The Netherlands can't win The Eighty Years' War

jrdplas

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I'm very annoyed with something that is going on in the game EU IV. I have all the expansions installed.

When I start the game in The Eighty Years' War and play as The Netherlands, eventually there is no way to win the war against Spain without defaulting on the loans. The war itself prevents me from sending out my ships and acquire gold to fund the war, also because the fleet itself is not powerful enough to halt Spanish reinforcements to arrive in The Netherlands. I'm able to fend off the Spanish army but I must do so by taking on a multitude of loans.

Also, The Netherlands isn't able to explore unknown areas or to colonise. In history, the Dutch were actually very successful in setting up trading posts and taking away islands and forts from the Spanish and the Portuguese during the Eighty Years' War. I don't understand why so little consideration has been made to the Dutch in the era that Europa Universalis IV spans.

I bought this game, so I could try to play the historic events that gave rise to the independence of my country.

I have some suggestions for the next expansion Mare Nostrum, when playing the Eighty Years' War:

- let The Netherlands be able to establish trading posts instead of directly colonising it (this could be a middle mode or an option to choose when establishing the first settlement with colonists/traders on the new land), get them very close to the idea of colonisation, or even make it a standard in the Dutch tradition

- let The Netherlands start out with a powerful navy that can defeat Spain's

or

- code it so that the historic events between 1579 and 1600 are in the game, including the beginning of the Anglo-Spanish war in 1585 in which the Spanish Armada was utterly defeated by a English-Dutch fleet; make it an event -- it is an important one as it allowed the Dutch to build their naval power and build their position in trade -- and announce king Phillip II's intentions of building the largest fleet the world has ever seen (it also cost them a lot of forests, thus economic power), the Spanish never came back from this defeat (but that of course may change in the game, if only much later, please)

-- let the English be easily persuaded to support the Dutch cause for independence since queen Elizabeth I supported the Dutch in light of protestantism; Spanish king Philip II also lay claim to the Portuguese throne and its subsequent annexation should break the English alliance with Portugal

-- prevent the Portuguese or the Spanish from colonising Cape of Good Hope and the other South African provinces; the Portuguese had no interest in colonising there because they could already resupply in Congo/Angola and Mozambique, the Spanish weren't even allowed to colonise there because the Pope had divided the world in a Spanish half and a Portuguese half, let the English postpone the decision to colonise South Africa as this would later on become a bit of a conflict between the two nations (that's just nice for gameplay), this should allow the Dutch to expand into the East-Indies, if combined with trade posts since trade posts are easier to establish and require the agreement of the local leadership

I think I have mentioned everything now. I look forward seeing these corrections/additions made in the new expansion.
 
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1. The devs stated that later bookmarks are not to be supported.
 
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Tarskin

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I still find that a rather silly decision, but he does speak the truth :(

He means that they don't spend any effort on games starting in a year other than 1444.

However, you can still play from 1444 as one of the Dutch Minors (e.g. Holland or Friesland are popular options) and try to form the Netherlands through that way.
 
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jrdplas

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Basically, they are just leaving The Netherlands as a broken nation? I was seriously hoping for an improvement in all of these years because it wasn't very playable in EU III either.

They better make up for it when they start developing EU V! The Swedes didn't make the sort of impact on world history as the Dutch did. Maybe this sounds nationalistic but don't tell me that they founded New York or made a contribution to seafaring, international trade and economic theory of the sorts the Dutch made.
 
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They kind of won the league war *shrug*. Furthermore, how did you interpret what was said as 'they are just leaving The Netherlands as a broken nation?', in fact the Netherlands is not broken at all, it is one of the strongest nations out there (in my opinion).

They only said that they don't support any starting date other than 1444, so just start in 1444 and form it yourself as I already suggested...
 
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Basically, they are just leaving The Netherlands as a broken nation? I was seriously hoping for an improvement in all of these years because it wasn't very playable in EU III either.
That is correct, I think it's part of their drive towards making the game more suitble for competetive multiplayer...
Anyway the reason they won't fix it is the reason it's broken in the first place, when the scenario was introduced it was relativly balanced but they haven't fixed it since. Same thing with the american revolution bookmark.
 
