The Mother of our Failures: i came so close (despite all the bugs) [UPDATE] i made it with tips from this thread, check new post at the end of thr.

[Karlington]

Unless you for some reason don't want to go feudal at all you should do it as early as possible.
"Not too early" seems to be terrible advice.

It makes a little bit more sense now that tribal buildings actually get converted into feudal buildings, yet I agree that waiting too long doesn't make much sense (unless you're planning on an all-tribal playthrough and never settling down, of course).

 

[Karlington]

This is ridiculously contradictory, and even then, meaningless.

If you want high development, you stop being a tribe after the first 20 years of the game. Period. Also; good MAA stacks can defeat levies multiple times their sizes. You don't really need all that much gold to make buildings. And saving it is quite easy.

I agree with your post except for this:

Moreover, so long as you don't reform too quickly but you do feudalize, you'll be able to raid still.

You can't adopt feudal ways if you have an unreformed faith.

 

[Bodemdrift]

If you want high development, you stop being a tribe after the first 20 years of the game

Literally not possible for the first 100 y ears, unless you mean to go Clan

 

[Siri]

how in the Nine Hells of Baator did you get a chaplain with a score over 25, let alone 45 ?

Lay Clergy and temporal revocable clergy. With a huge empire some of your vassals/relatives will have high learning, given how easy it is easy to get learning in this game.

Also one of the Bori holy site gives +5 learning to all Bori followers.

There's a few things at work here. The holy site is one thing, but I'll expand on why Lay Clergy and Temporal doctrines are important.
Temporal is important because it lets you pick your own priest. You never have to deal with the complete dump stat priest with 4 learning again. Being allowed to pick whomever you want as long as they follow your religion means you'll usually be able to get someone in the 20 range, even if you may have to dig someone up through marriage.

So say we now how our theoretical 20 learning priest. We then apply Lay Clergy. The important thing here is that only characters who own titles of count and above are allowed to pick a lifestyle, and the learning lifestyle adds SO much learning. If you have a lot of people to choose from, one of them will have gone down the scholar route which will give them: +5 from scholar itself, up to +10 depending on their level of devotion, +1-3 from their lifestyle focus, and then whatever they get from learn on the job. Could be 1, could be 15. And finally, they also get 20% of their spouses learning, it's usually around 2 but it could also be a lot more. The lifestyle adding so much to the learning score means that you'll usually favour much older candidates so they've had time to build it up, and that's why I prefer using the "for life" appointment method rather than "revocable". If your priest dies when you have revocable set then their randomly appointed successor is locked to their slot for 10 years, but this does not happen if you appoint people for life. You get to change it right away after death, and can just keep picking old people with better stats knowing that they'll die soon anyway if someone better comes along.

All this added together means that 45 is not that ridiculously high. You'd just need 25 from other sources after getting the good base priest, and as you can see you can easily pick up 25 from lifestyles along with the holy site. Indeed, 45 is nowhere near the best one I've had. The best one I've had had a learning in the 70s, but that wasn't while I was doing this achievement. Sad times.

 

[Karlington]

Literally not possible for the first 100 y ears, unless you mean to go Clan

Aren't the requirements the same for going feudal and clan?

I think he means doing it through your liege, though. If you have a feudal or clan liege most of the requirements are waived, so all you need is to be of an organized (not unreformed) religion and increase tribal authority one step.

 

[Foefaller]

So, I though I'd pull up the save where I did this and see if I can give more help/pointers. Was able to accomplish is right around 1200, so it took about 340 years to do it all.

-Was lucky enough to form Kanem-Bornu and reform Bori in Daurma's lifetime. Most of my forced restarts, in fact, were due to Daurma's rival, one of her husband's concubines, successfully murdering her before I could do anything >_<. My trick was to pick up Befriend and the stress relief bonus from Family Hierarch and then go down the August tree for the Vassalization acceptance bonus. With Daurma's incredible starting diplo skill, after a few conquests it's pretty much nothing to befriend and vassalize any Hausa Bori counts once you reach Duke tier, and any Central Africa Bori in general once you're a Queen (and your Husband too) The Kingdom of Kanem formed before I could get to them, so I saved my Subjugation War for them. After that, once I had noone left who would join because we're friends, I started raiding and executing as much as I could, all those friends making sure I got almost no stress from it despite Daurma's Honest and Just traits, and got a few more to join once they were scared of me. Then it was just a few more conquests until I had enough to form the empire and all but one of the de-jure kingdoms in it for my daughters to inherit. Then, I switched to Learning and was just able to get Prophet and reform a few years before she died.

