The most useless and the best idea
- Thread starter TejaAmelung
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If the colonist is of any use then expansion beats diplomatic overall IMO. You get the same reputation and relations bonuses, a better CB (unless playing a republic), and income through the merchant and trade bonuses vs cheaper WE reduction, cheaper peace costs in dip points, and a diplomat. Granted both sets have weaknesses and I usually want both eventually but I tend to favor expansion first unless the colonist is utterly useless.
Well brifbates, Defensive, still beats all. Diplomatic relations etc. are fine, but when it comes to fight defensive NI group is allways going to help you. Alot.
A few questions if you don't mind!
1. What did you mean when you say that you "wait 25 years for knowledge to spread". What knowledge spreads? I know about neighbour tech bonuses but I don't think this is what you mean? Are you saying that TI gets revealed after a period? I don't think I've seen that - certainly I still have loads of white TI up to 1650 which is the farthest I've got so far.
2. So you never miss out by not having any Explorers? I guess this is related to my first question, because if TI is opening up for you some other way then it wouldn't be so important. But I am constantly opening up new TI with an explorer ship or two. The prestige is nice but also I've found it a nice quick way to find new places to colonise. Having to constantly war with nations just to open up their territory sounds really slow? Though I know you're not a slow player so obviously it does work for you!
3. So you don't think Chesapeake is worth going for? That's where I've always gone first with my colonising, and I love all the trade income from dominating it. I get nearly double there than I do in my capital in my current England game. I take all the Indian gold mines too, but I move there from a Manhattan starting point.
Thanks!
Diplmaty > expansion > HRE > papacy > country ideas
You simply need, diplomatic relations!!!
You simply need, diplomatic relations!!!
Maybe sometimes expansion is better when playing semi peacefull and colonizing, but not with the nations and style I normally play and not in the context of constant warring above.
And the thing with the Diplomatic idea is the stuff you need comes on a string of pearls:
+1 Diplomat right off the bat, then -50% time on claiming, less risk of discovering plus more time for your diplomats telling everyone that "no no ill stop at Sudetenland".
Now you have claimed and buttered up the nations, now its time for war and whats the next that come +2 diplomatic relations, perfect timing every time, because at that point in time, you probably already is nearing your limit of relations.
So now you have a war exhausted nation, so what comes now, oh -33% on war exhaustion - I actually use that, because I do as much conquering the first 30 years as I do the next 100 or so (so with near zero manpower I dont want to run around chasing rebels).
CB thing on other governments are seldom of much use to me, but I have a feeling it will be toned back up at a point in time.
Then comes +3 reputation and to withstand the coming coalition its time to make solid allies and now is also the time for annexing of a vassal or two in peace.
Now the big wars are coming, and unjustified demands are perfect after a big coalition battle where you are the defender. And the finisher will save you some stab hits from time to time.
So I dont agree at all about the lurking consensus that Diplomatic idea can be replaced with Expansion in the above case.
You need diplomatic relations, but not all the time, not with all nations. All nations need military, and this is why Defensive is Best. You can live without offensive as naval nations(you cannot force march on ships...), but without defensive, you are going to lose each time you fight european nation(because they basicaly all have defensive at some point). It is like MD in Eu3. It is a must - sooner or later.
Seriously if it was not very wise to chose different idea groups each time (to battle the science time penalty with euro nations). I am close to 100% sure I would never need a single military idea against the AI.
Different categories so not really mutually exclusive. Early on it'd be fairly easy to have Expansion, Diplomacy, AND Defensive. You'd have that ability at Admin Tech 10 with an ideal year of only 1531, and earlier with any bonuses from your ruler, and you could burn some with taking it early.
Agreed, but taking a military idea first is suicide. In the early game you can't afford to be one tech behind anyone in a war so you won't be able to fill any mil idea unless you have a god king. I'd rather take an idea tree I know I'll be able to fill without risk of obliteration. Defensive is almost always my choice at admin 7 when a single land tech isn't quite as unforgiving and tech times have increased enough that you start running ahead of time on mil points with even average kings (or in lesser tech groups).
The knowledge of any province that has been explored will spread over time. First to other nations in the same tech group then to neighbors and co-religionists.
