The Monthly Challenge
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You just have to annex Ming, not actually get every Chinese province.
It's looking like this will be a fairly succesful run for me. I've managed to defect the 2 spanish provinces to Ming and get peace with Spain. They won't be cores though, but judging from the points criteria, that's not needed. For the record, chinese cores should have some bonus like the japanese and korean ones, if not more.
As for national ideas, I swapped espionage for colonial ventures off the bat so that I could get Visayas to 1k pop asap as well as instant culture and religion. It also brings with it a few helpful core missions (Taiwan and Deren at least). In the initial war with Ming I was helped by a core event that gave me a CB on Mongol Khanate. After recovering manpower, I switched to Unam Sanctam so that I could finish off Ming by DOWing all its vassals (Shan, Tonkin, Mongol Khanate, Lan Xang).
I pretty much haven't been teching at all. All my sliders have been set to stability and minting, as I have been pretty much at war or recovering from war non-stop. I was fully westernized in 1662, which made me realise that any teching prior to that didn't really matter anyway.
I'll try to make a more structured resumé of what I've done so far, so people can get an idea of how it can be done.
As for national ideas, I swapped espionage for colonial ventures off the bat so that I could get Visayas to 1k pop asap as well as instant culture and religion. It also brings with it a few helpful core missions (Taiwan and Deren at least). In the initial war with Ming I was helped by a core event that gave me a CB on Mongol Khanate. After recovering manpower, I switched to Unam Sanctam so that I could finish off Ming by DOWing all its vassals (Shan, Tonkin, Mongol Khanate, Lan Xang).
I pretty much haven't been teching at all. All my sliders have been set to stability and minting, as I have been pretty much at war or recovering from war non-stop. I was fully westernized in 1662, which made me realise that any teching prior to that didn't really matter anyway.
I'll try to make a more structured resumé of what I've done so far, so people can get an idea of how it can be done.
Pardon me for taking it literally
. Here it is anyway:
That's at 1671. My BB is currently at 39.99/40, so I'll have to wait a bit before annexing Ming. And as a sidenote: everything you see as being Manchu on that map will be a core by 1718 except Jiangmen and Hainan.
Then, it's not like I could come up with a challenge which would be hard enough. No matter the country, once you get past a certain point, it doesn't matter how difficult it was at first - it no longer will be.
Just because it can be done doesn't mean it can be done every time... sometimes the game throws you a curve, sometimes it throws you a bone.
It's been fun playing out 'what if' I did this and 'what if' I do that. And everyone's scores won't be exactly the same. (go ahead EUIII gods, make a liar out of me...)
I thought this was a little friendly competition, not a case of stump the player. The challenge is difficult enough. You addressed the biggest issue by making the rule you can play someone's save, but the one you submit for score has to be your own game, start to finish.
Maybe creating a second scoring area for 'so and so took yada yada's save and did this with it' might not be a bad idea, but the main challenge is to do it yer dang self, no matter how miserably you fail.
Fear not, Sir Beamed. I believe you have done very well. If not too well... I have yet to see the Spanish province appear before Ming decides he's hungry...
Though should I make it that far, Changing Government and Korea's early capture nets 33 FL and 28K MP... More if I swap NI's again and take the FL NI. Should be more than enough men for the job at hand.
So... What kind of bait do you use to lure a Spanish Colony out into the open?
If I can't get it to come out of it's TI closet, I may yet fulfill my tenth place prophecy after all.
T
It's been fun playing out 'what if' I did this and 'what if' I do that. And everyone's scores won't be exactly the same. (go ahead EUIII gods, make a liar out of me...)
I thought this was a little friendly competition, not a case of stump the player. The challenge is difficult enough. You addressed the biggest issue by making the rule you can play someone's save, but the one you submit for score has to be your own game, start to finish.
Maybe creating a second scoring area for 'so and so took yada yada's save and did this with it' might not be a bad idea, but the main challenge is to do it yer dang self, no matter how miserably you fail.
