The most useless and the best idea

[Peter Ebbesen]

How about Ottomans? They have Ottoman Tolerance, you don't need to convert anyway

Religious CB is awesome for an expanding power, cheaper stability, increased tolerance to own religion, and increased prestige is nice for everybody, increased tolerance to heretics is nice for those who don't bother to convert (though of course, even as Ottomans without religious ideas you are better off if you convert than if you don't ), and finally +100% better relations is truly awesome and something that everybody wanting to expand on a large scale in SP should get. The three random stability increasing events that are tied to religious ideas are pretty nice too - with so many, you've got a reasonable chance of them cropping up, though of course, the more idea groups you get (i.e. later in the game), the less frequently you'll see them.

Basically... Are you planning on conquest on a large scale? Are you ever in the situation - or anticipating being in the situation - where you feel that AE limits your actions? Then religious ideas are great for you. If not, possibly not.

 

[unmerged(80402)]

Thinking about it, if you are prussia, have defensive and innovative ideas, and all prussian ideas + have war college, you have permanent 100% war tradition... Prussia op.

 

[Novacat]

After studying the latest changes in the 1.3 patch... I can say this:
Administrative Tree is Awesome now.

A lot of this has to do with the fact Miltia act required Economic. Now, however, it was changed to requiring Administrative. This, combined with other changes, have made Administrative pretty much mandatory (even if you never use mercs) while Economic is just an optional 'nice to have' tree. Especially since the most important economic bonus, +20% Production Efficiency, is in both trees.

Economic is a bit more niche, the dissolution act is a nice stab cost reducer but its only 5%, religious has 25% reduction as well as other bonuses. Given, Economic is great if you play one of those few countries with inflation issues but otherwise its just sort of unnecessary unless you already got administrative and need moar money for bigger armies.

Quantity is pointless... I'm almost surprised Peter Ebbesen hasn't popped in to give you one of his lectures Seriously though, the manpower benefits alone make it worth it, that +50% manpower is so juicy. And then there's the fact that you can have and sustain massive armies- rolling over enemies with superior numbers is *always* a valid strategy.

You get better manpower from army buildings, and costs less military MP to boot. If you REALLY need a manpower multiplier, Offensive is better, it gives +25% Manpower and +25% Land Forcelimits, which is not that far behind the +33% Forcelimits quantity gives. On top of that, the -10% cost reductions are pitiful, they will barely impact your bottom line and you will get greater benefit from Economic. After all, why reduce troop costs by 10% when you can boost your economy by 15% with Economic idea group and support 15% more troops.

 

[Avernite]

You get better manpower from army buildings, and costs less military MP to boot. If you REALLY need a manpower multiplier, Offensive is better, it gives +25% Manpower and +25% Land Forcelimits, which is not that far behind the +33% Forcelimits quantity gives. On top of that, the -10% cost reductions are pitiful, they will barely impact your bottom line and you will get greater benefit from Economic. After all, why reduce troop costs by 10% when you can boost your economy by 15% with Economic idea group and support 15% more troops.

Why not get economic and quantity both?

Sure, at some point you have to prioritise... but still, having what Peter calls DOQ^2 can be coupled with 4 other idea groups. Religious is an obvious addition (since having DOQ^2 implies military expansion), but that still leaves choices enough.

 

[hauptman]

Well I play as the Ottomans and I'm doing just fine without religious idea. I've never had any significant war-exhaustion nor problems with stability. I took quite a lot provinces so far and I see no reason why it should've been easier with religious idea.

And I can win a war without ever taking a single military idea....

Obviosly the point is lost on you atm.

The point is, it makes everything easier. I mean everything. I honestly cannot think of one game aspect that religious does not dirrectly benefit.

+1 prestige = more morale, better relations, more PUs.
+1 tolerance = -1 revolt risk everywhere, -3 for heretics is kind of wasted, since you can convert them in 6 months with this idea set.
Conversion = more income, less revolts, saving manpower and yet more money.
-25% stab cost = more admin points for coring, reducing inflation, building stuff, faster idea sets.
100% relations = conquering twice the amount of land with half the coalitions.

Random events. the +1 stab event fires more often then that blasted comet does.

 

[hauptman]

Thinking about it, if you are prussia, have defensive and innovative ideas, and all prussian ideas + have war college, you have permanent 100% war tradition... Prussia op.

Was seriosly considering that as my next idea set for that very reason... Innovative OP. plus i have 4 armies and only 3 generals, I can save a few heirs this way as well.

 

[Pornek]

Imo best about Quantity is the 'Young can serve' idea. There are hardly any modifiers for manpower recovery speed you can get. If you can combine it with the Plutocarcy group it is just a godsend.

 

[Novacat]

Why not get economic and quantity both?

My choices for military ideas are usually Offense, Defense, and Quality. Unfortunately, that leaves little room for Quantity. Even worse for Republics since Plutocracy will be added in the mix.

Administrative is pretty much mandatory, Economic and Innovative too.

I usually pick Expansion a a diplomatic idea. Its not great (unless your expanding in Asia, and then its rediculously uber), but its probably the least bad and gets rid of a bunch of floating DIP points. It gets you some diplomatic relations/reputation which is nice, trade power which helps your trade income, and gives you a merchant and colonist. Its not the best but its not deadweight.

So, 7 ideas picked. Given, Expansion can be swapped out for other dip ideas if you need them, such as naval for naval powers and exploration for explorers.

The 8th could be any of the following -
Any DIP Idea: A lot of countries will need 2 dip ideas for whatever reason. One example would be Naval + Exploration.
Religious: I dont need to explain why this one is good, but imho some countries can go without it which is why I listed it here.
Aristocracy: Also provides manpower and a myriad of other bonuses. Enemy Core Creation seems useless but it actually is pretty useful in that it deters the AI from invading you (The AI Actually looks at how much it will cost to core your provinces before launching a war for territory). There are a number of decisions that provide permanent, decent economic bonuses. The only bad thing is that you MUST pick Aristocracy + Economic early, as Innovative idea group will disable many of those decisions. Also, do NOT pick Aristocracy if you are not getting Economic as well, but chances are if your getting aristocracy you are getting economic as well. The modifiers from the permanent decisions are -5% Stability cost, +5% Global Tax, and +5% Production Efficiency. Not great, but not terrible either.
Quantity: If you really dont like Aristocracy, and Religious is not for you, in this case id pick Quantity. Again, my complaint with Quantity is that the bonuses are too small, +33% Land Force Limit is pitiful, and -10% Cost/-10% maintenance will barely put a dent in your bottom line. It really fails in letting you field 'moar' troops. Only the manpower bonus is good but army buildings are still by far the most effective way to fix any manpower 'problems'.

 

[Pornek]

Can you explain why administrative is mandatory?

 

[TheBloke]

Of all the deficiencies in the UI, the one that bothers me the most is that there's almost no mention, anywhere, of the extra events that come with certain decisions and Ideas. Maybe this is an intentional 'feature' rather than them just lacking the time/desire to implement it, maybe it's meant to be a surprise, or an uncertainty for the user.

But in practice it just means that there are large implications to the game that the majority of users will never find out about, and that for the few that do research (i.e. anyone on the forum), they pick up the information slowly and piecemeal. So it's not an effective 'surprise', and therefore I don't think it should be hidden at all.

The OExt tooltip refers to being over 100% causing "nasty rebels regularly". That the only mention of changed/added events that I can recall seeing.

And it's not only events. There's also mutually exclusive decisions. One I read in the forum was Privateers vs Piracy act - taking one decision will block the other. But it doesn't mention anywhere in the Piracy decision that taking it will block you from getting/taking a later, possibly preferable decision. It would be very easy to have added this to the Requirements section, "Has not taken Privateer act." At least for me, Piracy came first, and it seemed like a no-brainer to take it (5% BROT.) It was only because I happened to have recently read that it would block a later decision, that I couldn't yet see, that made me consider not taking it.

Given how explicit the UI generally is - explaining effects precisely in terms of + and - %s and numbers - it seems odd that these very important effects are usually not enumerated. It might sometimes be a technical limitation - a limit of space in the tooltip and the relative verbosity required to explain all the events that will be added/modified and their effects and their likelihoods (though I still feel that could be handled somehow, at least to some extent.) But other times, as with the Piracy v Privateer decisions, it seems to be wilfully omitted, and I don't get that.

 

[Novacat]

Can you explain why administrative is mandatory?

-25% coring cost, +20% production efficiency, +6% discipline, +5 to Base Land Force Limit, +1 Advisor Pool.

and it seemed like a no-brainer to take it (5% BROT.)

5% BROT is virtually nothing. Its like -.2 AE per year, not worth it. I usually never pick it or the piracy idea.

 

[hauptman]

Any good EU player knows to open the events file and read them before even starting the game, duh..~

 

[Novacat]

Any good EU player knows to open the events file and read them before even starting the game, duh..~

Any good Paradox player. This is my first EU game yet the first thing I did was go through the files.

 

[TheBloke]

5% BROT is virtually nothing. Its like -.2 AE per year, not worth it. I usually never pick it or the piracy idea.

Yeah, but the tooltip for the decision mentions no downside at all. It's click a button, get 5% BROT. So even though it's small, there's absolutely no reason not to get it - or so it seems from what the UI says. In fact there's a very good reason not to get it, but that's hidden, and that's my point: the user doesn't have the necessary information to make an informed decision, and is presented with no reason at all not to make what is actually the wrong decision.

Any good EU player knows to open the events file and read them before even starting the game, duh..~

Yup, and those 5000 players are all fine. It's the other 195,000 that get a raw deal

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

You get better manpower from army buildings, and costs less military MP to boot. If you REALLY need a manpower multiplier, Offensive is better, it gives +25% Manpower and +25% Land Forcelimits, which is not that far behind the +33% Forcelimits quantity gives. On top of that, the -10% cost reductions are pitiful, they will barely impact your bottom line and you will get greater benefit from Economic. After all, why reduce troop costs by 10% when you can boost your economy by 15% with Economic idea group and support 15% more troops.

It is +50% manpower and +33% land force limits and +20% manpower recovery (which effectively works as a multiplier on ALL your +manpower efficiency modifiers from ideas, buildings, and elsewhere as well as your base 100% with respects to refilling your manpower pool) vs +25% manpower and +25% land force limits, leader bonuses, and forced march.

As for the economic benefits of Quantity vs Economic ideas, Quantity provides a 10% reduction cost in recruitment for land and sea and 10% reduction cost in maintenance for land and sea (and base maintenance cost is based on recruitment cost after modifiers), whereas Economic ideas provide more income and only a 10% reduction in maintenance costs for land.

So, what does that mean in practice?

Let's look at the example where you don't have any other idea group but do recruit your armies in provinces with L3 army buildings (for -15% army cost).

The maintenance cost for a regiment recruited in such a province is 0.9*0.85 = 76.5% of the base with Economic Ideas and 0.9*0.75 = 67.5% with Quantity ideas. 75.5%/67.5% ~ 111.8%, so you are relatively paying 11.8% more monthly maintenance using Economic Ideas to reduce army maintenance costs rather than by using Quantity Ideas for the same purpose. And paying more to recruit them in the first place, something which value greatly depends on how often you consolidate regiments and recruit new ones (which again greatly depends on your goals in the game). And, of course, you are paying full price for ship maintenance, because Economic Ideas doesn't reduce ship maintenance either directly or indirectly. A country taking Offensive Ideas and not having any other price reducers would pay 100% of 85% for his regiments, which is 85% of base monthly maintenance, and 85%/67.5% ~ 125.9%, so he is relatively paying 25.9% more monthly maintenance for his armies than the guy who uses Quantity for his manpower needs.

In almost all cases save all-out war against the world or when a country goes seriously over its force limit for one reason or another, Economic Ideas not unsurprisingly provides better economic benefits than Quantity does (and it would need serious rebalancing if it didn't!), but the ability of people to pretend Quantity doesn't significantly impact the army and navy budget by talking about "only -10%" constantly amazes me.

Of course, Quantity becomes even more grotesque when coupled with a country like Russia. The improved manpower recovery speed is awesome by itself, but the cost reductions for the army.... You've got -50% infantry cost from national ideas and -15% from L3 army for a total of -65%, meaning that you pay 100% maintenance of 35% costs, i.e. 35% maintenance. Slap Quantity on top of that you are talking 0.9*0.25 = 22.5% maintenance, where Economic Ideas would only result in 0.9*0.35 = 31.5% maintenance, so you'd effectively be paying 31.5%/22.5% = 40% more army maintenance for your army with Economic Ideas as contrasted with Quantity Ideas. Throw in a late-game Grain Depot or Defensive Ideas (or Economic Ideas) and it becomes even more absurd. But then, Russia is a special case.

 

[Pornek]

-25% coring cost, +20% production efficiency, +6% discipline, +5 to Base Land Force Limit, +1 Advisor Pool.

Hm would actually be interesting to see how -25% coring cost and -25% stab cost (religous admin ideas) would add up over the course of a game.

 

[Pornek]

As for the economic benefits of Quantity vs Economic ideas, Quantity provides a 10% reduction cost in recruitment for land and sea and 10% reduction cost in maintenance for land and sea (and base maintenance cost is based on recruitment cost after modifiers)

Do I get that right? Would that mean regarding maintenance it is more cost efficient to disband old - pre modifer - armies and recrut new ones?

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Do I get that right? Would that mean regarding maintenance it is more cost efficient to disband old - pre modifer - armies and recrut new ones?

Yes and no. Yes, you understood that right, and no, you don't need to disband. Fortunately, the information about which province a regiment was recruited in is stored for each regiment, and the maintenance cost is at all times based on the current recruitment cost in the province in question, not on the cost at the time of recruitment.

So long as you make sure to recruit your armies from provinces in which you eventually construct T3 army buildings, you'll be fine. You'll make substantial savings over time. The same goes for ships, of course, but since the only shipcost reducing building is T4 and early ships tend to be cycled out in favour or later models, it is less important.

 

[Dunarad]

Innovative is the best idea out there because it reduces the mtth of the best event ever, agricultural revolution. I have a game right now with ukraine in wich i picked innovative first and i'm now standing on 30+ provinces with grain, so i get the event like once a year.
You never have too much grain.

 

[Pornek]

Yes and no. Yes, you understood that right, and no, you don't need to disband. Fortunately, the information about which province a regiment was recruited in is stored for each regiment, and the maintenance cost is at all times based on the current recruitment cost in the province in question, not on the cost at the time of recruitment.

So long as you make sure to recruit your armies from provinces in which you eventually construct T3 army buildings, you'll be fine. You'll make substantial savings over time. The same goes for ships, of course, but since the only shipcost reducing building is T4 and early ships tend to be cycled out in favour or later models, it is less important.

Ok, but the modifier is actually independent of the recruitement cost and is applied to the base maintenance and it - I assume - does work the same with inflation and inflation decrease?
Especially the good old +3.00 inflation, +50x event. It does increase your maintenance then ?