It is entirely possible with high military ruler to be slightly ahead in land tech, and have military NI's unlocked. Also, if you are naval or para-naval(venice, aragon, spanish, england, sweden, ottomans), you still need naval tech, so in case you have low diplo ruler(happens) it might be actualy better idea not to take diplomatic on such scenario. Aspecialy true for aragon(they start with 6 mil ruler... and neither he nor his heir, is good at diplo - thou his heir is good at admin and bad at mil, it may happen that he dies, and you get good mil heir, hence he is quite old...).
Also, we don't discuss which is idea you should take first - this all depends on nation and ruler. Republics have it easier, and if they go with Military ruler for long enough it is not a problem...
It is situational anyway. Point here should be which of the NI group is strongest. And by far, the strongest NI group is defensive. And it get bonus points for making coop bonus when you have offensive. Offensive + Defensive = 100K Doomstack traveling from spain to netherlands and back again defeating enemy armies one after another. And every enemy army which dares to enter france first face attrition, then obliteration.
Seriously, france vauban fortifications + defensive + prestige = 73% fort defense... + any other bonuses, it makes france pretty hard to siege, and very strong on defensive - with full offensive, it makes it impossible to siege down france, before their army will come back to take you out.
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I did mention that having a god king would allow you to take a mil idea first...
Even as a nation with heavy naval requirements I'd rather lag in dip tech than mil. Wars are won/lost on the ground in the vast majority of cases, only nations like a fully formed GB can win wars without using a single soldier. If the opponent can walk to your land without wet feet you need to be up to date on mil tech.
I agreed with you that defensive is the best overall idea group but it's also important to understand that the military NIs, even the best, won't save you if you are behind in tech.
You need the diplomaty idea, or expansion for the relation. in my England game, i use all 12 relation I have at the moment. 4 are HRE elector vassal. 2 are my eastern europe vassal, 2 are my american vassal, 2 are my asian vassal. all of them get feeded and annexed, and replaced with new vassal from the area. when i finish my american vassals, the go to europe vassal spots.
2 slots are for royal marriage target, hopefully for lucky PU of castille or Portugal... but it is a luck gamble.
If you not choosing a dilo or expans idea at the first spot, you get really fast into a situation, were your vassal start eating your monthly diplo points, and you get a standstill in warfare, because you have no points for the peace deals you like.
Only country were i prefeare exploration as first idea is turks, only to get america and africa before castille and portugal can colonial the area. it helps later in game by conquering this area.
2 slots are for royal marriage target, hopefully for lucky PU of castille or Portugal... but it is a luck gamble.
If you not choosing a dilo or expans idea at the first spot, you get really fast into a situation, were your vassal start eating your monthly diplo points, and you get a standstill in warfare, because you have no points for the peace deals you like.
Only country were i prefeare exploration as first idea is turks, only to get america and africa before castille and portugal can colonial the area. it helps later in game by conquering this area.
Yeah, thou there are some nations that may survive being behind in tech. Like poland(with bit of diplo, and lithuania as PU). Well actualy propably only poland XD. And maybe, maybe denmark...
Possibly off-topic, but Irish Republicism is a pretty useless National Idea, given that you can't change to a republic unless you let yourself be overun by Republican rebels...
I take back what I said earlier about innovative being terrible. Having just run it during a game, though it looks terrible the fact that it makes certain events happen so much faster (lvl 3 advisor events, random points events, agricultural revolution) is a fantastic effect and I'll probably take it as my admin idea from now on (now that econ ideas have been nerfed through the floor)
So here are my ratings. However from a single player perspective
ADM Useful:
1 Religious: Except for Deus Vult (since the 1.2 AE adjustment this cb is just not worth a single admin point) and tolerance of heretics (no matter if you convert or not - tolerance of heretics leads to a higher probability of heretics popping up.. Just annoying) every idea here is really good. The big bonus is the 100% better relations over time, a must have if you intend to expand a lot.
2 Economic: Everything here is useful in helping you with your finances.
ADM that I would never pick.
3 Innovative: It's just meh. The reduction in war exhaustion is great if you are at constant war and the reduction in advisor costs really pays off when you are really large. However at that point you can afford lvl 3 advisors anyways. Tech reduction is also not as great as it seems. It would pay off if you get it early. However I don't see a reason to get innovative earlier than your 4th idea group if at all. Overall it's a nice to have, but it doesn't help you to achieve any goals really.
