The most useless and the best idea

[unmerged(80402)]

Innovate is not bad. -2% army and navy tradition decay is just great. Combined with prussia NI's, you can be at constant 75% war tradition... And additional upkeep free leader, is worth his price in gold. Those bonuses seem weak, until you actualy see them working.

 

[AlricWaskir]

Usually I end up with army tradition close to 100% anyways, so it's not that significant anymore. Of course the more peaceful you play the better the army tradition decay bonus, but then again, if you are more peaceful you need it less The free-military leader is not as useful in my opinion. Military monarch points are usually not really an issue and going over your leader-limit is not a problem. E.g. as a member of the HRE I end up researching military techs around 9 years ahead, even if I spam my military points for harsh treatment, still.. going 4 generals over the limit is just not a big deal (not that you need that many). It's all ok-ish, but there is nothing in this idea tree that comes even close to +100% better relations, additional diplomatic relations, and/or manpower/force limits.

I think if you spend 2800 monarch points into an idea tree it should make a significant difference. Additionally these are admin points. Due to the comet spam events etc. especially early on you are starving for admin points, which by the way is the only reason why I usually go for religious 2nd and not 1st. As stated in the previous post: Everything in the innovative tree is nice to have, but it's not a game changer at all.

 

[pgroves]

Early game trade just isnt worth squat. I could dominate the carrib and chespeeak, send it all to lubeck and make a 10 ducat profit because i need 100s of ships to keep england/spain from stealing it. Or I could just go for the gold mines that are worth 50 ducats and let them colonize for me, then I can claim whales, britany, and north africa later, when trade $$ is HUGE $$.

Trying to corner the blubber market? :wacko:

 

[LordofTurtles]

Expansion is hands down THE best idea around

 

[grisamentum]

Expansion is hands down THE best idea around

Not for any Germanic or Eastern European country (except Russia). Diplomacy is typically better for them.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Innovate is not bad. -2% army and navy tradition decay is just great. Combined with prussia NI's, you can be at constant 75% war tradition... And additional upkeep free leader, is worth his price in gold. Those bonuses seem weak, until you actualy see them working.

Combined with Defensive and the war college, Prussia's rest state is 100% army tradition. Of course, if you play Prussia in the first place, you are likely to stay at near 100% regardless of these Innovativeness or not, at least in SP, due to going on a jack-booted conquest spree.

Between ideas and events, Innovativeness is an incredibly strong general-purposes idea group. For nearly any given playing style, there are a few idea groups that help the playing style more than Innovativeness, but Innovativeness combines extremely well with all playing styles and for that reason is an excellent choice to supplement with.

 

[TheBloke]

It might be 50 years, but TI fades on it's own. and only portugal and castile will do any colonizing before it's gone... They cant grab everything before I can see it. Granted I dont get all the choice picks like every carribean island etc... but it's good enough that karankarwa is always a last ai pick (adjacent to aztec).

Could you expand on this strategy a bit more?

In my latest England 1444 game, I took your advice and did not get Exploration. I took Expansion instead, because it will give me +2 DipRep, which will help a lot as I'm doing a lot more vassalising this game, and also give me the colonist and another merchant and other nice things.

Of course at the moment, I'm hemmed in to the small starting position, completely surrounded by white TI. I can't even go South into Africa - I thought maybe Morocco would be able to see some surrounding provinces, giving me a chance to colonise one, but I Allied with them and it didn't change anything.

So are you saying that I should just ignore the white TI, focus on doing stuff in Europe, until around 1500 or so by when the TI will just start disappearing on its own?

Or can I help this process along in any way? I'm already allied with both Portugal and Castile, so I can see what they see - but it seems this doesn't extend to opening up TI (unless they haven't done so yet, despite being Colonial Powers.)

You mentioned for example that you just DOW the North American Indian nations to see what they see, but I'm wondering how I even get to see those nations, or rather if I just have to wait and hope they appear sooner rather than later, and can't actually influence that myself unless/until I take Exploration.

Thanks!

