The Mughal Empire

[zsImmortal]

Instant inherit is still a mystery to pretty much everyone, it very very very rarely happens with 1-4 province minors, but strictly speaking it's not entirely impossible, just almost infinitely improbably I guess. Just being a nitpicker

Inherited Burgundy and Bohemia at the same time as Austria back in 1.11 iirc. Just need lots of of dip rep.

 

[Korashy]

Inherited Burgundy and Bohemia at the same time as Austria back in 1.11 iirc. Just need lots of of dip rep.

We're not talking about inheritance on your monarch death. We are talking about an independent ruler of say France dying and instead of a country getting a PU, they instantly inherit the whole thing without ever having to go through the PU stage. It CAN happen, i just basically never does.

 

[zsImmortal]

We're not talking about inheritance on your monarch death. We are talking about a ruler of say France dying and instead of a country getting a PU, they instantly inherit the whole thing without ever having to go through the PU stage. It CAN happen, i just basically never does.

Ah, what are the required circumstances? I've never heard of this.

 

[yerm]

We're not talking about inheritance on your monarch death. We are talking about an independent ruler of say France dying and instead of a country getting a PU, they instantly inherit the whole thing without ever having to go through the PU stage. It CAN happen, i just basically never does.

It happens all the time but basically just to pathetic HRE minors for the most part. Maybe not anymore, nobody stays pathetic past like 1480 these days, you expand or you die. It definitely did happen a lot though!

 

[Korashy]

Ah, what are the required circumstances? I've never heard of this.

No one really knows. I remember recalling that for a little while when I looked at Austria once it said I would inherit instead of form personal union, but it changed after a little while to PU. Pay attention to the tool tips a few times sometimes you may still be able to see it. Could be it could overhauled through some patch though, as the mechanic was never clear to anyone. It was a lot more common in EUIII from which the "left over" code of the monarch/pu system is from.

 

[Korashy]

It happens all the time but basically just to pathetic HRE minors for the most part. Maybe not anymore, nobody stays pathetic past like 1480 these days, you expand or you die. It definitely did happen a lot though!

Yeah small onces happened every now and then, but specifically we were talking about inheriting great powers instantly. HRE was usually where it happened.

 

[Tacticus101]

It would be much easier if the game started in 1453, then Timurids could start with half their lands conquered and already very unstable.

 

[deckhand]

NEVER have i seen the Mughals, except at later starts.

I've seen them form at least twice. Say 25% of my long games. Not particularly relevant as it was in much earlier versions. (1.4 & 1.10 IIRC)

 

[Incompetent]

You have to understand that the rise of the Mughals wasn't a historical inevitability at all. It was rather the result of a set of lucky circumstances. Yes, it's nice to have Mughals dominate India, but it shouldn't be railroaded just because it happened IRL.

Also, in EU4 terms the empire of Aurangzeb (pictured in the OP) was severely overextended.

 

[spyroware1]

I don't want to derail the thread.. but the Timurids and Babur shouldn't be the sole focus. Enter the Mughals before the Mughals aka the Delhi Sultanate:

India feels off exactly because there's no real push for consolidation by any regional power (save for the odd Vijayanagar survival). The reason is the Delhi - Bahmanis - Bengal circlejerk that is happily maintained until game end, with the added side effect of truce blocking any foreign intervention as well. Sometimes one of the three rivals one of the remaining two, but because they're allied with the third nothing really happens (except nuking Tibet). The alliance web keeps the subcontinent in a perpetual peace that would make the Italic League green with envy. Even if they consolidate their respective areas and end up sharing borders, they still love each other. It's very unrealistic.

 

[wingzero890]

India and Indochina have needed some serious dev attention with regard to events and scripting for a very long time now.

 

[cemacmillan]

Imo at this point there is no way to railroad mughals unless Paradox nerfs India in to the ground, which will not happen.

As I said earlier - I have already done so. It just requires slightly different rebels. And it's not pure railroad, as the rebels could lose. It's totally possible to have a Mughal Empire 85-90% of the time, and same for the Bahmanis if India is still Muslim in the North.

 

[cemacmillan]

As I said earlier - I have already done so. It just requires slightly different rebels. And it's not pure railroad, as the rebels could lose. It's totally possible to have a Mughal Empire 85-90% of the time, and same for the Bahmanis if India is still Muslim in the North.

Sorry, I meant "Marathas" rather than Bahmanis.

