The Mughal Empire

[indika_tates]

A simple thread to discuss about something in my opinion have to exist in this game and the AI never and I say never saw in any of my games forming.

The Indian continent without the Mughal empire is unrealistic. Mughals were one of the most powerful muslim empires ever existed. And Timurids almost every game collapses. So what can be the solution?

First off, I think Timurids should resign to Persian territories as it happened via event. Because if rebels spawn, they collapse. The AI can't manage that insane religious unity and even more the persian rebels. In fact they go bankrupt trying to fight rebels in mountains so this is the main reason of the standard timmy collapse. Then, the AI should gain free cores on Delhi and the other provinces required as a way to compensate the loss of persian territories and pointing the AI the correct direction to form the empire. If Ottomans have cores on every Seljuk, Timurids deserves it also. The human player can do it without too much effort.

Then, the ruler and heir of Timurids don't help at all. 1-1-1, and then 1-1-1 with average claim. Can be it modified? An event, a new heir. There is something that happen 100% of the time. If the 1-1-1 heir with the average claim becomes ruler, Timurids explode.

I think Central doab should also be removed from requisites to form the Mughal empire if we want the AI to do it. And to finish it, they should be also a lucky nation. Later on the game there should be events like the Maratha revolts, and all the indian ones to represent the decline of the empire. Mughal Empire is a nation that was neglected since the release of the game and it deserves some flavour, because as I said before, an India without Mughals is not a realistic India.

 

[Galaahd]

I agree that the Mughal empire happening should be a bit more likely.

Besides, China and Japan have a lot of flavour to them. Can't India also get it? Special events and mechanics associated to it?

The Mughal Empire doesn't even have that many events, sadly.

 

[Trin Tragula]

I would also love to see the Mughals form more often but how that can (or should) be achieved is not a simple matter...

 

[indika_tates]

I think my suggestions are not too hard to implement. As long as Persia remain as part of the Timurids, they explode. I think everyone can agree. It's a lot of shia provinces and even a human player can have a lot of problems when trying to hold it. So if Persia revolts via event like Netherlands, Timmies should be encouraged to accept the loss because in fact is a net gain. They lose a lot of provinces but they gain a lot of stability, because the remaining provinces are sunni without any kind of revolt risk and accepted cultures.

Then if they gain free cores (the AI, not the human player) on the required provinces to form the Mughal empire through a mission for example (replace the Riches of India with something like Form the Mughal empire) sometimes the AI will do it.

It can be very regarding seeing a historical and powerful Mughal Empire conquering the India, and collapsing sometimes later in the game like Ming, that sometimes explodes, and sometimes not.

 

[Krajzen]

I would also love to see the Mughals form more often but how that can (or should) be achieved is not a simple matter...

Maybe some dynamic event chain, which makes very powerful Babur's revolt spawn in Delhi/Kabul and create Mughal tag? As well as permanent claims on India.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Maybe some dynamic event chain, which makes very powerful Babur's revolt spawn in Delhi/Kabul and create Mughal tag? As well as permanent claims on India.

Such an event would be every bit as bad as the Dutch event, if not worse, if the conditions that caused Babur to even target India in the first place aren't in play.

 

[Umega]

Well in real life, the Timurid empire did completely collapse. It was only a timurid successor that refounded the mongol dynasty in afghanistan. The 600 development requirement to form Mughals is kind of silly, when really it started out small where the Dehli sultanate once stood..

 

[indika_tates]

Maybe some dynamic event chain, which makes very powerful Babur's revolt spawn in Delhi/Kabul and create Mughal tag? As well as permanent claims on India.

That's a nice solution. They should defect to Timurids and it's a nice way to replace the Timurid heir with Babur.

Such an event would be every bit as bad as the Dutch event, if not worse, if the conditions that caused Babur to even target India in the first place aren't in play.