 

[aqvamare]

TI will vanish, when you have a core province next to it. so, conquer a province next to TI, make sure you can core it, than you can start your colonial game. It is slower than exploration, but doable.

 

[Beagá]

There is no single 100% useless NI group but the worse IMO are Espionage, Quantity and Religious (Religious can be awesome for Russia, but for others simply too situational).

 

[hauptman]

Could you expand on this strategy a bit more?

In my latest England 1444 game, I took your advice and did not get Exploration. I took Expansion instead, because it will give me +2 DipRep, which will help a lot as I'm doing a lot more vassalising this game, and also give me the colonist and another merchant and other nice things.

Of course at the moment, I'm hemmed in to the small starting position, completely surrounded by white TI. I can't even go South into Africa - I thought maybe Morocco would be able to see some surrounding provinces, giving me a chance to colonise one, but I Allied with them and it didn't change anything.

So are you saying that I should just ignore the white TI, focus on doing stuff in Europe, until around 1500 or so by when the TI will just start disappearing on its own?

Or can I help this process along in any way? I'm already allied with both Portugal and Castile, so I can see what they see - but it seems this doesn't extend to opening up TI (unless they haven't done so yet, despite being Colonial Powers.)

You mentioned for example that you just DOW the North American Indian nations to see what they see, but I'm wondering how I even get to see those nations, or rather if I just have to wait and hope they appear sooner rather than later, and can't actually influence that myself unless/until I take Exploration.

Thanks!

Well as England exploration would be less useless... However, all you have to do is go trapsing through the baltic until about 1550. That's about the time the carribean and american coasts will be visible.

I personally stay away from playing most of the majors, because they are simply less exciting, damn near boring. So playing as a minor, it usually takes me until 1550 to actually secure a hold on a nation large enough to support colonizing (cash wise).

 

[hauptman]

There is no single 100% useless NI group but the worse IMO are Espionage, Quantity and Religious (Religious can be awesome for Russia, but for others simply too situational).

Lol, religious situational? I cant think of ONE situation it does not benefit.

 

[TheBloke]

TI will vanish, when you have a core province next to it. so, conquer a province next to TI, make sure you can core it, than you can start your colonial game. It is slower than exploration, but doable.

Well as England exploration would be less useless... However, all you have to do is go trapsing through the baltic until about 1550. That's about the time the carribean and american coasts will be visible.

OK thanks guys!

I personally stay away from playing most of the majors, because they are simply less exciting, damn near boring. So playing as a minor, it usually takes me until 1550 to actually secure a hold on a nation large enough to support colonizing (cash wise).

Yeah I'm a bit of a wuss, always playing majors so far. I still find plenty of situations for excitement, e.g. Ottomans have always been a challenge thus far: they always match me in army size, and I take them on without calling any of my allies. But yeah I haven't so far favoured any really tricky situations, being content to play a bit of an easier game, more relaxing than hardcore. I always find there's plenty to do, though, and lots of 'micro challenges' - oftentimes I save-scum reload an entire, multi-year, multi-hour battle, just to see if I can do it at a lower cost and with more MP remaining; basically competing against myself.

But yes, one of these days I must try a real challenge, and IronMan; maybe both at once

 

[niallmcfc]

There is no single 100% useless NI group but the worse IMO are Espionage, Quantity and Religious (Religious can be awesome for Russia, but for others simply too situational).

Quantity is pointless... I'm almost surprised Peter Ebbesen hasn't popped in to give you one of his lectures Seriously though, the manpower benefits alone make it worth it, that +50% manpower is so juicy. And then there's the fact that you can have and sustain massive armies- rolling over enemies with superior numbers is *always* a valid strategy.

Besides, you get so many spare military points throughout the game, why not go for most of the mil ideas? I'm capping out my mil points almost constantly in a game where I've built level 3 forts and armories in every (modern day) US and Canadian province, and that's with 5/6 mil idea trees.

 

[TheBloke]

Besides, you get so many spare military points throughout the game, why not go for most of the mil ideas? I'm capping out my mil points almost constantly in a game where I've built level 3 forts and armories in every (modern day) US and Canadian province, and that's with 5/6 mil idea trees.

