The Monothelite Patriarch should be the Maronite Patriarch

[Metanetwork]

It seems that the Monothelites represented in the game are identical with the church known as Maronite.

Last time I checked, CK2 creates a fictional Monothelite patriarch at game start (correct me if that's no longer the case). I suggest that the game takes the list of historical Maronite patriarchs and add them to the title history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Maronite_Patriarchs_of_Antioch

Adding historical patriarchs to the game history (starting with John Maron) would be a step to make the Monothelite heresy more fleshed out. The religious head title could also be renamed "Maronite Patriarch(ate) of Antioch" in the localization.

The religion could keep the name Monothelite because that's what they used to be called by other christians in that time period.

Edit: I did the research and made a list of all medieval Maronite patriarchs, even those past the last start date just in case. You might find the result of my research (and my main sources) in the spoiler below. Since the available information might not always be enough to script the character in-game, I made sure to suggest fictional information where appropriate (all suggested cultures are based on their name). I also wrote some of the accomplishments these patriarchs had.

Spoiler

1. John Maron (Youhanna Maroun) El-Sroumi
 b. 628, d. 707
 ruled 685-707 (buried in Kfarhay)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

2. Qorush (Cyrrhus)
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 653-735)
 ruled 707-?? (suggested: 707-735)
 Maternal nephew of John Maron
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

3. Gabriel (Gebrael) I
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 704-787)
 ruled ??-787 (suggested: 735-787)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

4. John Maron (Youhanna Maroun) II
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 730-807)
 ruled 787-807
 There is conflicting information on John Maron II since one source says he was alive in 938 instead (see below). The source I used says that he ruled in 787-807, however.
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

5. John (Youhanna) of Demalsa
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 766-819)
 ruled 807-?? (suggested: 807-819)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

6. Gregorius I
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 778-831)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 819-831)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

7. Stephanos I
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 794-853)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 831-853)
 Suggested culture: Greek

8. Marc (Marcus) of Antioch
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 815-872)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 853-872)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

9. Eusebius (Hoaushab)
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 831-890)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 872-890)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

10. John (Youhanna) II of Homs
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 859-943)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 890-943)
 Was patriarch during the Council of Constantinople in 896
 The seat of the Maronite patriarch was moved to Byblos in 938. One source attributes this to John Maron II, but the chronology doesn't fit. So this could be attributed to John II instead.
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

11. Joshua (Yeshua)
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 902-960)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 943-960)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

12. David (Daoud) I
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 931-976)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 960-976)
 Suggested culture: Levantine

13. Gregorius II
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 933-994)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 976-994)
 Suggested culture: Levantine

14. Theophylactos or Habib
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 940-1011)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 994-1011)
 Suggested culture: Greek or Levantine

15. Joshua (Yeshua) II of Damascus
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 947-1019)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1011-1019)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

16. Domitius (Dumit) of Beirut
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 956-1024)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1019-1024)
 Suggested culture: Levantine

17. Isaac (Iss'hac)
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 972-1038)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1024-1038)
 Suggested culture: Levantine

18. John III of Aqtanit
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 989-1051)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1038-1051)
 Suggested culture: ??

19. Simeon (Semaan) of Arjess or Chamoun I
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 998-1063)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1051-1063)
 Suggested culture: Greek

20. Jeremiah (Ermea)
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 1010-1072)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1063-1072)
 Suggested culture: ??

21. John (Youhanna) IV
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 1022-1085)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1072-1085)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

22. Chamoun II
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 1038-1097)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1085-1097)
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

23. Chamoun III
 b. and d. unknown (suggested: 1061-1110)
 ruling years unknown (suggested: 1097-1110)
 Some lists consider him the same as Chamoun II.
 First contact with the Crusaders c. 1098
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

24. Joseph (Youssef) El-Gergess (or El-Gerjesse)
 b. unknown (suggested: <1066 so he can exist at the 1066 start date)
 ruled 1110-1120 according to some sources, but other sources claim he was recognized as patriarch by Pope Paschal II in 1100
 Suggested culture: Levantine

25. Peter (Boutros) of Byblos
 b. unknown
 ruled 1120-1130
 First Maronite patriarch known to the catholic church, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia
 Suggested culture: Levantine

26. Gregorius III of Halat
 b. unknown
 ruled 1130-1141
 Suggested culture: Levantine

27. Jacob (Yacoub) of Ramate
 b. unknown
 ruled 1141-1151
 Suggested culture: Levantine

28. John (Youhanna) V of Lehfed
 b. unknown
 ruled 1151-1154
 Suggested culture: Levantine

29. Peter (Boutros) II
 b. unknown
 ruled 1154-1173
 Suggested culture: Levantine

30. Peter (Boutros) III of Lehfed
 b. unknown
 ruled 1173-1189
 Began to discuss reunion with the Catholic Church in 1182, but this was not achieved until 1584.
 Suggested culture: Levantine

31. Peter (Boutros) IV
 b. unknown
 ruled 1189-1199
 Some lists consider him the same as Peter III
 Suggested culture: Levantine

32. Jeremiah (Ermea) II of Amshit (Al-Ahmshîti)
 b. unknown
 ruled 1199-1230
 Participated at the Council of Latran in 1215 and stayed in Rome for 5 years. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "he is known to have taken home with him some projects of liturgical reform".
 He supposedly performed a miracle while at Rome, so he could have the Mystic trait.
 Suggested culture: ??

33. Daniel of Shamat
 b. unknown
 ruled 1230-1239
 Suggested culture: ??

34. John (Youhanna) VI of Jaj
 b. unknown
 ruled 1239-1245
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

35. Chamoun IV (or Semaan) of Blaouza (of Kobayat according to other sources)
 b. unknown
 ruled 1245-1277
 Suggested culture: Greek

36. Jacob (Yacoub) II of Akoura
 b. unknown
 ruled 1277-1278
 Suggested culture: Levantine

37. Daniel II of Hadshit
 b. unknown
 ruled 1278-1281
 Killed by Mamluks in 1281
 Suggested culture: ??

38. Luca El-Bnehraney
 b. and d. unknown
 "ruled" 1281-1283
 Challenger to Ermea, so possibly an anti-patriarch. Omitted in some lists.
 Suggested culture: ??

39. Jeremiah El Damalsy (Ermea) III (1283-1297 AD)
 b. unknown
 ruled 1283-1297
 Challenger to Luca from 1282-1283, but present on all lists.
 Suggested culture:

40. Chamoun (Siméon) V of Blaouza
 b. unknown
 ruled 1297-1339
 Suggested culture: Levantine?

41. John VII of Akoura
 b. unknown
 ruled 1339-1357
 Suggested culture: ??

42. Gabriel (Gebrayel) II of Hjoula
 b. unknown, d. april 1367
 ruled 1357-1367
 Burnt on a pyre by Mamluks in April 1367
 Suggested culture: ??

43. David (Daoud) II or John
 b. unknown (suggested: <1337, so he can be present in the latest start date)
 ruled 1367-1404
 Suggested culture: ??

44. John (Youhanna) VIII of Jaj
 b. unknown
 ruled 1404-1445
 Invited to the Council of Florence but sent a delegate named Fra Juan.
 Suggested culture: Assyrian

45. Jacob (Yacoub) III of Hadeth
 b. unknown
 ruled 1445-1468
 Suggested culture: Levantine

46. Joseph II of Hadeth
 b. unknown
 ruled 1468-1492
 Suggested culture: ??

47. Simeon (Semaan) VI of Hadeth
 b. unknown
 ruled 1494-1524
 Suggested culture: Greek

Sources used:
http://www.puresoftwarecode.com/christians.htm [archive]
http://www.maronite-heritage.com/Maronite Patriarchs.php [archive]
http://newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm (Catholic Encyclopedia) [archive]

 

[JSparks101]

Maronites are Catholics. Monothelites are Oriental Orthodox. Different Churches afaik.

 

[Thure]

Maronites are Catholics. Monothelites are Oriental Orthodox. Different Churches afaik.

It's complicated. The Maronites were only catholicses after the crusades. Around 1182 they became part of the Catholic Church. Prior to that they were closer to the Orthodox Church I think

 

[JSparks101]

It's complicated. The Maronites were only catholicses after the crusades. Around 1182 they became part of the Catholic Church. Prior to that they were closer to the Orthodox Church I think

"Maronites were able to maintain an independent status in Mount Lebanon and its coastline after the Muslim conquest of the Levant, keeping their Christian religion, and even the distinctive Aramaic language as late as the 19th century."

Suggests straight through maybe?

It also seems that whilst they have many traditions like other Oriental Churches, they are in full communion with the Catholics and supported the Council of Chalcedon, rather than opposing like most Oriental Churches.

 

[Metanetwork]

Maronites are Catholics. Monothelites are Oriental Orthodox. Different Churches afaik.

Maronites are eastern catholics. This means they are in full communion with Rome but have their own liturgy. They lost contact with Rome for a couple centuries and began to have ties with it after the First Crusade, but were still called monothelites around the 16th century: http://thebananarepublican.blogspot.ca/2010/08/maronites-were-not-always-catholic.html

They should not be confused with Oriential Orthodoxs, who were called monophysites (but identified as miaphysite). Monothelites/Maronites had good standings with the catholics but not with the orthodoxs, so that fits an orthodox heresy. Furthermore, Maronites accepted the Council of Chalcedon which was rejected by Oriental Orthodoxs.