4 Administrative: The reduced merc costs are ok for the early game. In the long term only the production boost is nice if you want to get a silly production income. Overall a legit super-early game choice but I would always prefer Economic, since you can get rid of the unavoidable merc-inflation easier in the long run. So even for a heavy merc play I would prefer economic.
5 Espionage: Fun to play with but in terms of getting a larger empire in single player utterly useless. In Multiplayer however infiltrate administration alone is worth it.
Diplo: Actually all are useful depending on your playstile. If you colonize, its clearly exploration and expansion. However I will rate them in terms of overall usefulness in my opinion
1 Diplomatic: This idea group is picked for, 2 Diplo relations, diplo reputation and the early additional diplomat. Just a must have for everybody playing with vassals or allies,.. or basically everybody.
1 Expansion: As a western/eastern/ottoman faction you get a great cb, 2 diplomatic relations, diplomatic reputation for better integration and a bit of money on top of it. Not always the first idea group to go for, but I can't think of a single game where this wouldn't be useful. Even if you never intend to colonize or go to Asia. Still the 2 diplomatic relations are reason enough to go for this idea group.
3 Trade: It helps your economy, but its not good early game and since endless steering chains are not as useful as pre-1.2 even the merchants are not THAT big of a deal anymore. The one merchant from expansion is usually enough to saturate all "end nodes", even for super large empires. End-game wise it's just not a game changer. So in my opinion this idea group is largely overrated. It just never really helps to progress your game in any state of the game.
4 Naval: Useful for island factions such as England. Otherwise, its hard to think of it being useful. For any non-island faction (Oh wait there is only England..) you just don't even need a navy to win your battles and provinces
Exploration: If you go for colonies its great, if not - its uselss. End of the story.
Military ideas:
1 Offensive: Just amazing. You get manpower, forcelimits, combat boni and forced march that can help you to hunt your enemies quicker.
1 Quantity: Offensive is better rounded than quantity. So why rate it equal? Early on manpower is EXTREMELY important. and you get a 50% boost (instead of 25% for offensive) with your very first idea points spent in it. So instead of waiting and doing nothing for X years since your manpower is too low and you are drowning in debt cause of mercs you can go to war quicker propelling your expansion. However, in my opinion you either get it as one of your first 3 idea groups or you can straight go for offensive, since the later the game, the less significant the benefits of this idea group.
3 Defensive: Solid choice in every way but in terms of expansion the other two are just faster.
4 Plutocratic: Jack of all trades. If you survived the first 50 years this idea group is usually the best to dump your endless military points in. I really like to go for it. However it hardly makes you more powerful.
5 Quality: Well your guys will fight better. Manpower/force limits are still just more important.
6 Aristocratic: If you go for a world conquest the extra diplomat is useful. Otherwise every other idea group is just better.
Summing up: These are the idea groups that I ALWAYS go for in the usual order I take them. The rest is always depending on the game.
1 Diplo (when European) / Expansionist (When I play Eastern/Horde)
2 Religious
3 Diplo / Expansionist
4 Offensive
ADM Useful:
1 Religious: Except for Deus Vult (since the 1.2 AE adjustment this cb is just not worth a single admin point) and tolerance of heretics (no matter if you convert or not - tolerance of heretics leads to a higher probability of heretics popping up.. Just annoying) every idea here is really good. The big bonus is the 100% better relations over time, a must have if you intend to expand a lot.
2 Economic: Everything here is useful in helping you with your finances.
ADM that I would never pick.
3 Innovative: It's just meh. The reduction in war exhaustion is great if you are at constant war and the reduction in advisor costs really pays off when you are really large. However at that point you can afford lvl 3 advisors anyways. Tech reduction is also not as great as it seems. It would pay off if you get it early. However I don't see a reason to get innovative earlier than your 4th idea group if at all. Overall it's a nice to have, but it doesn't help you to achieve any goals really.
4 Administrative: The reduced merc costs are ok for the early game. In the long term only the production boost is nice if you want to get a silly production income. Overall a legit super-early game choice but I would always prefer Economic, since you can get rid of the unavoidable merc-inflation easier in the long run. So even for a heavy merc play I would prefer economic.
5 Espionage: Fun to play with but in terms of getting a larger empire in single player utterly useless. In Multiplayer however infiltrate administration alone is worth it.
Diplo: Actually all are useful depending on your playstile. If you colonize, its clearly exploration and expansion. However I will rate them in terms of overall usefulness in my opinion
1 Diplomatic: This idea group is picked for, 2 Diplo relations, diplo reputation and the early additional diplomat. Just a must have for everybody playing with vassals or allies,.. or basically everybody.