You are right of course. Both events should trigger. So if it were possible to have this two events firing you achieve two goals. One of them, is a Persian nation without bankrupting the timmies which already happen most of the time. And the other one is "softening" the AI the requisites to form the Mughal empire

 

[Grand Historian]

While I would love to see the Mughals get more flavor and form often, I would like to point out that an India without the Mughals is indeed realistic, assuming they would never form. The early success of the Mughals was heavily dependent on luck (or, more accurately, the timing of Babur's invasion, since the Lodi Dynasty was collapsing underneath a prolonged civil war), and Babur's own military brilliance and cannonry. Had he made any missteps early on, or even just timed his advance wrongly, the Rajputs would have probably defeated him and ended up gaining Delhi, or the Lodi might have even pushed him back into Afghanistan and the Uzbeks would have ended up crushing him as well.

 

[Freudia]

I'd like to see Mughals form more often in AI hands, but I don't agree with doing it for the sake of 'realism', especially if 'realism' causes a negative impact on gameplay. Just forcing the Mughals to spawn by event 'just because the Mughals existed historically' is bad, especially if the conditions for the Mughals to form and rise to power don't logically exist, as TMIT pointed out, and such ridiculousness flies in the face of history and reason much in the same way being unable to declare wars inside a regency.

So basically, I'm okay with seeing Mughals form more often, but I'd rather it be organically or logically rather than ham-fisted. So basically, something more plausible than something like the Dutch revolts currently in the game.

 

[Matsume]

I would also love to see the Mughals form more often but how that can (or should) be achieved is not a simple matter...

They cant achieve this because the only horde that can actually do something (even then, only sometimes) is the Manchurians , and thats because they can actually afford A HORDE.
The generic Horde Ideas need a -20% regiment cost like the manchurians used to have, because as it is, you cant even dream of mantaining 50% of your force limit to keep figthing like the game wants you to do. The hordes need to fight, but cant afford 5 cavalry regiments cause they cost the same as some Noble French Knight on the other side of the world that lives in full luxury...Just paradox logic in action.

I moded back the -20% regiment cost in place of the USELESS -10% AE and in my games the hordes are performing much better, sometimes even eating muscovy (Thats does everything that the horde should do, only better and the lands are 10X richer.....).

 

[mattkunz]

A somewhat less railroaded way to go, would be to add an event or decision, that allows a Timurid Empire, that has lost most of it's Persian provinces, to give up it's cores and remaining provinces in Persia in exchange for stability, legitimacy, expunging some loans, and maybe some manpower recovery. The Timurid heartlands are strong enough, for even an ai to expand eastward, if they didn't have to deal with all the fallout of their collapse. I don't know enough about the Timurids, to say whether there is a way to package this in any way that seems historical.

 

[PiriReis]

It should be easier for TIM to form Mughals.

 

[Korashy]

If we have determinism in Europea a 'la inheritance, wedding, netherlands, we can give Timmy some love. If persia is fixed somehow, you could point the AI in the right direction via missions as is already working well with Ottoman, who probably have the best set of missions to guide the AI.

 

[zsImmortal]

I would also love to see the Mughals form more often but how that can (or should) be achieved is not a simple matter...

Succession problems for Turkish/Altaic cultures is notoriously lacking (and Iranian coincidently). That's one part.

A second should probably make vassal development count for forming (since the Mughal empire used local aristocracy and rulers a lot).

Overall, I just don't think how EU4 is lends itself to the conditions of the conquest of Delhi by Babur (starting around 1506 for a start date makes it plainly obvious if one wanted to push that kind of situation beforehand). Realm splintering and capacity to raise and lead troops simply aren't in the game's design. Even Persia's presence in the game (i.e. how they spawn) leaves a lot to be desired. So honestly, just making the Timurids something other than food for other nations would probably be sufficient.

 

[luxfelix]

Maybe an event, after Persia breaks free, could provide the Timurids with permanent claims on northern India, and when owning key provinces in the region, another event for permanent claims on another region of India (etc.)?

With a substantial portion of India under the Mughals, then begin a tick for a disaster to increase the chances of dissolution/colonization?

