The Navy

[rudel.dietrich]

I did some searches for this and found nothing official. During this period navies were the pinnacle of national power and huge sums of money were tied up in them. One of the things in Victoria 2 I would like to see if a much greater variety of ships and prestige tied to building them and being the first.
In the first game one of the things that bothered me the most was the massive gap in technoligy between sail ships and late steam ships. In fact there was a gap that stretched something like 35 years. It went from Man-O-Wars and Frigates to ironclads. That is a huge leap. And the period from arouind 1855 to 1885 has just two classes of ship and one really generic class the commerce raider.
The age of sail is fine I think with the ships represented. But the early steam age needs a lot more classes. It needs side paddle wheel steamers and screw frigates and screw sloops.
Moving into the more modern age I think each class needs a 'early' and late class. Early and late light cruisers and armored cruisers. Early and late battleships.
The really modern ships had such short lifespans that perhaps they could be broken down into first and second rate. Countries like Germany and England and France had first rate ships while Austria-Hungry and Italy and the ships sold to South American navies were a class below.
Finally the pinacle of naval design would be oil burning battlecruisers and battleships.
The variety I think would spice up the naval side of the game which is such a important competent. I realize the game is not a naval wargame or even HOI but I think think some extras classes could be squeezed in seeing as how the game is going to cover 100 years of the most rapid naval development in history.

Secondly naval building and being first to build something should net a prestige bonus. It should also be a regional thing. South America had it's own naval arms race and Japan built it's navy for modernization purposes as well as national prestige purposes.
Each ship should have prestige attached to it and being the first to launch a pre dreadnought or dreadnought should be a bonus.
If the game got really detailed maybe the first ship to have guns of a certain size or ships of a certain weight. But that is probably a pipe dream.

Third it would be a neat option if countries like France, Britain and Germany could build and sell ships to other navies. This is also probably a pipe dream but would be really neat to see in an expansion.
This is how a lot of nations got their naval start or was the only way they acquired ships.
Nations like Japan, Brazil, Argentina, Turkey, Greece, Australia and New Zealand all purchased ships at various times.

Thanks for reading

 

[Heretic]

Probably too late to make such fundamental suggestions, but I guess if you could get someone interested to mod it...

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Again, probably too late but Id like to see some distinction in naval types also. My first thought is Monitor types (which later game could be extended to coastal battleships/late style monitor.gun platforms). The US type was more of a coastal defence option so Id like to see ocean regions divided into brown & blue waters.

Much of the early US naval strategy was invested in coastal forts, shallow water, harbour protection ships and commerce raiding and a move like this would help to simulate it.

Making naval areas blue & brown water would allow for greater simulation of the various regional conflicts that the OP mentioned as well as states like the USA having quite a powerful navy at some points but in a home waters capacity not power-projection.

Vicky1 style fleets of monitors should not realy be able to project power overseas. Similarly, a distiction between the CSA style Ironclad (again coastal) and the ocean-going UK and French type should be buildable and restricted to their relevant water types/depths.

 

[unmerged(75409)]

Would be nice if you had a detailed page in the ledger "World's Navies" with not just a spreadsheet but also something like a picture of their most modern ship and its stats. Something which you don't just check to see the numbers, but also enjoy looking at while nothing is happening in the game.

"Oh look, Germany has launched a dreadnought, it makes 18 knots and has 22 sea attack... that's 1 point more than I have... rats, I'd better lay down some more keels! Oh and look at France, their best ship is still that old cruiser, looks like the war with the Confederacy hit them real hard."

 

[Heretic]

Remebering V1, one of the problems with the AI navy is that it was never in the right place for very long. Sure, in MP games, naval battles would be a problem. I am sure I remember that the AI found it hard to concentrate force, or do it usefully.

 

[Prinz Wilhelm]

Hopefully we won't see month-long naval battles à la Victoria 1.

 

[unmerged(207113)]

I certainly agree that the naval aspect of Ticky should be given a little more TLC than in previous Paradox games. After all, this is the era of the great naval races (combined with, as has been mentioned, huge leaps in naval technology and strategy) culminating in the Battle of Jutland - spectacularly inglorious though it was.

In 1836 we start with 18th century wooden frigates and interceptors, whilst by 1918 many of the Great Powers should have numerous armoured dreadnoughts, battlecruisers and cruisers. I suspect - and certainly hope - that this will be represented by a collective upgrading of individual maritime technologies (as in Arsenal of Democracy, perhaps) as opposed to a simple naval technology level as in Europe Universalis III.

