The Mughal Empire

[indika_tates]

Babur was not ruler of the Timurids, he was "A" Timurid King who ruled a tiny state and only claimed the title of Emperor after all other Timurid states had been defeated (and it meant very little). If there is an event that gives cores on Deli, it should not really be the Timurids who get it unless they are almost OPM level. Personally, I like the idea of having Mughals as one of the states that can pop out of the Timurids, then give THEM a helping hand invading India.

I will note though that is any game Timurids don't collapse to rebels, they seem to very frequently invade india due to all their missions there. Most games so far I have seen Timurids begin invasions and vassalise a few indian states before collapsing.

Then if Timurids as a "nation" didn't formed Mughals because they inevitably collapsed, then as one user suggested the Babur revolts on Kabul & Delhi is the way to go in my opinion. But how to do it if Timurids exists? Because after they collapse they usually hold Samarkand and the neighboring provinces.

You have to understand that the rise of the Mughals wasn't a historical inevitability at all. It was rather the result of a set of lucky circumstances. Yes, it's nice to have Mughals dominate India, but it shouldn't be railroaded just because it happened IRL.

I'm not asking for a railroad Mughal event. But at least give it some kind of chance to happen. Do someone ever in one of their games saw Mughals forming? Honestly, I don't.

 

[Tacticus101]

Then if Timurids as a "nation" didn't formed Mughals because they inevitably collapsed, then as one user suggested the Babur revolts on Kabul & Delhi is the way to go in my opinion. But how to do it if Timurids exists? Because after they collapse they usually hold Samarkand and the neighboring provinces.

Have "Mughal rebels" as one of the groups that pops out if Timurids collapse, possibly by special event. I haven't checked this Patch, but previously they did occasionally appear and were in fact the way Paradox modelled the formation of the Mughal empire if you click through the timeline.

So, a series of things:

1) If Timuirds weaken by a certain amount and have rebel issues an event fires that creates Mughal rebels (or even just creates Mughal cores on the Kabul area so the rebels can spawn naturally).

2) On formation Mughals have Babur as their Ruler (so what, a 5-5-6?)

3) Mughals then get an event that gives them cores on Deli and missions to invade India.

 

[SaphireSeas]

I'm not asking for a railroad Mughal event. But at least give it some kind of chance to happen. Do someone ever in one of their games saw Mughals forming? Honestly, I don't.

NEVER have i seen the Mughals, except at later starts.
Do they have a Ottaman style Tolerance which avoids them having to convert the ENTIRE of India?

Then if Timurids as a "nation" didn't formed Mughals because they inevitably collapsed, then as one user suggested the Babur revolts on Kabul & Delhi is the way to go in my opinion. But how to do it if Timurids exists? Because after they collapse they usually hold Samarkand and the neighboring provinces.

Perhaps a better option would be separatists in Afghanistan Lead by Babur, which then invaded India. Because the Mughals rebelling in India is far worse then no Mughals.


My prooblem with the current set up is that the Hindus tend to get stomped. From my knowledge of Indian History(Tell me I am wrong if I am), The dehli Sultanate was collapsing, an Muslim India with it. This should lead to a mostly Hindu India.

But my knowledge of Indian History is quite limited, so I'd like someone to back me up before I stand beside my banner.

 

[indika_tates]

http://www.eu4wiki.com/Mughals

One of the problems, is the idea order which should be changed. If timurids or Mughals don't have religious unity and tolerance of heathens since the beginning, the inevitable collapse is a matter of time. Punjabi rebels are a serious thing because they appear in very rich provinces and the AI can't handle a 30k rebel stack at the beginning of the game. Just swap traditions and the first idea each other and it should be fine for the AI.

Giving the timmies the same starting traditions should help also (+Religious unity, +Tolerance of heathens) because every indian sultanate has it.

Traditions:

+3 Tolerance of heathens
+10% Cavalry combat ability
Tolerate the Idol Worshippers

+50% Religious unity

 

[zsImmortal]

You have to understand that the rise of the Mughals wasn't a historical inevitability at all. It was rather the result of a set of lucky circumstances. Yes, it's nice to have Mughals dominate India, but it shouldn't be railroaded just because it happened IRL.

Yes, just like the splintering of the realm and conquest first by QQ and then by AQ was not an inevitability. Yet Timurids are forced by their starting conditions and events to blow up. It's probably why people ask for Timurid support since they're made to blow up and the aftermath is them generally being swallowed up and disappearing.

I agree railroading sucks, but railroading the Timurid demise is just as problematic.

 

[yerm]

So, in 1500+, have a Timuridian Inheritance. Instantly annex to them Persia and the NW Indian lands. Give Ottomans any land Timmy may have creeped into over there in the west. Form a Safavid state on the Persian area, and then a Mughal state in the east. Instantly, painlessly, and regardless of other world circumstances, just immediately form the other two gunpowder empires. All problems except realism solved!

 

[Captain Frye]

Yes, just like the splintering of the realm and conquest first by QQ and then by AQ was not an inevitability. Yet Timurids are forced by their starting conditions and events to blow up. It's probably why people ask for Timurid support since they're made to blow up and the aftermath is them generally being swallowed up and disappearing.