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You are forgetting that the Dutch were able to win the 80 years war because of nation like Sweden, England, France and the Ottoman Empire. These nations were continually fighting the Habsburgs, making any serious intervention in the Netherlands seriously delayed and undermanned. It is very difficult to simulate such a situation in-game. The larger part of the Spanish armada was continually engaged against the Ottomans and pirates funded by them. That's why we have that coin from that area: "Liever Turks dan Paaps". This signifies the enormous contribution the Ottoman Turks provided us with.

You could play as either one of these nations and support the Dutch rebellion.

EDIT:
I even dare to say as a Dutchie, that without the Ottoman Empire, either the reformation might not have succeeded at all or might have seriously been less in scope. Dare I mention that the Dutch rebellion might also not have succeeded.
 
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jrdplas

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They kind of won the league war *shrug*. Furthermore, how did you interpret what was said as 'they are just leaving The Netherlands as a broken nation?', in fact the Netherlands is not broken at all, it is one of the strongest nations out there (in my opinion).

They only said that they don't support any starting date other than 1444, so just start in 1444 and form it yourself as I already suggested...

They leave it broken for when you open the game at the start of the Eighty Years' War. I think that is the most interesting time: it's the most relevant to The Netherlands as a nation moreover.
 
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Basically, they are just leaving The Netherlands as a broken nation? I was seriously hoping for an improvement in all of these years because it wasn't very playable in EU III either.

They better make up for it when they start developing EU V! The Swedes didn't make the sort of impact on world history as the Dutch did. Maybe this sounds nationalistic but don't tell me that they founded New York or made a contribution to seafaring, international trade and economic theory of the sorts the Dutch made.
Sweden ensured the Peace of Westphalia (saving Protestantism in Germany, breaking Habsburg power, etc), completely broke Polish power (leading to the partitions of Poland, expanding Russia into Poland and ensuring Russian power until the fall of the Soviet Union), helped defeat Napoleon, etc. Sweden has had a pretty goddamn big impact on history. And the Netherlands is by no means a broken nation, you may easily form it playing as either Burgundy or one of its PU partners.
 
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The biggest reason you can't beat Spain is that they don't have actual supply lines to deal with like in history. A lot of things in EU4 is silly because of that.

Also, Sweden had a pretty big impact on world history. Gustav Adolf is the father of modern warfare, for example.
 
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@jrdplas You have to realize that not maintaining bookmarks other than 1444, affects many countries and not just the Netherlands right? Therefore, acting as if it's a specific targeted 'attack' against the Netherlands is rather silly.

Furthermore, I am not even sure if I agree with your statement, the period where the region was still in the HRE (or under Burgundy) was also extremely important as it allowed Holland to assert/project its influence on the surrounding lands (e.g. by subjugating the Frisian pirates).
 
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tbh i think is more important to introduce other mechanics to let the dutch nation appears from the 1444 start. The last time i've seen the Netherlands was an opm in Calais crushed by the English in 1-year; the other times Austria always manage the rebellion. Maybe it's only because i play few games recently but i hope that there is another way instead of more railroaded event.
 
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Tarskin

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The one thing that I would like fixed is being to force to smash the Netherlands (that spawned from a rebellion) while playing Holland (trying to form it), there should be a way to diplomatically solve that dispute ;)
 
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jrdplas

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That's why we have that coin from that area: "Liever Turks dan Paaps". This signifies the enormous contribution the Ottoman Turks provided us with.

You could play as either one of these nations and support the Dutch rebellion.

EDIT:
I even dare to say as a Dutchie, that without the Ottoman Empire, either the reformation might not have succeeded at all or might have seriously been less in scope. Dare I mention that the Dutch rebellion might also not have succeeded.

I am Dutch and although it was helpful for them getting into wars with the Spanish and their alliances were useful, they only did this because it was for their own profit. The Dutch may have been more eager to be Turkish than to be under papal rule, they would certainly liked to be Dutch primarily. The Dutch rebellion could have been called a success twenty years from its start.