Fear not, Sir Beamed. I believe you have done very well. If not too well... I have yet to see the Spanish province appear before Ming decides he's hungry...
Though should I make it that far, Changing Government and Korea's early capture nets 33 FL and 28K MP... More if I swap NI's again and take the FL NI. Should be more than enough men for the job at hand.
So... What kind of bait do you use to lure a Spanish Colony out into the open?
If I can't get it to come out of it's TI closet, I may yet fulfill my tenth place prophecy after all.
T
That's why I started it. I already knew that there was little that would make this game difficult.
You put a transport next to it with a group of cavalry (I've used 4000 so that I don't get any problems with the natives). DoWing Spain will make it possible for you to enter the terra incognita. If you're lucky, you'll have secured the colony in time to save your boats.
Now that's the kind of sneaky b*****d stuff I really like.
Now, I just have to build some dang boats...Thanks for that.
T
I've tried a couple of different tactics. The first one didn't work too well, even if in the long term I would have easily been able to annex Ming (just not within the 100 years). I managed to conquer South-East Asia, which would have given me a two-front war with Ming, and I know the AI isn't very good at dealing with two front wars. The problem was my stability costs skyrocketed and I wasn't able to westernise before the first war with Ming.
In the second go I went straight after Korea for cores and to increase my naval forcelimits. That added with the 50% ship cost NI allowed me to build a really big navy. I then used this navy to cleverly blockade Japan to trap its huge forces on the various islands. I then took the mainland.
By concentrating on point-heavy and rich provinces, I was able to westernise really quickly. I then built a huge army of reformed Samurai cavalry which I used to pummel Ming. It was still close, I was out of manpower when Ming started retreating from the front line to deal with rebellions (we both had WE of over 15, however Ming had taken a few wrong culture provinces from Mongols and South-East Asia) which allowed me to grab a few provinces just before the 50 year mark.
So Korea and most of Japan will core for me, however I don't think I'm doing as well as Beige Volvo.
In the second go I went straight after Korea for cores and to increase my naval forcelimits. That added with the 50% ship cost NI allowed me to build a really big navy. I then used this navy to cleverly blockade Japan to trap its huge forces on the various islands. I then took the mainland.
By concentrating on point-heavy and rich provinces, I was able to westernise really quickly. I then built a huge army of reformed Samurai cavalry which I used to pummel Ming. It was still close, I was out of manpower when Ming started retreating from the front line to deal with rebellions (we both had WE of over 15, however Ming had taken a few wrong culture provinces from Mongols and South-East Asia) which allowed me to grab a few provinces just before the 50 year mark.
So Korea and most of Japan will core for me, however I don't think I'm doing as well as Beige Volvo.
I seem to have remembered wrong from the initial challenge. Somehow I had added an extra year into the mix. Guess it's back to the drawing board for now.
BeigeVolvo, I have no idea how you manage to capture and hold Visayas. I can take it sure, but then I have the full wrath of the Spanish (and often Portugese) empire on me. I managed to hold onto it once, but I had to give up one of my Korean provinces. I guess that's the key? The thing is, when I got there, its population is only about 500 or so and so would take several years and a lot of money to bring to city status. By then I'd be within touching distance of westernisation anyway.
I think I'm going to carry on with my save where I just waited for westernisation before attacking Ming, I'm just so curious about this Visayas strategy since I can't replicate it.
I think I'm going to carry on with my save where I just waited for westernisation before attacking Ming, I'm just so curious about this Visayas strategy since I can't replicate it.
Day 1:
- Drop Espionage for Colonial Ventures
- Get allies, preferably someone like Taungu or Ayutthaya (this doesn't need to be done on day 1, as you usually get alliance offers at some point).
- Start making 2 cogs in Haixi. You want 3 cogs, but the 3rd one you can start later at Wusili if you want.
- The rest of the money is your choice, if you want to gamble with sending merchants to Jiangsu, that can be helpful later on. Making one or two cavalry before your WE goes through the roof can be helpful though.
- DoW Korea.
- I went with half mint and half stab, but it all depends on what happens later and what advisors you get.
- Don't touch the sliders. You don't want rebels popping straight away.
Conquering all of Korea should be fairly straightforward. Usually their stack gets run over pretty quickly by your über general. I've even managed to squeeze out 25 ducats from them. If you get the create a navy mission, remember to not make peace until you've made all your cogs, 5 extra prestige doesn't hurt
.I think I was in the clear with Korea and rebels etc around the end of 1619. By that time you should have almost 3 colonists, which is at least what you need to push Visayas to 1000 unless there have been native uprisings (Spain does tend to cut the colony budget though). I loaded my transports with 4000 cavalry and sent them to the sea square next to Visayas as soon as I felt it was safe to do so (pirates can be a pain sometimes).
When DoWing Spain, the important thing is to have a sacrificial lamb. Sure, you can cede something like a Korean province, but that would make them your neighbour and before you know it they would be warning you or just getting in your face in general. For some reason, they are willing to accept peace easier if they have captured an east asian trade port. This is why having Ayutthaya or Taungu as allies is useful. Also, they have some provinces without forts, which is always nice. Japan is a useful ally for keeping the enemy off your shores, but they are usually too strong to be of much use. Alternatively, you can postpone the attack on Spain a little and get a vassal in indochina. This makes you lose all your initial allies however, but it might be a safer way of making sure you have something to sacrifice (if they don't capture any of their provinces you can opt to cancel a vassal).
I've never managed to make peace while Visayas is a colony, so pushing that to 1000 is first priority. If Spain aren't cutting their colony supply budget, you can wait with seizing it and save some money, but I've usually just seized it straight away.
Apart from that, you just have to cross your fingers that someone manages to grab a province somewhere. In my game Austria got Pegu.
Westernizing is also not a miracle cure. Even with Militia act, you have to wait a long time to get the sliders and the samurai cavalry aren't that great. With my strategy, I attacked Ming in the mid-20s and gained 4 cores (uniting the Manchu tribes ftw). Neighbouring a european power like Spain is also not the best thing for your later game. I've currently rolled back my game to the 1660s and had to use a 72,000 stack with a +2 terrain advantage to get rid of the big spanish stack of doom, and then carefully orchestrating the defection of their two chinese provinces to Ming, while in the meantime finishing my westernization.
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I've managed to improve my midgame quite considerably. The way it's looking now I'll have cores on all of the east asian culture group provinces except Owari. Previously I overexpanded into Indochina and Mongolia, which doesn't really give that much tax revenue, and as such isn't necessary to have cores on.
I've also decided to get National Trade Policy as my 4th NI (importation act being a bonus) instead of colonial ventures. Expanding too far west got me into a lot of trouble with the Russians, and even though colonizing is fun it's incredibly expensive.
The aim is to get 30 production tech by the end, which should be doable. I just have to be more careful with inflation and not grab any more noncore provinces for a while.
I've also decided to get National Trade Policy as my 4th NI (importation act being a bonus) instead of colonial ventures. Expanding too far west got me into a lot of trouble with the Russians, and even though colonizing is fun it's incredibly expensive.
The aim is to get 30 production tech by the end, which should be doable. I just have to be more careful with inflation and not grab any more noncore provinces for a while.
And all of this is hinging upon getting the tercio's from the spainish colony... Yes?
I have had no luck with this strategy, for what ever reason my sieges take forever. This delays the Korean outcome till 22 or 23, by which time Spanish Galleons are roaming in numbers.
What's really funny is I can see the Island of Madeira, on the other side of the world off the Portuguese coast, but not the islands in my own back yard that I sail past 100 times during the game.
"My God, what are those?"
"I don't know captain... They look strangely like Land, but they're all white...!"
