The new "Maginot" aspect of the AI makes Offensive a no brainer.

  • We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
I think by now most people who played the beta noticed the new AI love for forts.

Which makes Offensive, a previously already quite good pick, now an EXCELLENT one.

What are your thoughts on this?
 
  • 2
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Orkonkel

General
73 Badges
Aug 12, 2011
1.926
1.725
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Pride of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Victoria 2
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
It was already a no brainer imho
I think depending on your nation, you may want to pick quantity for manpower/force limit and once you have infinite cash to upgrade monuments and grabbed military hegemony you can swap quantity to offensive (unless you're dropping something else for two military ideas).
 
  • 3
  • 2
Reactions:

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
Why even consider quantity in this version? If you can,'t Stack wipe then quantity only delays situations you could have won with Offensive. Quantity doesn't help with sieging.
 
  • 6
Reactions:

Damedius

Lt. General
80 Badges
May 28, 2012
1.203
1.289
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
I think by now most people who played the beta noticed the new AI love for forts.

Which makes Offensive, a previously already quite good pick, now an EXCELLENT one.

What are your thoughts on this?
How can they afford those forts though?

There are very few countries that can actually afford to use a significant amount of forts in the early game.
 
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Beagá

Banned
74 Badges
May 27, 2007
13.783
4.044
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • For The Glory
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
Don't ask me How the AI works. What IS undeniable in the beta IS How much the AI likes forts.
 
  • 2
  • 1Haha
Reactions:

Ferdinand_Bardamu

Second Lieutenant
Feb 2, 2022
195
633
Men of culture pick Offensive.

Just joking.

But seriously, the siege ability, discipline and better generals is far more important than anything else. Quantity just gives you more men, which can be bought via professionalism anyway,
 
  • 4Like
  • 2
Reactions:

The_Boominator

Second Lieutenant
46 Badges
Oct 9, 2021
149
226
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 -  Back to Hell
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
Quantity is a good idea group for letting your nation punch over its weight. Because AI seldom makes it as their first idea group, you can usually pick up a fair bit of innovativeness by going through it (which saves monarch power over the course of the game), plus the boosts to manpower and manpower recovery are excellent.
Offensive can make wars more decisive (in that they are won faster), but quantity shortens the peace between wars and I find it generally scales better in the early game. Whereas offensive has force multipliers, quantity lets you increase the size (literally multiply) and depth of your force itself.
Offensive is also far more economical, since more troops means more costs.

Overall, I'd say the new changes makes offensive more competitive early on and pretty much essential for any land power, but I hesitate to say it's the best military idea group now. Different strokes for different folks.
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Atey

Captain
38 Badges
May 2, 2018
464
1.743
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
Try as you may, the meta will stay starting with Quantity as the first military idea unless the next beta version nerfs it. I'm so tired of it being so powerful.

I’m pretty sure the meta was starting Quality and then immediately going Economic for the 10% discipline this combination offers. Has something changed?
 

qer

Lt. General
26 Badges
Nov 12, 2011
1.449
2.228
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Darkest Hour
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Cities: Skylines
Yes, quantity will still be king as long as it gives + 50% Fl. Stil I would say offence is better than quality, and it's probably a better pick as the second military group.
 

Retrac910

Sergeant
17 Badges
May 3, 2021
57
208
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
Single player: Offensive for siege QoL, since v AI sieges win wars
Multiplayer: Quantity for troops
In both: Whatever one you want - play the way that makes you happy
 
  • 5Like
  • 3
Reactions:

Kanem Bornu

First Lieutenant
72 Badges
Aug 29, 2010
271
673
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
It actually makes me lean more into Defensive. I'm going to be spending more time fighting and standing on forts. I'll take the morale bonus and -25% attrition from Defensive, personally.

Also I've been burned way too many times trying to siege race the AI. I would rather kill their troops than try to out siege them.
 
  • 2
Reactions:

st360

Major
1 Badges
Oct 18, 2019
762
4.372
  • Crusader Kings II
Offensive is ok, but people are trying to make it more of a thing than it actually is because they want meme stackwipes.

In reality, +20% siege speed isn't **that** noticeable, especially if you need to buy in a whole idea slot to get it. The argument smells of the "naval ideas are amazing, you can fully blockade your enemy every war!". You're still vulnerable for too long when sieging mountain forts to snipe them, so you still need to create a solution for that. And then you mind as well siege it for 2 months longer without the bonus.

I mean, if you **really** want to increase your siege speed, take quantity, double your army size and get a 300% siege speed "modifier" by having 3 dedicated siege armies instead of 1.

There is also the reality that siege speed is not a bottleneck. Admin points, aggressive expansion and overextension are bottlenecks. You will never be sitting at 999 admin points and 0 aggressive expansion wishing forts would fall faster so you can finally spend your admin points on coring.

In reality, EU 4s war system is too simplistic to carry 4 military idea groups that are all basically the same "+5% damage" bonuses + shameless fillers like 10% recruitment speed. Quality, offensive, defensive and to a lesser extent quantity are basically the same thing, and impossible to balance because 1 will always be slightly better for the exact same role all 4 of them fulfill. Defensive doesn't really help you to defend against better enemies, and quality isn't in any way more elite than offensive.
 
Last edited:
  • 8
  • 3Like
Reactions:

st360

Major
1 Badges
Oct 18, 2019
762
4.372
  • Crusader Kings II
But seriously, the siege ability, discipline and better generals is far more important than anything else. Quantity just gives you more men, which can be bought via professionalism anyway,
You dont pick quantity to waste more manpower. People pick quantity for the force limit. So that their armies are so big the AI never even bothers to engage you and you win wars with 0 battles.
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Damedius

Lt. General
80 Badges
May 28, 2012
1.203
1.289
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Age of Wonders II
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Age of Wonders
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall - Revelations
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
You dont pick quantity to waste more manpower. People pick quantity for the force limit. So that their armies are so big the AI never even bothers to engage you and you win wars with 0 battles.
It's both. Early on the extra manpower helps so that you don't run out of manpower from constant wars. You can provoke revolts and not be worried about losing too much manpower.
 
  • 2Like
  • 2
Reactions:

Jihem

Second Lieutenant
16 Badges
Sep 29, 2021
166
400
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
It's both. Early on the extra manpower helps so that you don't run out of manpower from constant wars. You can provoke revolts and not be worried about losing too much manpower.
And get insane army tradition by dealing constantly with revolters between two wars.
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions: