The Mongol Threat to China

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Captain Krunch
I have seen nations that have their capital provinces as a trading post actually.

During my World Conquest for Dummies AAR, I saw China revolt as a L1 TP in Taiwan. Since they had a historical leader, he was created in... Rome. (Go figure). They were annexed with the first diplomat sent since they didn't have any provinces

I have also seen it since, but I have only seen it when a TP was a core of a revolter.

The morale is this, don't fuck around with TP-nations unless you want everybody to be capable of annexing them by using any spare diplomat on hand!

And Sun_Zi, I hear you regarding the Mongolian Rebel Events. Now I am sure you understand why I didn't agree when you and others were talking about 40% being outrageously high.

To be a challenge, either something like 60% primary and 40% secondary is needed, or an overall RR of some 15% rather than a mere 11% or 6%.

One thing you seem not to have considered in your 1419 start with a smaller China tests, is that just about all your provinces are state-religion and state-cultured, leading to a minimal revolt risk in the non-primary and non-secondary provinces. This will not be the case when you have 80+ provinces - some with wrong religion, some with wrong culture, and some with both. And some, likely, suffering from nationalism.

Anyway, discard them or use them as you see fit. I had fun writing them, and that is what I consider most important. Still, I don't really see where you can insert a Mongol nation without some outrageous event-fiddling that will make your province-swapping for Nerchiinsk seem like a child's play. (And we've also had the first bug reports about the strange 1700 start-date vassalisations )

Adding many hundreds of events, that are not random, does tend to slow down EU2 on low-end machines, and should thus be judiciously considered. (Random events are a special case, since they are treated differently with regards to testing for occurrence)

Ps:Merry Christmas!

 

[unmerged(739)]

Maybe you could make it harder to quash the rebellions by raising RR in provinces radiating ouward from the core invasion site if the rebellion isn't dealt with soon enough? This would add a certain sense of urgency to eliminating the Mongols.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

thanx for the fast responses.

ok, so they dont need to be vassalised b4 being annexed because they have no provinces? i will keep in mind the dangers of creating TP nations. has anyone also tried colony nations?

I already mentioned about raising the revolt risk. Yes, peter is right that i have not considered a larger China with non state culture/religion provinces. but still the tech level that China would have post 1480 already tilts the scales extremely in favour of China, even if u do not consider the power that China would have with 80 provinces. And i had been able to keep the rebellion under complete control pretty swiftly, so i dont think penalty for not dealing with the revolts swiftly would be very useful.

We can always raise RR to 100%, and in my opinion (which is completely different from the opinion i had b4 playtesting) that would probably just be about enough of a threat. to me, that is absolutely going too far, and much more of a childplay than province swapping events. And whats wrong with province swapping events anyway? yes, i agree in the treaty of nerchinsk it would cause trouble, but if the province being swapped is either going to be swapped or have revolts anyway, and it is supposed to be war torn, i dont see what problem it would cause. (btw, i will try to extract the province swapping part of the T o N events so that only it would remain non default when i have time).

so, unless we want a huge bunch of events directly injecting revolts in the Mongol War, which we seriously dont even know if it would pose enough of a threat if the event occurred when China had lv 20 tech or something, the only better alternative i can think of is creating a nation. the nation would have provinces north of the PTI & prob be a colony so it could be eliminated via a event.

Having said that, the nation approach still needs to be playtested in order to discover its feasibility (just like these events), and i might also playtest China with 80 provinces to confirm my predictions. i still like the idea of a chance to end the Mongol threat once and for all though, so the Mongol War events r still good, just that they might need to be transformed if the nation approch is adopted. i will try & do some tests with a Mongol nation SOON (according to my standard) & post the results. these events are taking longer than i expected. trying to improve the Far East in this game is very difficult, probably due to fundamental societal differences, & often u have to pick the best out of all unsatisfactory solutions. the 1700 startdate vassalisation is another example. nothing in the game can give me a right basis to stop China from annexing Korea. (i m of course open to suggestions if someone can think of a better solution).

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36

ok, so they dont need to be vassalised b4 being annexed because they have no provinces? i will keep in mind the dangers of creating TP nations. has anyone also tried colony nations?

I was talking about force-annexing. Two diplomats. First you dow, then one month later you force-annex (you have 100% - they control nothing). If they dow (as TP China did to me since I was playing on VH I did indeed only need one diplomat)

 

[unmerged(10128)]

ok, i see what u mean now. that is even better. since the mongol nation would be north of the PTI it would be impossible for CHina to defeat it.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
ok, i see what u mean now. that is even better. since the mongol nation would be north of the PTI it would be impossible for CHina to defeat it.

No, no, you just need to be capable of declaring war on them. (Having discovered the province with an explorer earlier, for example). You don't need to visit them with any troops. Or am I missing your point?

 

[unmerged(10128)]

oh. so TP is worth nothing in a war? well, what about a colony?

actually, i m not saying that using rebels will never be enough of a threat. coz i just played China again and i suddenly found myself (probably bcoz i was rushing through the game with maximum speed) experiencing greater and greater number of revolts that got out of control and took me over 10 years to eliminate. My general RR got increased to something like 8% mostly bcoz of random events and tax collectors and much of the random events throughout that whole period either forced me to have more stability hit or more revolts (i was forced to have stability at -3 throughtout most of that period). i even got a message saying some of my army has joined the rebels and my country is under civil war.

However, i think rebels would be much less of a problem if i had assault tech. and since we should really only raise RR to significant levels in border provinces, using nromal armies would probably be more accurate and actually much more interesting.