I certainly concur with HMS Enterprize regarding armoured vessels, and I do hope that I will be able to name my own ships. I also remember reading of a flagship feature that was added in a recent expansion, so perhaps that feature will have been included in Ticky? : ]

Austen.

 

[mg62]

coaling stations

I am also very interested in the Naval aspects of this game.

Also probably too late but maybe for a patch: one of my concerns was the ability to sail all around the world with out necessary coaling stations for early steamers or refueling stations for oiler powered ships.

In Vic 1 you could only build colony's within range of existing ports depending upon your tech level. Perhaps this can be modified to also project range for early steamers. For example steamers can function within a certain range of a port depending upon the port level.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

Again, probably too late but Id like to see some distinction in naval types also. My first thought is Monitor types (which later game could be extended to coastal battleships/late style monitor.gun platforms). The US type was more of a coastal defence option so Id like to see ocean regions divided into brown & blue waters.

Much of the early US naval strategy was invested in coastal forts, shallow water, harbour protection ships and commerce raiding and a move like this would help to simulate it.

Making naval areas blue & brown water would allow for greater simulation of the various regional conflicts that the OP mentioned as well as states like the USA having quite a powerful navy at some points but in a home waters capacity not power-projection.

Vicky1 style fleets of monitors should not realy be able to project power overseas. Similarly, a distiction between the CSA style Ironclad (again coastal) and the ocean-going UK and French type should be buildable and restricted to their relevant water types/depths.

Either that, or at the very least some kind of "naval range" mechanic.

 

[HMS Enterprize]

Either that, or at the very least some kind of "naval range" mechanic.

Yea, that would work too. Probably be easier to implement also.

 

[daemonofdecay]

The US type was more of a coastal defence option so Id like to see ocean regions divided into brown & blue waters.

Much of the early US naval strategy was invested in coastal forts, shallow water, harbour protection ships and commerce raiding and a move like this would help to simulate it.

Making naval areas blue & brown water would allow for greater simulation of the various regional conflicts that the OP mentioned as well as states like the USA having quite a powerful navy at some points but in a home waters capacity not power-projection.

Vicky1 style fleets of monitors should not realy be able to project power overseas. Similarly, a distiction between the CSA style Ironclad (again coastal) and the ocean-going UK and French type should be buildable and restricted to their relevant water types/depths.

I REALLY love this idea. It is very simple to understand, can be graphically interesting to represent (darker/lighter shades of water), and adds a whole depth to the game. Its perfect from a game-design point of view because it does not confuse players nor radically transform game mechanics.

Especially if such generalizations between blue- and brown-water were kept simple: for instance, ships made for coastal service would have a simple negative modifier if they were to fight in "blue-water" tiles. Easy to include, easy to understand, and helps differentiate between different vessel types.

 

[Grosshaus]

Ignoring historicity and focusing on the essentials, i.e. gameplay, I hope the amount of ship classes will be very limited. If there are too many, they get obsolete more early and I'd be even more likely not to build any.

 

[jelay14]

Off the top of my head, the only word we had from the crew on navies was that one would really be necessary if you wanted to protect yourself from smaller states defaulting.

Which is a gravy feature in and of itself.

 

[Alex_brunius]

What Victoria2 need is rather a better representation of submarines, torpedoes and mines Imho. All of these weapons were invented (or at least had their militaristic breakthrough) during the era, and all of them radically changed how naval war was fought.

# Torpedoes and small motorboats to carry them gave rise to an entire new class of ships, the Torpedo-boat destroyer, or just Destroyer. Torpedoes made naval battles more unpredictable, more destructive, and also enabled the next vessel on the list.

# Submarines in WW1 were equally effective to those in WW2 (in fact the top tonnage sunk month is in WW1 rather then WW2) and submarines sinking trade shipping were one of the primary reasons USA was dragged into WW1. Submarines prevented projection of power and Imports/Exports by putting up a blockade almost impossible to sink.

# Mines were also of huge importance, they contributed to the possibility off control straits and narrow waters and defend ports. Mines made an impact on most naval engagements or campaigns, if not directly through sunk/damaged ships then indirectly through controlling where the ships could go, or often both.

Especially if such generalizations between blue- and brown-water were kept simple: for instance, ships made for coastal service would have a simple negative modifier if they were to fight in "blue-water" tiles. Easy to include, easy to understand, and helps differentiate between different vessel types.