-Faith I created switched Adorcism with Medicant Preacher, was Fundamentalist with Lay Clergy and a Temporal head, and for RP purposes, was Female-Dominanted and Polygamous (which, be warned, does still result in more kids vs a Monogamous marriage even though there is only one woman involved, had 2467 dynast members by the end) In retrospect, I probably should have replaced Ritual Celebrations with something else, as the extra opinion and faith from feasts wasn't as useful as I thought it would be, and not go full RP and instead kept Female Adultery as criminal so I could have some easy title revocations for the next generation of princesses to inherit, but all in all it was pretty great at spreading the faith to conquered lands.

-Rather than take the very excellent Idea of rushing to Egypt to be Egyptian, I actually moved to Kanem and remained Hausa, converting the local culture to Hausa so I would get the innovation bonus from increasing my capital development there. FYI, this seems to be a signal to any AI vassal of your Culture that they should start doing the same thing, rather than convert to local culture like you usually see, so by the end Hausa culture spread from the eastern edge of Ghana to the Red Sea, with pockets in West Africa, Berber states, Eygpt... and Medina. Kinda makes me wonder what would have happened if I had done Communal Identity.

-Made the switch to Feudalism right around 1060 (how do I know the date? because the culture innovation screen shows the years your culture was in that era, and it takes about 3-4 years once you qualify for the next era before it's unlocked) If I made the switch to Egyptian I would have likely pulled it off a century and a half earlier (as they had unlocked Early Medieval in 912, hence it being an excellent idea) but it was soon enough, as at the time I believe I was just a few counties away from new Empires showing up next confederate Partition. In preparation for the drop in income, I had stockpiled several K worth of gold so I could immediately build the Grand Temple in Gaurmele and a city and Temple in pretty much every county I controlled, and even for a few in the domains of my direct vassals (since I would see a bigger slice of it) this eventually gave me enough of an early income boost that calling my now paid-in-gold MaAs wouldn't put me in massive monthly debt, which gave me a chance to further develop until the Kingdom of Kanem at the very least could be as clustered as parts of Europe. Still, by the end it was pretty much the only once-tribal part of Africa built up to such a degree; while pretty much everywhere else has decked-out castles, it's just a castle and nothing else in the county, so I do wonder how it could have been if I made the Cultural switch rather than RP remaining as Hausa and slowing climbing the tech tree that way.

-After hitting Empire, biggest obstacle to taking all of Africa by the end was the Byzantines, obviously, though in my game West Francia had become the Empire of Francia and had helped Asturias conquer most of Iberia (they even became the Empire of Hispania, though only at the very end) and were allies much of the game, so taking back the parts of Maghreb they had conquered was a chore as well. Still, even a Byzantine Empire that controlled all it's de jure lands, of the empire of Khazaria, and most of Russia, Volga-Ural, the entire Caspians Sea and the Kingdoms of Persia, Syria and Jazira was no match to the Empress and Inna of 99% of Africa.

-And like I mentioned in my earlier post, in the tactic I used to get the last few counties to switch to the right faith was by convincing the holder to convert so their capital county would convert as well. Since Bori had been made Fundamentalist, anyone who wasn't that or Old Bori was open to title revocation, so it wasn't hard to get someone who would convert in place even if the current holder wouldn't.

Anyway, that's my breakdown, hope it helps.

Also, honorable mention to Petrus of House Petridi in this game. Though this Lombardy noble died the landless husband of a Countess and his main line would die out soon after, his dynasty would end up the rulers of the British Isles!... and parts of Novgorod, for some reason.

 

[Pollux26]

You can't adopt feudal ways if you have an unreformed faith.

