The Moscow Kessel

[mvsnconsolegene]

Hello,

I haven't worked up the nerve to try Germany yet. I'm fiddling around with Italy, Canada, United Kingdom, etc.

Anyways, one game as Italy I looked up and noticed Germany had encircled Moscow in Winter 1941.

Anyways, assuming the war was over I went back to playing Italy and by 1944 Germany had invaded Persia and was halfway to the Pacfic when I noticed Moscow was still encircled. With supplies. And approximately 24 divisions...

:rofl:

That is one hell of a long-lasting Kessel. Has anybody else run into this problem? How was Moscow supplying itself? It was no longer the capital either.

- MVSN

 

[unmerged(133545)]

Hmm, interesting, there's always a way I suppose, the Battle of Stalingrad went on for a long time too.

 

[Khalep]

Could be by means of air transports, have you noticed any? The AI has been seen using them, though I don't quite understand why a beleaguered Soviet Union would go through the trouble of building any at all. Perhaps it foresaw this siege.

 

[quaazi]

Well, it's a capital with a great deal of resources and IC if the soviets don't move it... look at Porkman's Chinese AAR, there Moscow held out against both China and Germany with ease, until he had to resort to exploiting the AI (sorry but it was that )

 

[x260bm]

The province has everything it needs to produce supplies. It is no longer possible to starve a country just by surrounding its capital and separating it from the rest of the country.

 

[unmerged(42723)]

I find this a bit strange. Like holding Stalingrad for years with no effect on the encircled 6th army...Leningrad lasted long, but with horrible conditions for those in the city. While I like the idea that encircled provinces still have some supplies, a long term siege should take its toll.

 

[Amallric]

You can't simulate every single situation. The new system is incredibly better as it allows an accurate simulation of large cut-off areas that have enough industry to supply an army, and fixes the old capital encircling exploit once and for all. The only situation when it's a bit unrealistic is when it comes to sieges laid down around heavily industrialised areas that were not self-sufficient in terms of food production such as Stalingrad or Leningrad. But that's what, 1% of all provinces on the map?

 

[deadmeat1471]

I find this a bit strange. Like holding Stalingrad for years with no effect on the encircled 6th army...Leningrad lasted long, but with horrible conditions for those in the city. While I like the idea that encircled provinces still have some supplies, a long term siege should take its toll.

It does? they run low/out of supplies and erm.. have none.

 

[Amallric]

No they produce supplies.

 

[Alex_brunius]

The only situation when it's a bit unrealistic is when it comes to sieges laid down around heavily industrialised areas that were not self-sufficient in terms of food production such as Stalingrad or Leningrad. But that's what, 1% of all provinces on the map?

But they are not self sufficient in AoD Either.

Stalingrad produce no metal or rares (and neither does any surronding provinces). So a Stalingrad pocket cannot produce a single unit off supply by their own.

Leningrad produce only 3.0 energy and can thus only supply 1.5 IC worth of supply production as maximum, this might be enough for perhaps 5-10 divisions, but not any larger forces.

I think this part of the game works perfectly.

 

[Cally]

I've seen this too. I was playing as Argentina and Germany pulled off a successful Barbarossa. Taking Baku, Stalingrad, Leningrad, Sverdlovsk... but not Moscow. They encircled Moscow and just went around it.

After a long time had passed they did finally take Moscow and the Bitter Peace fired.

 

[dragon1990]

Yep, I love the new system. It is really possible to create long standing areas now. Ive even seen a British stand at Gibraltar. Took em 120 Spanish and German divisions to kick out 35 of the commonwealth troops.

 

[HisMajestyBOB]

In these cases, the AI should use its bombers to reduce the factories in the province to rubble. This should stop supplies from being created for those units, allowing them to starve properly. It shouldn't be hard to gain air superiority over one surrounded province.

 

[unmerged(45180)]

The only situation when it's a bit unrealistic is when it comes to sieges laid down around heavily industrialised areas that were not self-sufficient in terms of food production such as Stalingrad or Leningrad. But that's what, 1% of all provinces on the map?

True, but those 1% of provinces are very important in game terms, especially Moscow. I hereby suggest a fix for this: Remove some resource from Moscow (like energy or metal, can't check here) and add that amount to some neighbouring province like Rybinsk.

That way the total number of resources for the soviets stays the same, but it would make it impossible for Moscow to be self sufficient alone. This would force soviets to keep multiple provinces to be sufficient, thus making it easier for the AI to destroy the pocket in reasonable time.

 

[Amallric]

But do you guys think that the game really checks if the factories in a pocket have enough ressources IN THE POCKET? We need confirmation from the Devs here, I'd say the game just checks the amount of IC in the encircled prov and puts a fraction of the overall produced supplies here...don't really know haw that works. If you have let's say 30% of your overall IC spent on supplies, will you produce for 4 IC worth of supplies in encircled Moscow or more?

 

[deadmeat1471]

No they produce supplies.

Yes, the industry/resources do. Inside the encirclement. such things happened often.

 

[Lennartos]

But do you guys think that the game really checks if the factories in a pocket have enough ressources IN THE POCKET? We need confirmation from the Devs here, I'd say the game just checks the amount of IC in the encircled prov and puts a fraction of the overall produced supplies here...don't really know haw that works. If you have let's say 30% of your overall IC spent on supplies, will you produce for 4 IC worth of supplies in encircled Moscow or more?

Confirmed