That's a bit too easy for me. What's to prevent you from moving right to the enemies coastal tiles before DoW and fight without any penalty even if your even further from home while his Blue water navy is getting penalties... (Seems more like hard to understand rather then easy actually)

 

[MAHak]

At least lets have another tier of transport ships. The steamer transports look like something that sailed tourist up and down the Mississippi river, it hardly appears to be ocean going.
The Turkish troops defending the Gallipoli straights, would have laughed themselves to death if the Entente had landed troops in these crafts.

With the short time-span in the game it may be too complicated to add more new ship types.

It's not fun if you have been strangling you POP's with the tax yoke. So that you could afford to build 50 Ironclads, just to found out that 2 years later 10 ships of the next generation could easily dispatch your obsolete ships.

 

[daemonofdecay]

That's a bit too easy for me. What's to prevent you from moving right to the enemies coastal tiles before DoW and fight without any penalty even if your even further from home while his Blue water navy is getting penalties... (Seems more like hard to understand rather then easy actually)

Whats keeping you from sailing your normal blue-water vessels into their coastal waters before DOWing them?

But I do see your point here. To truly represent the different naval ships of the era you would actually need to differentiate between what are called "Coastal" vessels:

"True" Coastal Vessels - There are like early ironclads (USS Monitor) or small gunships that are NOT ocean going vessels. Simply limit these vessels to movement within coastal waters, or give them very high attrition within in deeper water.

"Coastal" Defense Ships - Ships such as Coastal Battleships are able to sail on open water just fine, but they are designed for operations close to shore. For instance making ships the size of cruisers that maximize armor and armament but sacrifice speed; these one could sail across the Atlantic as you describe, but their poorer stats should be reflected accurately.

To be honest I imagine that the naval system will be as you fear in that you will be able to take Monitors and Ironclads across the Ocean (as long as they have the range). Perhaps the true answer is just to have Monitors/Gunships have such a limited range they only can sail in shallow water or near the coast.

 

[rudel.dietrich]

Hopefully we won't see month-long naval battles à la Victoria 1.

That really annoyed me too.
I am beginning to understand how magical a game Victoria was that I played it so much despite some glaring flaws and annoyances.


I also agree with the mention that trasnports needs to be changed to three classes. Clipper/Steam-Sail Hybrid/Full Steam
If the developers are really wanting to go all out they can add a fourth class that burns fuel oil.

The problem comes from being such a huge naval warfare fan especially from this time period but at the same time knowing this is a historical simulator and note a naval simulation or even a naval wargame. It is a historical simulation with naval matters included. But without going too deep into the matter, the game does sorely need some expanded ship classes.
At the very least the gap between Man-O-War and ironclad needs to be softened. In Victoria 1 there is a 35 year technology game in there.
Really just three classes of ship would go a long ways toward filling that gap. Paddlewheel steamer, screw sloop and screw frigate.

 

[daemonofdecay]

In Victoria 1 there is a 35 year technology game in there.
Really just three classes of ship would go a long ways toward filling that gap. Paddlewheel steamer, screw sloop and screw frigate.

Wasn't one of the problems that ships were both very expensive to build for many nations, but they became outdated very quickly too?

Not to mention the AI's complete unwillingness to scrap old and outdated ships, so you would have the UK fighting in the 1900s with massive numbers of sail frigates and men-of-war.

 

[TheLand]

Wasn't one of the problems that ships were both very expensive to build for many nations, but they became outdated very quickly too?

This also happens to be the historical explannation for Britain's naval dominance in the 19th century.

Not to mention the AI's complete unwillingness to scrap old and outdated ships, so you would have the UK fighting in the 1900s with massive numbers of sail frigates and men-of-war.

Indeed, this was a problem.

The most obvious way to fix this fairly would have been to increase ships' maintenance costs drastically with doctrine research - just as happened with the Army, remove obsolete ships from prestige/military score calculations, and get the AI to scrap ships.

 

[daemonofdecay]

Indeed, this was a problem.

The most obvious way to fix this fairly would have been to increase ships' maintenance costs drastically with doctrine research - just as happened with the Army, remove obsolete ships from prestige/military score calculations, and get the AI to scrap ships.

This makes perfect sense from a gameplay stance, although I imagine some players will complain when the maintenance costs of their ships goes up when they discover the boiler. :rofl: