The Mongol Threat to China

[unmerged(5822)]

I think it is best to simulate the Mongols as rebels. The map would look very funny with just the provinces mentioned; it should really be a much broader (longer) area, but that isn't possible because of the provinces that take up all the height of the corridor (Saian, Selenga) and thus would block Russian movements and expansion.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

hmm... what about inability to give the rebels cavalry and erosion of the threat when as China progress technologically? is there anything that we could do with them?

 

[unmerged(10128)]

nothing?

 

[unmerged(1047)]

I personally haven't any ideas. Am supposing quiet on boards is based on American holiday this week, which is #1 travel week of year for family purposes. Heard on news that 11% of all Americans were expected to travel at least overnight during the second half of current week.

 

[unmerged(9440)]

but not me I'm too poor!

And I'm at school in Canada so I'd miss classes. *grumble*

As for the Mongols, I'd say go for the Rebels. It is tempting to create a Mongol nation, but I don't think that can be properly simulated no matter how much we try.

So... those events that you proposed at the start seem pretty good. If someone could script them and see how they work, you might have just created your mongols (fitting or not). I think that the PTI in that area just wasn't a good call on the part of Paradox. Actually, I don't really like PTI in the first place but I guess I could understand it - not as nearly as many provinces to program and configure. A necessary design sacrifice

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Only reason I'm not gone is my whole family is local. I did in fact go to my aunt's house for Thanksgiving dinner, but it's 20 miles away and I was away from my own house for a total of 4 hours.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Originally posted by Octavius III
but not me I'm too poor!

And I'm at school in Canada so I'd miss classes. *grumble*

As for the Mongols, I'd say go for the Rebels. It is tempting to create a Mongol nation, but I don't think that can be properly simulated no matter how much we try.

So... those events that you proposed at the start seem pretty good. If someone could script them and see how they work, you might have just created your mongols (fitting or not). I think that the PTI in that area just wasn't a good call on the part of Paradox. Actually, I don't really like PTI in the first place but I guess I could understand it - not as nearly as many provinces to program and configure. A necessary design sacrifice

well, i m not an american, but i still travelled overseas just yesterday. i thought lots of ppl arent american in this forum. i thought there r lots of europeans. but anyway.

so we will stick with the rebels then. it's a hell of a lot of events to script. i'd say at least 100 for the whole thing to work for 250 years. i dont mind if someone would help scripting it, but i m still having some difficulty thinking thru some fine details and how to match it with history. thats why it's been so long since the first post and still nothing scripted, the set of events r just so big that it's hard to think thru how it exactly would work. but i think i m close to coming up with a final idea. it will be slightly different from the one initially suggested, i'll post it when i m ready.

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Maybe prepare three or four general events like in Nerchinsk case. Anyway you might want to use them as a pattern later and copy/paste the most of them. If you want to use province_culture command but I can speak in advance that it doesn't work.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

new discussion topic:
unlike in the first post, it now seems to me that it would be better for the Mongol events to cover the Ming dynasty only, otherwise i think it would be covering possibilities that r too small, and possibilities as a result of possibilities that r getting out of hand. So around the time during the end of Ming, the Mongols will somehow have to get subdued, depending on circumstances details of which i m not sure yet (coz it depends on how the historical fall of Ming events r made, which is out of scope of this thread).

what this may mean is, the 4th choice that i proposed in the first post, "overwhelm the Mongols and rule them as part of China", would lack historical basis, since AFAIK that was only done in Qing dynasty and not contemplated during Ming. therefore perhaps the 4th choice should be removed. this will also substantially reduce the complexity of this set of events, coz the 4th choice is the one which gives rise to the most number of possibilities, and saves me a lot of time/work.

so the topic is, whether the 4th choice should be removed leaving us with only 3 choices to deal with the mongols.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Reducing the complexity and thus the weight (i.e. the total number of events needed) is a good idea. However, if the "overrun & rule" option is removed, it might be a nice idead to add a countrysize trigger with an ahistoric final Mongol invasion.

At some predetermined point (60 provinces? 80? - whatever, enough to show that China under the Ming have clearly grown ahistorically strong), the mongol events will no longer fire (i.e. they have a NOT = { countrysize = 60 } trigger - or whatever size you like).

However, one final Mongol invasion will fire based on the same countrysize only. Spawning hordes of rebels in many Northern provinces and probably also a temporarily heightened revolt risk. This should possibly trigger a Chinese event concerned with handling it (allow local defense: -cen, +ari, -cash, -RR, centralised defense: +cen, -lot of cash, lower Northern Prov. manpower base perm., ignore the barbarians: a world of hurt but you don't have to pay)

This will allow the player the pleasure of crushing the Mongols once and for all without the weight of many events.

If this sounds interesting, I'll have a prototype written within a day or two.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

interesting idea. i have a question: what happens if, after haivng reached 60 or whatever number of provinces and a final invasion has occurred, Ming China lost a province (eg as a result of defection, etc), so that it has 59 provinces? an interesting situation would then occur where, after the "final invasion", rebels would still appear along the border (coz the NOT trigger is not met). if, china then gains back 60 provinces there would be no effect.

i have difficulty distinguishing between contemplating an ahistoric once and for all invasion from contemplating an ahistoric comprehensive occupation. it does seem to reduce the number of events, but it may raise other possibilities which is what in the end i want to avoid. what happens if the Chinese response is to ignore the barbarians? should the normal mongol raids happen again?

 

[unmerged(1047)]

The "after the final invasion" thing could be solved by putting a sleep function in that will disable the other events after the "final invasion" event triggers, as long as the "ignore" option is not chosen.

I would assume that ignoring the barbarians, in addition to other more immediate penalties, would not halt future invasions. (That sounded like Ebessen's intent.)

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
interesting idea. i have a question: what happens if, after haivng reached 60 or whatever number of provinces and a final invasion has occurred, Ming China lost a province (eg as a result of defection, etc), so that it has 59 provinces? an interesting situation would then occur where, after the "final invasion", rebels would still appear along the border (coz the NOT trigger is not met). if, china then gains back 60 provinces there would be no effect.

Good point. Easily solved. Instead of triggering on NOT 60 provinces, trigger on NOT <event final invasion triggered>

i have difficulty distinguishing between contemplating an ahistoric once and for all invasion from contemplating an ahistoric comprehensive occupation. it does seem to reduce the number of events, but it may raise other possibilities which is what in the end i want to avoid. what happens if the Chinese response is to ignore the barbarians? should the normal mongol raids happen again?

I was sort of thinking of the ignore option as an "immediately ignore" - so you wouldn't get any help to crush them, more revolts &etc but it wouldn't cost you money immediately, but once you had eventually crushed it, the Mongols were done once and for all. The idea is still half-baked Perhaps having an "ignore" option isn't such a good idea after all

My primary purpose (I am so transparent sometimes ) is to have some sort of possibility of early termination of Mongol raids if a player grows very strong, to avoid the "irrelevant but frequently occurring event" syndrome.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

ok, i dont want to sound picky, but if u trigger on the final event not having occurred, another problem would arise. if China collapsed after having reached 60 provinces and the event has occurred (eg. coz of badboy wars, destablising events, whatever), wouldnt it then be quite possible that the Mongols would revolt against Chinese rule and resume the raids into China? but since ur trigger is the event has not occurred and the events has occurred, the mongol raids would not resume however weak Cihna is. this problem would not arise if the trigger is countrysize, but on the other hand, u will have the problems that i mentioned in the last post if u use the countrysize trigger.

as i see it, the only way to make sure these problems wont occur is to make multiple events to re-trigger the events when the countrysize has either fallen back below 60 or reached 60 again however many times. this means complexity.

if after the final invasion all the mongol raid events r slept, then it is actually impossible to reconcile with the situation that i just mentioned in this post, coz u cant re-wake the events once they r slept.

as for the ignore option, if the intent is that the raids r to be slept, it rests on the assumption that China will be able to crush the rebels. if China failed to crush the rebels and in fact caused a government collapse would it still be logical to say that the Mongols r actually subdued so that the raids would not happen again?

if ignore doesnt halt future raids, then it is somewhat contrary to the original intention to allow possibility of early termination if China is unrealistically strong. do we then need to give the player a second chance to decide when the countrysize reaches 70? if he ignores again, another chance at 80?

i do actually think that the once-and-for-all idea is a good idea. but if the simplicity it gives is not actually that much, it may in the end be better to go with the old idea which is more comprehensive and provides for situations where the Mongols resist after being overrun, which means dont remove the 4th option.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

You could make an OR statement which would prevent the events from firing after the "final event" UNLESS the countrysize falls below a much smaller number (like 20 for example). I'm not aware of a way, however, to trigger on a government collapse.