There are ways around it temporarily. For example: if in Africa, kidnap or befriend an Ibadi (or Coptic) lowborn until he joins your court. Have him educate your heir until about age 10 at which point his faith would change to that of his guardian's if you've enabled that option. Then you'll play as a reformed/organized faith upon succession for just the necessary time to become feudal. Subsequently, do the opposite with your heirs. Have all of your court educate them as pagans again. I've done this sort of shenanigans with educations for the longest time I've played CK3 and just take it for granted at this point.

 

[Pollux26]

Literally not possible for the first 100 y ears, unless you mean to go Clan

Why? You get enough prestige to enact tribal law 4 after 20 years of gametime. Just educate your heir as Ibadi or Coptic, or swear fealty to someone who is, then it's done.

 

[Karlington]

There are ways around it temporarily. For example: if in Africa, kidnap or befriend an Ibadi (or Coptic) lowborn until he joins your court. Have him educate your heir until about age 10 at which point his faith would change to that of his guardian's if you've enabled that option. Then you'll play as a reformed/organized faith upon succession for just the necessary time to become feudal. Subsequently, do the opposite with your heirs. Have all of your court educate them as pagans again. I've done this sort of shenanigans with educations for the longest time I've played CK3 and just take it for granted at this point.

Nice idea, thanks!

Do you even need to get them over to your court, by the way? I noticed that almost everyone I asked to take on my children as wards accepted, so I just kept sending them out to be educated by foreign Geniuses until I had some in my own court. Heck, even my courtiers' children got a +200 modifier for being a child of my courtier for some reason, and this applied with almost all people. The only one it didn't apply with was the emperor of the Byzantine Empire - I tried asking him to become guardian of a child but the modifier didn't appear with him.

 

[Bodemdrift]

I think he means doing it through your liege, though.

I AM THE LAW! ... eh, liege.

Jokes aside, the best the game explains it is you need to be a the highest ("absolute") tribal law. (which may be factually incorrect, a lot of things in the game are poorly explained, but i'm going off the infobox presented with the Decision here, which from what i understand from modding, is pretty directly derived from the coded constraints )
Also, you generally become king of hausaland rather quickly, so playing that through a liege is a lost option. (for me, in my current re-try, at least)

 

[Bodemdrift]

The fact OP didn't manage over the whole timespan of the game and yet presents his 'tips' as the only way to play is what prompted me to make the post

That is completely your own interpretation.

Bugs aside, i'm pretty clear in the title that the failure is mine, and any insight i have should betaken with the grain of salt that i did in fact fail. Not that you aren't salty already

You don't need to worry about the heresy of your reformed religion much. There's only going to be one (the original faith - old bori or whichever you reformed), and it still counts towards getting the achievement

Well, cool that i know this now, but the in-game description of the achievement says you have to reform an African religion and convert all of Africa to it. Not the first time in-game text was faulty, i guess.

Starting as Daurama Daura, have your line reform an African faith, and convert all of Africa to it

 

[Secret Master]

Fervor will collapse and you just have to deal with it. One trick is to ask conversion. Go to character finder and select "Not Bori", then ask conversion for those who have a high opinion of you. If they convert this way their capital county will convert with them, saving you a lot of time. Send gifts beforehand if necessary.

Yep. This works particularly well if you have either vassals that love you or you can abduct people. Anyone who loves me will probably convert right back. Those who don't either get revoked (but that doesn't instantly swap the capital back) or get abducted. Those who get abducted end up getting released from prison if they will convert back, which swaps the capital back to your faith.

Another wonderful little trick is that if a bunch of vassals embrace heresy, your fervor goes back up, so some of them are willing to come right back because your faith isn't stupid anymore.

 

[Bodemdrift]

After hitting Empire, biggest obstacle to taking all of Africa by the end was the Byzantines

My best way of countering that was to have a reformed religion that had GHW, and trigger that on them a few years after i assassinated the Basileus to put his child-heir on the throne (which guarantees rebellions in this game).

if you have other tips, i'd love to hear.