 

[Metanetwork]

In summary, Christianity can be more or less divided into five major Churches. These groups are much broader than the CK2 religions. I made a list of how the CK2 religion map to the five groups:

Catholic Church
-Latin catholics (Latin rite):

-Catholic religion
-Fraticelli heresy​

-Eastern catholics (23 autonomous churches that progressively joined the catholic church from the 16th century onwards):

-Maronite church (West Syriac rite): in-game Monothelites
-14 Greek churches (Byzantine rite): formely members of the Eastern Orthodox church
-6 Oriental churches (Alexandrian, Armenian, or West Syriac rite depending on the church): formely members of the Oriental Orthodox Church
-2 Assyrian churches (East Syriac rite): formely members of the Church of the East​

Eastern Orthodox Church (Byzantine rite)
-Orthodox religion
-Iconoclast heresy

Oriental Orthodox Church (Alexandrian, Armenian, or West Syriac rite depending on patriarch)
-Miaphysite religion
-Monophysite heresy

Church of the East (East Syriac rite)
-Nestorian religion

The fifth "Church" is the protestant churches, but protestants might not consider themselves part of an universal "Protestant Church". The only two protestant religions in CK2 are Lollards and Waldensians.


My suggestion is to use the historical Maronite patriarchs of Antioch for the title history of the Monothelite patriarch of Antioch. I think this would increase players' curiosity for this heresy. Maybe the patriarch could be someone else's vassal in some start dates if appropriate (I haven't checked if that's actually the case). If there is interest, I could offer to research the birth and death date of each successive patriarch and the year where they entered office.

 

[Snow Crystal]

I wouldn't say this is a subject I am very well versed in, but I can give my own thoughts on it, if nothing else. This is NOT in any way, shape or form indicative of any changes we are making though, just so nobody get the wrong idea here.

I think it would be a somewhat unwise choice to simply rename the Patriarch. That seems to imply that the religion is Maronite, even though we are still calling it Monothelite. The two are not synonymous, after all. The Maronites was called Monothelite, but that change the fact there were Monothelites who weren't Maronite.

A better solution would probably be to rename, and somewhat reshape, the Monothelites into a Maronite religion properly, and turn them into a "Catholic friendly" Orthodox heresy. Then you could go a bit more all out in the Maronite route, as well as make them stand out from the rest of the Orthodox heresies.

 

[Metanetwork]

I think it would be a somewhat unwise choice to simply rename the Patriarch. That seems to imply that the religion is Maronite, even though we are still calling it Monothelite. The two are not synonymous, after all. The Maronites was called Monothelite, but that change the fact there were Monothelites who weren't Maronite.

A better solution would probably be to rename, and somewhat reshape, the Monothelites into a Maronite religion properly, and turn them into a "Catholic friendly" Orthodox heresy. Then you could go a bit more all out in the Maronite route, as well as make them stand out from the rest of the Orthodox heresies.

The Maronites are the successors to the Monothelites, but they didn't join the catholic church yet during the middle age. I think the game mechanics are appropriate for CK2 (e.g. catholics don't attack orthodox heresies). On second thought, changing the name of the patriarch might not be a good idea.

However, there is a possibility to give an historical title history to the Monothelite patriarchate since these patriarchs were merely the predecessors to the Maronite patriarchs (from before joining the catholic church). I will attempt to make a list in the next few days.

 

[andrefortes]

Maronites are not successors to the Monothelites. These two groups co-existed, and the Monothelites were declared as heretical by the Third Council of Constantinople. Several churches were accused of following this heresy, amongst these Oriental Orthodoxy and the Maronites, both which distanced themselves away from the heresy.

In fact, the Maronites outright rejected any association with Monothelitism. Claiming they are the same thing is like saying that Orthodox Christianity is the same as Miaphysitism.

 

[Metanetwork]

I completed my research and added it to the main post.

Maronites are not successors to the Monothelites. These two groups co-existed, and the Monothelites were declared as heretical by the Third Council of Constantinople. Several churches were accused of following this heresy, amongst these Oriental Orthodoxy and the Maronites, both which distanced themselves away from the heresy.

The perpetual orthodoxy of the Maronites is a matter of contention according to the many sources I consulted (the article from the blog thebananarepublican was taken down, I should have thought about archiving it). The Maronite entry in the Catholic Encyclopedia cites many commentators who attributed monothelitism to the Maronites: http://newadvent.org/cathen/09683c.htm

Do you have a source that says the two groups coexisted (as distinct entities)? The Third Council of Constantinople was in 681 and the first Maronite patriarch was elected in 685.

Monothelism was devised by Chalcedonians in an attempt to reunite with the Oriental Orthodox church (who were miaphysite), so it would make little sense to accuse Oriental Orthodoxs of monothelism, but I concede that some medieval authors might have made that mistake.

In fact, the Maronites outright rejected any association with Monothelitism.

It's more complicated. They claim that they actually adhered to miathelitism (ie. "the human and divine wills of Christ will one thing"), and were therefore be unaffected by the denounciation of monothelitism at the Third Council of Constantinople. However, Eastern Orthodox commentators made no distinction between the two (catholic commentators did).

In the 16th century, when Maronites officially became an eastern catholic church, they were required to adopt mainstream catholic theology, implying there were still theological differences up to this point.

Claiming they are the same thing is like saying that Orthodox Christianity is the same as Miaphysitism.

Nitpick: there are two churches with "Orthodox" in the name. The Oriental Orthodox church is the same as Miaphysitism.