Also, I'm looking at the possibility of some scripted wars in North America; how exactly would you go about doing this? (kind of ties into our earlier idea of a seperate Mongol country)

 

[unmerged(12274)]

Sorry to butt in like this. But i tried to follow this thread but could'nt quite grasp it. What mongol threat are you talking about?

Before i digress and go into a longwinded session, let me ask you this, in game terms are you trying to replace the manchus.

They appear way too early as a nation. The Jurchen tribe which became the qing or Ching(It sounds like Chi'ing in chinese which means "Pure") dynasty or manchus did not become a regional power till 1620's.

And here is the long.... version.

The Khitan(eastern mongols) rose to power forming the liao dynasty. The jurchen tribe(another eastern mongol tribe) helped the northern Sung in destroying the liao dynasty, turned around against their former friends the northern sung, forcing the emperor to flee to a new capital forming the southern sung dynasty and in turn forming the Jin dynasty.

Chengis Khan first defeated the jin and then the southern sung forming the yuen dynasty.

After the fall of the yuen dynasty, mongols in inner mongolia and much of the outer as well had disintegrated back into tribes. Tribes that consistently raided the border areas(villages and towns). The great wall was strengthened and extended by the mings as a deterrent to these raids(and ofcourse a show of power and grandeur) rather than a fullscale invasion. They also did military expeditions (one of them - burning the former imperial capital of karakorum) bringing all of inner mongolia and north west china upto tibet under their control.

In the early to mid period of the ming dynasty the mongols had the Oyrat alliance, a tribal alliance to be precise, taking control of the trade routes outside the great wall. It disintegrated with the jaljas taking control in outer mongolia and the khalkhas in inner mongolia.

The later ming period was full of internal strife allowing the jurchen to filter back into inner mongolia. They quickly united the tribes and took control forming the "later jin" dynasty which was renamed qing or ching dynasty. During this period they also assimilated chinese culture, food habits; philosophy(confucianism) etc.

When beijing fell to a peasant revolt, the emperor committed suicide throwing the whole country into chaos. A ming general threw open the gates at one of the important passes allowing the qing to walkin and take over beijing.

The later jurchen a eastern mongolian tribe were also called manchus.

Inner mongolia today is an autonomous region with Hohhot as its capital.

So much for the official version.

Here is another take on the whole deal though. I have cut and pasted it from an article.

Disclaimer - The views of the listed article are the authors own

Inner Mongolia, as a part of the Great Mongol Empire, was never a part of China.

From the day Genghis khan founded the Great Mongol Empire in 1206 to the death of the last Grand Khan of the Mongols---Ligdan Khan in 1634, the Mongol nation had been an independent state for more than 400 years.

During the Ming Dynasty of China (1368-1644), there were many wars between the Mongols and the Chinese trying to rule over each other, but the China's dominance had never reached beyond the Great Wall. Once the Mongols even captured an Emperor of China. (In 1449, Esen Taiji defeated Chinese army near Peking and took Chinese emperor Ying-tsung (or Ying Zong) prisoner). Also during the Ming dynasty, Fearing from the Mongol’s invasion, China took great efforts to rebuild the Chinese ancient fortification ---the " Ten thousand miles of " Great Wall. The Mongol Empire lasted outside of the Great Wall until the Jorchid (later known as Manchu) people took over the entire Inner Mongolia in 1634.

During the Manchu rule, the Mongols never had given up their effort to get rid of the Manchu domination to reestablish an independent Mongolia. Galdan Boshogtu (1645-1697) of Dzungar Mongol once succeeded to unite all the Dzungar Mongols (or western Mongols) and the Khalkha Mongols (Outer Mongols) and almost seized Peking, the Capital of the Manchu Empire.
In 1644, Manchu people succeeded in controlling China and Emperor Shuen-chih (or Shun-Zhi) proclaimed the Great Ching Empire (Tai Ching). So we have enough reason to say that Mongolia was not a part of China during this historical period because Mongolia (Including Inner, Outer, Dzungar Mongols) and China were both ruled by a foreign nation during the time of Manchu Empire. Chinese people didn’t have their own state or government, and China, just like Mongolia, was a part of the Empire established by the Manchu people.