 

[Foefaller]

My best way of countering that was to have a reformed religion that had GHW, and trigger that on them a few years after i assassinated the Basileus to put his child-heir on the throne (which guarantees rebellions in this game).

if you have other tips, i'd love to hear.

I'd say the biggest is the one mentioned already a few times; reform the faith as Fundamentalist and Lay Clergy, plus some bonus to conversion like Medicant Preachers. Then the AI will do the bulk of the converting for you as long as your direct vassal in the area is your faith, and with Lay Clergy you will have a larger pool of options for your Court Chaplain to deal with the spots that aren't getting converted for whatever reason. That way you can focus less on conversion and more about expanding before Abbassids or Byzantine or whomever blob enough to pose a serious obstacle to control all of Africa. No realm native to Africa was really any sort of threat to me in my run by the 920's thanks to that.

Friend of mine also pointed out that while making adultery only shunned in my run might have given me fewer opportunities to revoke titles, it also meant that anyone controlling a temple getting caught in the act wasn't a "Sinful Priest" event that dropped Bori Fervor, so there is a bit of pro/con there.

 

[Bodemdrift]

I'd say the biggest is the one mentioned already a few times; reform the faith as Fundamentalist and Lay Clergy, plus some bonus to conversion like Medicant Preachers.

I just tried that in my new playthrough. It resulted in an IMMEDIATE Old Bori Populist revolt

i don't know whether to laugh or cry, because i also went from 50K armies, to 4K due to going Feudal, which people keep insisting is the best way to go, but ruins me every time.

[edit]
And during one of those rebellions, a 40K stack of Byzantines just declared on me, which i could have easily handled while tribal, but my <4K feudal armies can't possibly cope, and now neither can my allies.

*weeping noises*

 

[Siri]

I just tried that in my new playthrough. It resulted in an IMMEDIATE Old Bori Populist revolt

i don't know whether to laugh or cry, because i also went from 50K armies, to 4K due to going Feudal, which people keep insisting is the best way to go, but ruins me every time.

[edit]
And during one of those rebellions, a 40K stack of Byzantines just declared on me, which i could have easily handled while tribal, but my <4K feudal armies can't possibly cope, and now neither can my allies.

*weeping noises*

For what it's worth I never bothered reforming to feudal when I did the achievement. It depends a bit on how fast you go. If you want to reform you first need to make sure that what you have is stable, you've built all the buildings you can in your personal domain, that your vassals like you enough to reform with you (most of them anyway) and also that you have cash on hand to fix problems that arise as well as build new things like utilising all the holding slots you previously couldn't. You also need to go through all your vassals' vassals and ask them to convert as well because only your direct vassals convert automatically. It's good if they like you, and being a diplomatic character with the perk that increases gift efficiency by 100% is very helpful for this. Every vassal's vassal that converts will also convert their capital county, reducing the military strength of any populist movement that might be rising. It takes quite a lot of time for feudal to actually overtake tribal in strength, in my anecdotal experience that doesn't happen until some techs into high medieval. If you do move to feudal then expect to be significantly weaker than you were for a hundred years. Personal domain also matters more in feudal than tribal because you don't get the same absurd tax rates that tribes get, so consider placing extra importance on things that increase stewardship, like your spouse's council task.

I finished my first time shortly before 1050, and my second time I was a bit faster. I don't have a screenshot to remind myself but I'd expect in the 1020-1030 range. If you're anywhere near on time for doing that, then don't bother with feudal, it's not going to help you. If you're planning for a long game then it may even be easier to stay relatively small until you've done your reformation, adopted feudal ways, and built yourself back up again.

 

[giovdb]

View attachment 641287
My time is almost up, and i know i will not make the achievement, but it was quite a ride trying to get there.

The tips i have is:

1) Don't go Feudal too early, try to murder or disinherit your children as much as you can , and don't worry about the traditions, they are massively under-powered anyway, so just spend that renown like the worthless currency it is.

2) indulgences are the ONLY way to fly, once you go Feudal, since army upkeep is so ridiculously expensive, and people get upset if you end up in debt. For this achievement you need to reform Boori religion and i strongly recommend you receive that sweet cash influx every now and then.

