the others should be up to grab with the right incentive.

That said, which modifiers should be used exactly? I'm talking here as much about institution center spawning as I talk about institution ticking.

Having the innovative idea group and innovativeness comes to mind for every one of them.

Global trade could depend also on having the Trade idea group, having happy and influential burghers, a high share of trade and maybe a high mercantilism could also do the job.

Printing press could loosely be paired with humanism/religious, as people want to have their version of the truth go out or want to support tolerance. I originally thought about only humanism, but then I remembered reading that old good protestants weren't all that much for tolerance.

Then you could surely think about other ways to hook other game mechanics to the institutions spawning. Just be careful to not give too much weight on some modifiers or to make it incomprehensible with tons of modifiers affecting litterally nothing.