The guy really seems to take exception to mongols being called part of chinese empire.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

i guess if someone script up a version of the "final invasion events", we could see whether it would work nicely...


balsr: in the game, mongolia is in PTI (permanant terra incognita), so it doesnt exist in the game. what we r talking about in this thread is how to get around this problem, so that the very important threat that the mongols historically posed against China (the things u were talking about) could be simulated. the things in the first post are ideas regarding the way this could be simulated.

we r not trying to replace the Manchus. i agree that the Manchus perhaps may appear too early as a nation, but that is a separate issue. as u already know, inner mongolia was only conquered by the Manchus in early 1600s, and we r mostly talking about the mongol threat throughout entire Ming China. maybe u would like to raise this issue somewhere in this forum, perhaps in the AGC: China as a start.

the controversy with mongolia as a nation that u r talking about can perhaps be easily explained by different perspectives. to the second author, chinese refers only to Han people, which is why he thinks that Mongolia was not part of China and China was ruled by a foreign power (the Manchus). However, the word Chinese, strictly speaking, is not ethnically nor culturally defined (as Han was), and is only politically defined. under this view, there is no problem to say Inner Mongolia is part of China, bcoz Chinese refers to all ethnic minorities. the fact that the Manchus had to a very great extent assimulated into Han culture supports the view that it is difficult to say that the Qing dynasty does not represent "China".

 

[unmerged(12274)]

Now i am beginning to see light. Thank you. I think it was just me, trying to wade thru too much info at one shot.

The topic of manchus is an interesting one though. Let me see if i can start up a discussion in AGC: China as you suggested.

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
ok, i dont want to sound picky, <MAJOR SNIP >

Compared to how I usually pick apart other peoples' suggestions, you aren't picky at all And besides it is much better to identify such problems early on.

I've written a rough set of events to simulate what we were talking about. As always, they haven't been extensively tested (and they don't have AGC id's either). Read and comment.

# An ahistoric chance to end the Mongol threat /Peter Ebbesen
event = {
	id = 1110000

	trigger = {
		countrysize = 60 # >= 60 provinces
		atwar = no       # peace
		stability = 1    # >= 1, stable

		# Owns the provinces that will be affected
		owned = { province =  645 data = -1 } # Jehol
		owned = { province =  648 data = -1 } # Hepei
		owned = { province = 1561 data = -1 } # Hohhot
		owned = { province = 1560 data = -1 } # Ningxia
		owned = { province =  647 data = -1 } # Liaoning
		owned = { province =  649 data = -1 } # Hebei
		owned = { province = 1562 data = -1 } # Shangxi
	}

	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "The Mongol Threat *"

desc = "The Empire has grown strong, and there is a growing sentiment that the incessant Mongol invasions that have plagued the Ming dynasty be brought to an end once and for all. It is whispered by some at court that the Emperor should consider raising a mighty army to venture deep into Mongolia to crush them, but others caution that such could lead the disparate Mongolian tribes to unite in common cause as has happened in the past."

	style = 1

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1480 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1644 } # end of Ming Dynasty


	action_a = {
		name = "Maintain the status quo"
		command = { type = vp value = -25 }
	}

	action_b = {
		name = "Let us crush them once and for all!"
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -500 } # expensive outfitting
		command = { type = cavalry which = -2 value = 10000 }
		command = { type = infantry which = -2 value = 50000 }
		command = { type = trigger which = 1110001 }
	}
}


# Time to fight the Mongol hordes! /Peter Ebbesen
event = {
	id = 1110001 # triggered by 1110000, the Mongol Threat

	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "The Mongol War *"

desc = "Faced with extinction, the Mongols unite under the leadership of a charismatic tribal chief. After defeating the expeditionary force, the gathered tribes pour out of Mongolia, threatening to overrun Northern China. But they have underestimated the might of the Emperor, who will now let them feel the true strength of the Empire. Gathering the armies will, however, take time, and local warlords are clamoring to be allowed to take independent action to brunt the threat. How shall the defense of China be enacted?"

	style = 1

	action_a = {
		name = "As the Emperor commands!"
		command = { type = stability value = -4 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = 1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 36 value = 6 }
		command = { type = treasury value = -500 }

		# continuing Mongol attacks
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  645 value = 40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  648 value = 40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1561 value = 40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1560 value = 40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  647 value = 20 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  649 value = 20 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1562 value = 20 }

		# Ouch, that hurt. PERMANENTLY
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  645 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  648 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = 1561 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = 1560 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  647 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  649 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = 1562 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which =  645 value = -3 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which =  648 value = -3 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which = 1561 value = -3 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which = 1560 value = -3 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which =  647 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which =  649 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which = 1562 value = -1 }
		command = { type = population       which =  645 value = -15000 }
		command = { type = population       which =  648 value = -40000 }
		command = { type = population       which = 1561 value = -15000 }
		command = { type = population       which = 1560 value = -15000 }
		command = { type = population       which =  647 value = -10000 }
		command = { type = population       which =  649 value = -10000 }
		command = { type = population       which = 1562 value = -10000 }