 

[Captain Frye]

As I said earlier - I have already done so. It just requires slightly different rebels. And it's not pure railroad, as the rebels could lose. It's totally possible to have a Mughal Empire 85-90% of the time, and same for the Bahmanis if India is still Muslim in the North.

But why should Babur be a rebel faction in India? It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Martin_Mortyry]

Well, this could be done through a little bit of railroading. Just make an event spawning Mughal rebels in Delhi, or whichever country you want to be taken over by the Mughals, which triggers:
1) If Timurids collapsed
2) If the country the rebels are supposed to strike is unstable
3) the year is, say, between 1510 and 1530
It doesn't necessarily have to be Delhi though, I'm pretty sure Babur would've struck any other Indian country if he had an opportunity. However, I'm not an expert on Hindi history, that's just based on what I've read here and on Wikipedia.

 

[cemacmillan]

But why should Babur be a rebel faction in India? It doesn't make any sense.

Babur would be a rebel because there isn't any other way to represent in game a non-national army. And non-national armies are in effect,
most often some kind of rebel.

It makes sense in any case - Babur was invited to depose Lodi. Were they planning all along that he would take the throne, or were
they planning to put another Lodi after Ibrahim ?

 

[zsImmortal]

Babur would be a rebel because there isn't any other way to represent in game a non-national army. And non-national armies are in effect,
most often some kind of rebel.

It makes sense in any case - Babur was invited to depose Lodi. Were they planning all along that he would take the throne, or were
they planning to put another Lodi after Ibrahim ?

It makes no sense. Let's not start making any more nonsensical Ismail events. It doesn't portray anything close to reality.

The reason the Mughals don't appear (and by the same standards, formable Persia shouldn't) is simply that portraying their rise is impossible. You can't have a pretender rip the realm and conquer it (a 'nomadic' nation can't form Persia anyways), and a smaller, more efficiently led kingdom can't invade a much larger nation that still has sufficient military ressources. I'd love to see the Mughals happen, but game mechanics are too (post-Westphalia) Europe-focused to adequately portray Eastern empires, so unless mechanics change, we'll have to deal with shitty Persian separatists and non-existent Mughals.

 

[Captain Frye]

It makes no sense. Let's not start making any more nonsensical Ismail events. It doesn't portray anything close to reality.

The reason the Mughals don't appear (and by the same standards, formable Persia shouldn't) is simply that portraying their rise is impossible. You can't have a pretender rip the realm and conquer it (a 'nomadic' nation can't form Persia anyways), and a smaller, more efficiently led kingdom can't invade a much larger nation that still has sufficient military ressources. I'd love to see the Mughals happen, but game mechanics are too (post-Westphalia) Europe-focused to adequately portray Eastern empires, so unless mechanics change, we'll have to deal with shitty Persian separatists and non-existent Mughals.

Pretty much this.

 

[FleetingRain]

Unless Timurids get a disaster... frankly, the whole Disintegration event looks like outdated bullshit now that we have disasters.

 

[cemacmillan]

It makes no sense. Let's not start making any more nonsensical Ismail events. It doesn't portray anything close to reality.

The reason the Mughals don't appear (and by the same standards, formable Persia shouldn't) is simply that portraying their rise is impossible. You can't have a pretender rip the realm and conquer it (a 'nomadic' nation can't form Persia anyways), and a smaller, more efficiently led kingdom can't invade a much larger nation that still has sufficient military ressources. I'd love to see the Mughals happen, but game mechanics are too (post-Westphalia) Europe-focused to adequately portray Eastern empires, so unless mechanics change, we'll have to deal with shitty Persian separatists and non-existent Mughals.

I don't see the problem with it - the mechanics of the game are probably never going to reflect something like how Babur came to power. It's too "character oriented" for EU4, and more like the sort of thing I would expect to come out of CK2.

I don't see how the mechanics of it matter. From a gods-eye view, Babur's army took over Delhi Sultanate, and at the time Babur was not a "state-actor" : he wasn't taking Delhi on behalf of the Timurids or someone else - he was ostensibly there to deplace the current power. Rebels seem as good a representation of this as anything else, and more importantly it works, allowing for the small chance that Delhi wins (and defeats the rebels.)

I can understand if you want to say it's railroading, or whatever, but it allows for the possibility of a powerful Muslim state spread across the North of India which is kind of how it worked out at the beginning of the Mughals.

In any case it's in a mod. If Pdox wants to find some other way to create the Mughal and the Maratha Empire then by all means I would remove my own from my mod.