I agree railroading sucks, but railroading the Timurid demise is just as problematic.

You can't seriously suggest that Timmies shouldn't lose Persia. Because they obviously should.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You can't seriously suggest that Timmies shouldn't lose Persia. Because they obviously should.

So why do you feel that Poland should be partitioned and Spain should bankrupt without exception? Why do you feel the HRE should be dismantled in 100% of games? Why do you feel that all merchant republics should be gone by 1821 if not human controlled?

Carefully explain to us why these things happening as such would be better for the game.

 

[zsImmortal]

You can't seriously suggest that Timmies shouldn't lose Persia. Because they obviously should.

You do realize that they lost part of Persia to QQ while they were in a succession war following Shahrukh's death? What part of that whole setup is inevitable?

Then AQ (which usually is irrelevant) conquered QQ and Persia, and the grandson of the guy who conquered the place took advantage of a succession war to claim the title of Shah. The guy was a Turkish Azerbaijani of the AQ ruling dynasty.

Please explain how any of this is related to Timurid Persian rebels and inevitable.

 

[indika_tates]

You can't seriously suggest that Timmies shouldn't lose Persia. Because they obviously should.

Then if they obviously should lose Persia, they obviously should need some help to go in the good direction. The problem is that after Timmies collapse they collapse to the ground. Khorasan, Afghanisthan, Khiva. Every possible rebel spawn and they are cornered to Samarkand. Then there is no way to form a Mughal empire just because they can't core the provinces they need. So the way the Timmies collapse is not helping at all.

So you have two options. Railroading it by an event which I think is the solution. The persian one at least. Persia should be released by an event. Because if not, they go bankrupt. You can't fight 30k x 3 rebel stacks. There is no way to win. Ally with Timmies after Persia breaks apart, and then check a "Call for arms". It should say (because I have seen it a lot of times). "Timurids is 3095 in debt" Because that is what happen.

And nowadays there is a railroad MTTH event for persia. The persian revolts. Is in the wiki. So no matter if they raise stability to three and hire a theologian. They will collapse. And there is not the only single event. There is another one for Afghan revolts. So we have to discuss what happen after the inevitable collapse. And if they lose also Afghanistan and they usually do, there is no way to form Mughals.

And there is another problem. Every neighbour when Timurids are collapsing declare war on them. So the solution is not easy I agree, but this need a completely rework.

IMO, babur revolts on mughals cores is an MTTH event we need. And that state or nation or whatever you want to call it is the one who should form the Mughal empire because giving the Timmies missions or quests to form it don't make sense. They fall apart!
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The Disintegration of the Timurid Empire

Ulugh Beg had earlier been viceroy of Transoxiana. After his succession to the throne the Timurid Empire fell into anarchy, the Turkmen horde known as the White Sheep conquered much territory, while the Uzbeks looted Samarkand. Petty princes took over the rule, and local dynasties sprang up.


Trigger conditions

• Is Timurids
• Ruler has less than 3 in all skills
• Does not have a regency
• Year is between 1450 and 1500

Mean time to happen

• This event is randomly triggered upon a new ruler

Attack all traitors

• For all provinces that is a core of Mughals and can spawn nationalist rebels:
  • Size 6 nationalist rebels led by "Babur Timurid" rise in revolt in a random province
  • Size 1 nationalist rebels rise in revolt in remaining provinces
• Size 2 rebels rise in revolt in 3 additional provinces

Bribe all traitors

• Lose 2 years of income
• Gain 5 inflation

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Ismail's Resurrection of Persia
Ismaïl emerged at the age of 14 to take his father's position as head of the Kizilbash (a Shiite Turkmen tribe). He quickly established a base of power in north-western Persia, and in 1501 he took the city of Tabriz and proclaimed himself Shah of Iran. In a succession of swift conquests he crushed the Ak Koyunlu (White Sheep Turks) and resurrected the nation of Iran under his Safavid dynasty.


Trigger conditions

• Is Timurids
• Owns at least 1 province that is a core of Persia
• Persia does not exist
• Year is before 1550

Mean time to happen

• 2000 months

Crush the Shiite rebels

• For all provinces that is a core of Persia:
  • Add 10 unrest

 

[Korashy]

You have to understand that the rise of the Mughals wasn't a historical inevitability at all. It was rather the result of a set of lucky circumstances. Yes, it's nice to have Mughals dominate India, but it shouldn't be railroaded just because it happened IRL.

So was the rise of almost every empire. Read an article a while back where climate scientists concluded that the rise of Mongols was due to very favorable whether conditions at the time on the steppes leading to a higher than usual amount of grass and feed for live stock. Pretty much no empire was destined for greatness.

 

[cemacmillan]

Then if Timurids as a "nation" didn't formed Mughals because they inevitably collapsed, then as one user suggested the Babur revolts on Kabul & Delhi is the way to go in my opinion. But how to do it if Timurids exists? Because after they collapse they usually hold Samarkand and the neighboring provinces.



I'm not asking for a railroad Mughal event. But at least give it some kind of chance to happen. Do someone ever in one of their games saw Mughals forming? Honestly, I don't.