"It must be very cold on that land looking thingy... Out here in the Tropics..."
"Maybe Angels live there..."
"Or the people that invented bleach..."
"Or toilet paper..."
"Maybe it's made of marsh-mellow...!
"Really...?"
"Why not...? Have you ever seen anything like them...?"
"You know what... We could shoot cannon at them..."
"Why in God's green Earth would we do that...?"
"Well, if it's made of marsh-mellow, it would catch fire and we could toast it..."
"Right...! Brilliant...! We still got all that cocoa and graham in the hold...?
My last attempt I had Korea and 4 Japan provinces that would core, but tech was gone and no hope of westernizing even one step let alone 3.
Ming warned me around 1630, so I got stuck for a bit as I wasn't ready to take him on. As soon as the warning was off I DoW'd the vassal Island of Japan so I could get her to myself. There was no chance of getting Spanish anything. They had inherited Portugal before 1630, and had DoW'd Japan... They made peace so they were weak. When I declared war Spain had over 50K just sitting in one Japanese Province waiting for the boat(s). (which oddly, never came...) The WE from Attrition must have been HUGE.
A successful campaign in Japan netted me the COT and the gold province. It was a wash to let them stay Shinto vs. converting. Why does Confusion-ism suck so much?
So now I have near 70K on the ground with 3 COTs, inflation is only 17 (!!!)... Ming is really spread out having sucked up vassals, and is carrying 140K. I've been waiting ever so patiently for her to go to war, in the hopes I can catch her down a few men and rebel ready, but she's been content to sit and wait around.
I think the window has passed to take her out. She's so frigging big now, and without any unrest or other enemies I'm going to have to be the aggressor. I can beat her, but it will be long, drawn out and bloody. Something my 28K manpower will have a hard time with compared to her 140K plus.
Methinks it's time to start again, but I'll play it out to see what happens. At the worst I get my arse kicked, at the best I get to take a few provinces and maybe get her to release a few nations.
I think I'm trapping myself in building up for the long haul instead of focusing on the fact it's just 100 years. Old habits die hard...
T
Yes, very much so. Regular tercios at first, and then reformed tercios once the Spanish get the tech. I tried to keep making tercios non-stop for the 50 years it took it to become a core for me, at which point I couldn't make them anymore. The tercios have one important attribute that asian units don't have, they can take a beating and still not lose all their morale.
It's not easy to make it work, and everything has to be completely streamlined in order to succeed as quickly as I did.
Hmm, thanks for the tip! I'll try Taungu/vassal betrayal!
However I found westernisation was a miracle cure. Samurai cavalry isn't all that but a couple of levels later you get reformed steppe cavalry, which is all that. I took Ming down with 40k of them, since they can hold off twice their number in a battle with a semi-decent (~30% tradition?) general.
Taking Ming down isn't the problem for me, but I know I'm leaving it too late!
I've got a tip too. Don't bother changing religion. I switched to Shinto and it KILLED my income completely. I went from about 60 ducats census each year to 8. And thanks to westernisation, you make hardly any missionaries even with divine superiority and the 'denounce neo-confucionism' decision, wasting slider moves which could be used elsewhere going narrowminded and countering the 2 decentralisation you get for converting.
However I found westernisation was a miracle cure. Samurai cavalry isn't all that but a couple of levels later you get reformed steppe cavalry, which is all that. I took Ming down with 40k of them, since they can hold off twice their number in a battle with a semi-decent (~30% tradition?) general.
Taking Ming down isn't the problem for me, but I know I'm leaving it too late!
I've got a tip too. Don't bother changing religion. I switched to Shinto and it KILLED my income completely. I went from about 60 ducats census each year to 8. And thanks to westernisation, you make hardly any missionaries even with divine superiority and the 'denounce neo-confucionism' decision, wasting slider moves which could be used elsewhere going narrowminded and countering the 2 decentralisation you get for converting.