3) go For Egypt as soon as you can, their development and holdings density will break you in the end if you don't keep them in check early.

The bugs that contributed to this failure:
- Celibacy perk+decision does literally nothing, you still get pregnant (this is a known/reported bug)
- AI allies bugging out and doing nothing (known/reported bug)
- Fervor collapse bug/bad design (same thing, really. known/reported bug)
- AI picking the wrong marriage-type for grandchildren (and in general. known/reported bug)
- Random loss of Devotion levels due to doing literally nothing (besides naming my cat)
- Confederate Partition existing


Beside my personal inability to chase the Jahan out of their ONE county they have in Africa (lol me), the greatest problem is fervor collapse and the subsequent heresies/people reverting to Old Boori, and then staring the old boring 'polulist uprising' treadmill every 10 years.

Also the Muwalladi's, [BLEEP] the Muwalladi's and their false prophet.

[edit]
Added religion map to show just how hopeless the situation is.
Fervor scaling with an inverse relation to the size of the religion is REALLY Boori-damned stupid. someone-should-be-spanked stupid.

View attachment 641295

Can't you just do an all de jure war on Byzantine? Or do you not have the appropriate kingdoms and/or empires?

Edit: Oh, the conversion is the issue. Got it.

 

[giovdb]

I just tried that in my new playthrough. It resulted in an IMMEDIATE Old Bori Populist revolt

i don't know whether to laugh or cry, because i also went from 50K armies, to 4K due to going Feudal, which people keep insisting is the best way to go, but ruins me every time.

[edit]
And during one of those rebellions, a 40K stack of Byzantines just declared on me, which i could have easily handled while tribal, but my <4K feudal armies can't possibly cope, and now neither can my allies.

*weeping noises*

Are you demanding conversion after each war? And if they decline, are you imprisoning and revoking titles? Also remember to keep your dread at 100 (by killing prisoners, preferably lowborn ones). Rebellions really shouldn't be this bad.

 

[Bodemdrift]

Are you demanding conversion after each war? And if they decline, are you imprisoning and revoking titles? Also remember to keep your dread at 100 (by killing prisoners, preferably lowborn ones). Rebellions really shouldn't be this bad.

Yeah, every Vassal that lands in my prison walks out converted or not at all.
The rebellions, for me at least, are mostly a problem when your military dips dramatically after converting to Feudal.

I guess my mistake was doing the two changes too close together, a lesson for next time.

 

[Foefaller]

I just tried that in my new playthrough. It resulted in an IMMEDIATE Old Bori Populist revolt

i don't know whether to laugh or cry, because i also went from 50K armies, to 4K due to going Feudal, which people keep insisting is the best way to go, but ruins me every time.

[edit]
And during one of those rebellions, a 40K stack of Byzantines just declared on me, which i could have easily handled while tribal, but my <4K feudal armies can't possibly cope, and now neither can my allies.

*weeping noises*

Perhaps me sticking as Hausa kept me from going Feudal too early, because while I believe I lost a war or two against Byzantium early on after the swap, it wasn't too long before I was at the point I could beat them (though I think it might have taken a bit of strategic targeting of split stacks so that reinforcements would arrive too late to change the outcome, rather than just being able to take on the whole army as long as I didn't pick a spot where they had a large combat advantage.)

Perhaps, instead of swapping ASAP, wait until you've grown to the point pretty much any more conquest anywhere in Africa would mean a new empire poping up on succession thanks to Confederate Partition? (or speed up the early conquering so that you are more or less at that point by the time you can go Feudal.) The levies you get from controlling 80% of Africa is going to be a lot, whether it's strong tribes or newly feudal realms with an empty castle and nothing else.

Also, one of the first 2-3 invovations you should probably focus on after swapping should be the one that unlocks High and Absolute Crown Authority. While you might not want to go as far as Absolute until you're down to Byzantium and anyone else that's too big for a single vassal to deal with, forcing those vassals who have no exterior targets to stop warring each other will have them eventually start using all that would-be levy wages to actually develop their fledgling realm instead.