Why do I mention the Swedes? Paradox Entertainment is located in Sweden and one of their trailers specifically mentions Sweden having fought off Danish rule and starting their own mainly European empire (whatever lay outside of Europe was taken by the Dutch). It sort of tells me they had a taste for promoting the greatness of Sweden, which historically was very powerful but their ships were no match to those of the Dutch. Yet, they leave my country's history and its most important broken moment broken.
 
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jrdplas

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@jrdplas You have to realize that not maintaining bookmarks other than 1444, affects many countries and not just the Netherlands right? Therefore, acting as if it's a specific targeted 'attack' against the Netherlands is rather silly.

Furthermore, I am not even sure if I agree with your statement, the period where the region was still in the HRE (or under Burgundy) was also extremely important as it allowed Holland to assert/project its influence on the surrounding lands (e.g. by subjugating the Frisian pirates).

No, it's not a targeted attack on The Netherlands. I'm just saying that they're not valuing countries correctly.

Frisian pirates? You must be kidding, right? I happen to be Frisian and we certainly weren't pirates.
 
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bbqftw

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According to Paradox the later start dates are rarely played (we're looking at <1% if I recall correctly) and I don't think there will even be later bookmarks in EUV
 
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Ragedoctor

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I am Dutch and although it was helpful for them getting into wars with the Spanish and their alliances were useful, they only did this because it was for their own profit. The Dutch may have been more eager to be Turkish than to be under papal rule, they would certainly liked to be Dutch primarily. The Dutch rebellion could have been called a success twenty years from its start.

Why do I mention the Swedes? Paradox Entertainment is located in Sweden and one of their trailers specifically mentions Sweden having fought off Danish rule and starting their own mainly European empire (whatever lay outside of Europe was taken by the Dutch). It sort of tells me they had a taste for promoting the greatness of Sweden, which historically was very powerful but their ships were no match to those of the Dutch. Yet, they leave my country's history and its most important broken moment broken.

Of course I think that everyone wages war primarily for their interested, but what I am trying to say is:

The circumstances around our rebellion are very circumstantial and very lucky. If we fought the Hapsburg at any other time than when we did we might not have succeeded. We succeed because the Hapsburg were preoccupied with fighting the reformation in the HRE, the Swedes, the French, the English, the Turks, the Barbary Pirates and were also colonizing the New World. Due to these circumstance the Spanish were very late and underwhelmed in their response to suppress our rebellion, but they still managed to secure the southern Netherlands or what is today Belgium.

You could compare Spanish situation with that of Germany in WW I, strong enough by themselves to defeat any foe singlehandily, but not all of them at the same time. After this period the Hapsburg crown deliberately separated the throne of Austria and Spain into 2 again.

In a game that is designed to be a historical sand-box, such attention to detail at a bookmark and the subsequent events, wars, etc is very difficult to realize. I concur that this bookmark is particularly interesting, but is it worth the time in making the details all up to scale ? Or does Paradox make a conscious design choice to pour their effort into streamlining the game ? And what if they polish this bookmark specifically, then other people are going to demand other bookmarks to be polished as well. If they stick to 1444 as the primary bookmark they can design their game to be as polished as possible from that bookmark up until the end date.
 
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Ratanka

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Basically, they are just leaving The Netherlands as a broken nation? I was seriously hoping for an improvement in all of these years because it wasn't very playable in EU III either.

They better make up for it when they start developing EU V! The Swedes didn't make the sort of impact on world history as the Dutch did. Maybe this sounds nationalistic but don't tell me that they founded New York or made a contribution to seafaring, international trade and economic theory of the sorts the Dutch made.

as mentioned they are not supporting your playstart, 98-99% play from 1444 so they use their time there
your starting point is just a nice boni
 

Ratanka

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tbh i think is more important to introduce other mechanics to let the dutch nation appears from the 1444 start. The last time i've seen the Netherlands was an opm in Calais crushed by the English in 1-year; the other times Austria always manage the rebellion. Maybe it's only because i play few games recently but i hope that there is another way instead of more railroaded event.

i saw the netherlands SO OFTEN and also often really strong bigger then historicla YES by the AI
 
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