This is a good point and makes me wonder if Paradox should add more things to do with MilPoints, or even re-assign a couple of things that presently cost Admin or Diplo.

In my first couple of games I was absolutely awful for wasting points. For example I hadn't thought of, or read about, vassal feeding, so one time I spent something like 800 admin points coring most of Morocco, at the 200% Berber malus! I was also constantly Reducing War Exhaustion, boosting Stability, converting culture, etc.

So by the time I reached 1650 (from 1444), although I was a large powerful nation (I was England with integrated France, so that wasn't too hard), I was only Admin level 9 and Diplo 10 compared to the rest of the world on 15. But I was on a par with the rest of the world in Miltech, and even could have gone Ahead of Time a couple of times if I wanted. Simply because there were fewer opportunities to spend (and waste!) MilPoints.

I suppose a counter-argument is that it's good to build up a reservoir to allow hiring a bunch of leaders and being over the leader limit. But it still seems that relatively speaking, MilPoints are less used in the game than the others.

Maybe things like being over Force Limits should cost MilPoints (or malus their growth, like being over leader limit does.) Or provide a way to temporarily boost Manpower, or temporarily increase its recovery rate, at a MilPoint (and maybe gold) cost. Or allow double-speed recruitment of regiments, at a per-regiment MP cost. Things like that.

 

[TejaAmelung]

Lol, religious situational? I cant think of ONE situation it does not benefit.

How about Ottomans? They have Ottoman Tolerance, you don't need to convert anyway

 

[niallmcfc]

Maybe things like being over Force Limits should cost MilPoints (or malus their growth, like being over leader limit does.) Or provide a way to temporarily boost Manpower, or temporarily increase its recovery rate, at a MilPoint (and maybe gold) cost. Or allow double-speed recruitment of regiments, at a per-regiment MP cost. Things like that.

I just want a way to trade and loan monarch points... Say I have 999MIL and another player has 999ADM, we should be able to trade (representing things like sending members of the army/ bureaucracy to the other country to help them). Loaning would work in a similar way- say, take a 100 DIP loan and pay back depending on your current interest rate (just like a cash loan).

The trade system would also be a good way to model things like the American Revolutionary War where every european nation and their mother sent some form of aid to the US (send MIL points, help a nation advance tech/ gain generals).

 

[hauptman]

Well now you get wartaxes for mil points. I use that quite often now. doubles my income for 2 years (because I'm an army that posseses a state) for 50 milpts, sign me up!

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Quantity is pointless... I'm almost surprised Peter Ebbesen hasn't popped in to give you one of his lectures

It is no secret that I like the DOQ^2 (the standard multiplayer land power setup), DQ^2, and OQ^2 setups. Quantity is never my first pick - I always start with either Defensive for melting enemies with attrition, Offensive for killing armies if I desperately need manpower and forcelimit, or Quality for killing their armies and navies if I'm not in desperate need of manpower/forcelimit, but Quantity is such a great supplementary idea group that it is usually a part of any of my setups that include 3+ milgroups coming in as the 2nd or 3rd group (but always after getting either Quality or Offensive, such that I have at least the basics for winning battles). You just cannot go wrong with the added strategic and logistic flexibility that Quantity provides, and EU4 wars are overwhelmingly won by strategy and logistics, once one is no longer in the initial phase for small countries where every battle matters and the outcome of the war hinges on a few battles.

Heck, I even add it to the setup as Russia, because obviously what Russia is in desperate need of is more manpower and cheaper infantry. (Try it; it is awesome!)

 

[hauptman]

How about Ottomans? They have Ottoman Tolerance, you don't need to convert anyway

So the ottomans never fight a war? they never get war exhaustion? Never need stability? Never Take provinces from other people?

The conversion aspect of religious is only 2 ideas of the line.

 

[TejaAmelung]

Well I play as the Ottomans and I'm doing just fine without religious idea. I've never had any significant war-exhaustion nor problems with stability. I took quite a lot provinces so far and I see no reason why it should've been easier with religious idea.