 

[indika_tates]

While I would love to see the Mughals get more flavor and form often, I would like to point out that an India without the Mughals is indeed realistic, assuming they would never form. The early success of the Mughals was heavily dependent on luck (or, more accurately, the timing of Babur's invasion, since the Lodi Dynasty was collapsing underneath a prolonged civil war), and Babur's own military brilliance and cannonry. Had he made any missteps early on, or even just timed his advance wrongly, the Rajputs would have probably defeated him and ended up gaining Delhi, or the Lodi might have even pushed him back into Afghanistan and the Uzbeks would have ended up crushing him as well.

So if the most important thing about the Mughal success was a military genius like Babur, why not representing it ingame? England has Margaret of Anjou. Castille has Isabella of Trastamara. Timurids should have a mighty babur militaristic leader. He shouldn't appear just at the start. Persia should break free without collapsing the Timurids. And later, timmies can replace their ruler/heir with an event like the examples before, gaining cores on the required provinces for the AI and permanent claims for the human player.

Do you remember the old Scottish event when fighting with England?. Small stacks of troops that appear to represent historically what happened. It can be the same. Some free units for Timurids to encourage the AI fighting Delhi around 1500 more or less. Events that can appear or not the way like Burgundian inheritance MTTH.

There a lot of ways to achieve, I read in this post a lot of good suggestions like dynamic chain events, but I think that without events that soften the requeriments for forming Mughals the AI will never do it (and I never saw Timmies forming Mughals in hundred games) .

 

[AndreasPhokas]

Perhaps after the timurids lose Persia, a strong timurid leader has a chance to appear via event. he spawns in, and the timurids gain increased manpower etc etc during his reign and claims(maybe cores?) on parts of northern india which will help push them towards delhi.

although if we do increase the likely hood of the Mughals hopefully the Maratha revolt gets look at as well.

 

[Tacticus101]

Babur was not ruler of the Timurids, he was "A" Timurid King who ruled a tiny state and only claimed the title of Emperor after all other Timurid states had been defeated (and it meant very little). If there is an event that gives cores on Deli, it should not really be the Timurids who get it unless they are almost OPM level. Personally, I like the idea of having Mughals as one of the states that can pop out of the Timurids, then give THEM a helping hand invading India.

I will note though that is any game Timurids don't collapse to rebels, they seem to very frequently invade india due to all their missions there. Most games so far I have seen Timurids begin invasions and vassalise a few indian states before collapsing.

 

[Captain Frye]

A simple thread to discuss about something in my opinion have to exist in this game and the AI never and I say never saw in any of my games forming.

The Indian continent without the Mughal empire is unrealistic. Mughals were one of the most powerful muslim empires ever existed. And Timurids almost every game collapses. So what can be the solution?

First off, I think Timurids should resign to Persian territories as it happened via event. Because if rebels spawn, they collapse. The AI can't manage that insane religious unity and even more the persian rebels. In fact they go bankrupt trying to fight rebels in mountains so this is the main reason of the standard timmy collapse. Then, the AI should gain free cores on Delhi and the other provinces required as a way to compensate the loss of persian territories and pointing the AI the correct direction to form the empire. If Ottomans have cores on every Seljuk, Timurids deserves it also. The human player can do it without too much effort.

Then, the ruler and heir of Timurids don't help at all. 1-1-1, and then 1-1-1 with average claim. Can be it modified? An event, a new heir. There is something that happen 100% of the time. If the 1-1-1 heir with the average claim becomes ruler, Timurids explode.

I think Central doab should also be removed from requisites to form the Mughal empire if we want the AI to do it. And to finish it, they should be also a lucky nation. Later on the game there should be events like the Maratha revolts, and all the indian ones to represent the decline of the empire. Mughal Empire are a nation that was neglected since the release of the game and it deserves some flavour, because as I said before, an India without Mughals is not a realistic India.

You have to understand that the rise of the Mughals wasn't a historical inevitability at all. It was rather the result of a set of lucky circumstances. Yes, it's nice to have Mughals dominate India, but it shouldn't be railroaded just because it happened IRL.