1 Expansion: As a western/eastern/ottoman faction you get a great cb, 2 diplomatic relations, diplomatic reputation for better integration and a bit of money on top of it. Not always the first idea group to go for, but I can't think of a single game where this wouldn't be useful. Even if you never intend to colonize or go to Asia. Still the 2 diplomatic relations are reason enough to go for this idea group.
3 Trade: It helps your economy, but its not good early game and since endless steering chains are not as useful as pre-1.2 even the merchants are not THAT big of a deal anymore. The one merchant from expansion is usually enough to saturate all "end nodes", even for super large empires. End-game wise it's just not a game changer. So in my opinion this idea group is largely overrated. It just never really helps to progress your game in any state of the game.
4 Naval: Useful for island factions such as England. Otherwise, its hard to think of it being useful. For any non-island faction (Oh wait there is only England..) you just don't even need a navy to win your battles and provinces
Exploration: If you go for colonies its great, if not - its uselss. End of the story.
Military ideas:
1 Offensive: Just amazing. You get manpower, forcelimits, combat boni and forced march that can help you to hunt your enemies quicker.
1 Quantity: Offensive is better rounded than quantity. So why rate it equal? Early on manpower is EXTREMELY important. and you get a 50% boost (instead of 25% for offensive) with your very first idea points spent in it. So instead of waiting and doing nothing for X years since your manpower is too low and you are drowning in debt cause of mercs you can go to war quicker propelling your expansion. However, in my opinion you either get it as one of your first 3 idea groups or you can straight go for offensive, since the later the game, the less significant the benefits of this idea group.
3 Defensive: Solid choice in every way but in terms of expansion the other two are just faster.
4 Plutocratic: Jack of all trades. If you survived the first 50 years this idea group is usually the best to dump your endless military points in. I really like to go for it. However it hardly makes you more powerful.
5 Quality: Well your guys will fight better. Manpower/force limits are still just more important.
6 Aristocratic: If you go for a world conquest the extra diplomat is useful. Otherwise every other idea group is just better.
Summing up: These are the idea groups that I ALWAYS go for in the usual order I take them. The rest is always depending on the game.
1 Diplo (when European) / Expansionist (When I play Eastern/Horde)
2 Religious
3 Diplo / Expansionist
4 Offensive
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Uh it is probably the single most powerful lvl1 idea imo. +50% Mercs gives you +6 land forcelimit, which is often between 25% and 100% of your current forcelimit early game. I pick it whenever I can, since Republic's have only war as means to get bigger.
That being said Plutocratic best - Admin worst.
Yeah you are right these forcelimits are a godsend. However I assumed to play a non-(non-noble)-republic since it's been a while.
It might be 50 years, but TI fades on it's own. and only portugal and castile will do any colonizing before it's gone... They cant grab everything before I can see it. Granted I dont get all the choice picks like every carribean island etc... but it's good enough that karankarwa is always a last ai pick (adjacent to aztec).
I miss out on some stuff... But panama can be just as powerful to control 100% as having half of the carribean. The spaniards have kind of a preset colonization order, and they start with the carribean, then spain will head north and portugal south.
I dont think chesepeak, or carribean are worth anything near as much as Ivory, kongo, cape, zanzibar, aden ->
But it's a mute point anyway as it will all end up in Antwerp sooner or later... muwhahahha. So colonize for me my minions, and I shall take one province in all of your trade nodes.
Early game trade just isnt worth squat. I could dominate the carrib and chespeeak, send it all to lubeck and make a 10 ducat profit because i need 100s of ships to keep england/spain from stealing it. Or I could just go for the gold mines that are worth 50 ducats and let them colonize for me, then I can claim whales, britany, and north africa later, when trade $$ is HUGE $$. then spam light ships and bleed everyone dry.
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That was a Brandenburg game, with little focus on trade. The goldmines bought me the military to dominate the HRE. as you can see I was collecting in Panama, and steering from mexico (otherwise Japan and shun would have stole it) Pretty much the entire game with my 2 merchants. In this shot I am still working on filling the trade idea set so only have 1 merch from that, the other was from sunda which got plopped in venice, then the first merch from trade went to bordeaux to keep england from routing too much through his node.
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