I have seen the Mughal Empire form exactly once in all of the games I have played under EU4. It's practically impossible for it to happen in vanilla without certain rebels being in exactly the right place at the right time.

It was the first thing I added to my own mod because it drove me nuts to see Vijaynagar or "Hindustan" or whathaveyou occupying the place where the Mughal should be. I solved it by creating rebels at around the right time that demand that occupied provinces are ceded to them as an AI only event. I wrote the same kind of thing for the Maratha and it works fine, though it is railroading unless the AI has a large enough Army to take out the rebels - which does happen sometimes.

On the other hand, we have frank railroading in things like the Burgundian Succession that probably in the greater scheme of things had no deeper meaning for the sphere in which it happened than did the formation of the Mughal Empire.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

On the other hand, we have frank railroading in things like the Burgundian Succession that probably in the greater scheme of things had no deeper meaning for the sphere in which it happened than did the formation of the Mughal Empire.

So long as they bypass the game's normal abstraction level, those have no place in the game either.

 

[yerm]

Wait a second. I hate the BI as much as anyone, it's VERY poorly implemented and its peaceful conclusion is absolutely absurd... but let's not for one second try to pretend that the ramification of that event and how it fell, the tension between France and "Germany" afterwards and the empowered Habsburg domination of Europe, weren't a MAJOR factor on European and by extension world politics. It WAS a historical very big deal.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Wait a second. I hate the BI as much as anyone, it's VERY poorly implemented and its peaceful conclusion is absolutely absurd... but let's not for one second try to pretend that the ramification of that event and how it fell, the tension between France and "Germany" afterwards and the empowered Habsburg domination of Europe, weren't a MAJOR factor on European and by extension world politics. It WAS a historical very big deal.

I won't pretend that, but the way the game treats it makes a similarly huge inheritance completely impossible. It's literally only possible with Burgundy in that context. So long as it manifests like that, and under completely inane conditions in many cases at that, it doesn't belong. Why not sometimes see Savoy's land just randomly flip to someone? Maybe Bohemia should just disappear instantly? Portugal?

From a mechanics point of view, the restrictions the game creates are there for a reason. Thinking along the lines that railroads like this are necessary is practically advertising that the game can't fluidly handle the events of the period at its level of abstraction. The big issue there is inconsistency. The game routinely commits the same history-as-convenient application that Wiz himself dismissed when coming from someone else.

 

[zsImmortal]

Wait a second. I hate the BI as much as anyone, it's VERY poorly implemented and its peaceful conclusion is absolutely absurd... but let's not for one second try to pretend that the ramification of that event and how it fell, the tension between France and "Germany" afterwards and the empowered Habsburg domination of Europe, weren't a MAJOR factor on European and by extension world politics. It WAS a historical very big deal.

From European perspective yes. Do keep in mind that until 1750, the territory held by the Mughal empire (roughly, since they didn't hold all of India) had as much or more GDP than all of Western Europe combined, and was only rivaled by Ming and then Qing China. The unification of such populous and wealthy territory brought about much change in the world, it's just not as apparent because it doesn't involve our ancestors (most of us at least) and isn't taught in our schools. The inheriting of a duchy by a royal family and territorial tensions between 2 rivals should be put in perspective.

 

[Korashy]

I won't pretend that, but the way the game treats it makes a similarly huge inheritance completely impossible. It's literally only possible with Burgundy in that context. So long as it manifests like that, and under completely inane conditions in many cases at that, it doesn't belong. Why not sometimes see Savoy's land just randomly flip to someone? Maybe Bohemia should just disappear instantly? Portugal?

From a mechanics point of view, the restrictions the game creates are there for a reason. Thinking along the lines that railroads like this are necessary is practically advertising that the game can't fluidly handle the events of the period at its level of abstraction. The big issue there is inconsistency. The game routinely commits the same history-as-convenient application that Wiz himself dismissed when coming from someone else.

To be fair the code is there to instantly inherit instead of "just" PU, it just doesn't happen at all really. I think it's actually a leftover from EUIII. Jake's first TTM he kept reloading as Ryuku until he instantly inherited Ming and then let rebels collapse him into a horde. Fun times.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

To be fair the code is there to instantly inherit instead of "just" PU, it just doesn't happen at all really. I think it's actually a leftover from EUIII. Jake's first TTM he kept reloading as Ryuku until he instantly inherited Ming and then let rebels collapse him into a horde. Fun times.

AFAIK instantly inheriting something the size of Burgundy is either impossible or requires enormous diprep and something bigger than Ming at the start ^_^.

 

[Captain Frye]

Imo at this point there is no way to railroad mughals unless Paradox nerfs India in to the ground, which will not happen.

 

[Korashy]

AFAIK instantly inheriting something the size of Burgundy is either impossible or requires enormous diprep and something bigger than Ming at the start ^_^.

Instant inherit is still a mystery to pretty much everyone, it very very very rarely happens with 1-4 province minors, but strictly speaking it's not entirely impossible, just almost infinitely improbable I guess. Just being a nitpicker