		# initial Mongol attacks, 5/primary province
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }

		# initial Mongol attacks, 3/secondary province
		command = { type = revolt which =  647 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  647 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  647 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  649 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  649 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  649 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1562 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1562 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1562 }

		# a few spontaneous revolts (8)
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
	}

	action_b = {
		name = "By empowering local warlords"
		command = { type = stability value = -5 }
		command = { type = domestic which = centralization value = -3 }
		command = { type = domestic which = aristocracy value = 3 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk which = 120 value = 10 } # Rise of banditry
		command = { type = treasury value = -1000 }

		# continuing Mongol attacks

		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  645 value = 30 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  648 value = 30 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1561 value = 30 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1560 value = 30 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  647 value = 12 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  649 value = 12 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1562 value = 12 }

		# Ouch, that hurt. PERMANENTLY
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  645 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  648 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = 1561 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = 1560 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  647 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which =  649 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = 1562 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which =  645 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which =  648 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which = 1561 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which = 1560 value = -1 }
		command = { type = population       which =  645 value = -10000 }
		command = { type = population       which =  648 value = -25000 }
		command = { type = population       which = 1561 value = -10000 }
		command = { type = population       which = 1560 value = -10000 }
		command = { type = population       which =  647 value =  -5000 }
		command = { type = population       which =  649 value =  -5000 }
		command = { type = population       which = 1562 value =  -5000 }

		# initial Mongol attacks, 4/primary province
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }

		# initial Mongol attacks, 2/secondary province
		command = { type = revolt which =  647 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  647 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  649 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  649 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1562 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1562 }

		# a few spontaneous revolts (20), as warlords seize the chance to settle scores
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which = -1 }

	}

}

# Victory over the Mongols /Peter Ebbesen
event = {
	id = 1110002

	trigger = {
		event = 1110001  # The player chose to fight the Mongols
		stability = 2    # >= 2, very stable
		countrysize = 60 # Anti-government-collapse trigger ;-)

		# In control of the affected provinces
		control = { province =  645 data = -1 } # Jehol
		control = { province =  648 data = -1 } # Hepei
		control = { province = 1561 data = -1 } # Hohhot
		control = { province = 1560 data = -1 } # Ningxia
		control = { province =  647 data = -1 } # Liaoning
		control = { province =  649 data = -1 } # Hebei
		control = { province = 1562 data = -1 } # Shangxi

	}

	random = no
	country = CHI
	name = "The Mongols Defeated *"

desc = "At long last the Mongols have been crushed. Their armies are no more, their herds butchered, their wives and children hunted and slain on sight, and the few who remain alive cower in fear of the Empire's shadow as they flee to the farthest reaches of Mongolia. Broken in spirit, none will ever dare raise weapon against the Emperor so long as China remains strong. In the wake of victory, Jehol is resettled with loyal subjects and the splendour of the capital is mightily enriched."

	style = 1

	date = { day = 1 month = january year = 1419 }
	offset = 300
	deathdate = { day = 1 month = january year = 1819 }

	action_a = {
		name = "Victory!"
		command = { type = vp value = 100 }
		command = { type = stability value = 1 }
		command = { type = revoltrisk value = -3 }
		command = { type = treasury value = 400 }

		# Kill the province specific revolt risk
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  645 value = -40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  648 value = -40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1561 value = -40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1560 value = -40 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  647 value = -20 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which =  649 value = -20 }
		command = { type = province_revoltrisk which = 1562 value = -20 }

		# To the winner goes the spoils
		command = { type = population       which = 645 value = 5000 }
		command = { type = provinceculture  which = 645 value = -1 }
		command = { type = provincetax      which = -2 value = 4 }
		command = { type = provincemanpower which = -2 value = 3 }
	}
}


# Random Minor Mongol raid if China weakens. /Peter Ebbesen
event = {
	id = 1110003

	trigger = {
		event = 1110002            # The player defeated the Mongols
		NOT = { countrysize = 55 } # <= 55 provinces
	}

	random = yes
	country = CHI
	name = "Minor Mongol raid"

desc = "Though crushed in years past, with the Empire weakened, a few Mongols are willing to test the strength of China again. The Emperor is not amused."

	style = 1

	action_a = {
		name = "Drat!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
	}
}

# Random Minor Mongol raid if China weakens. /Peter Ebbesen
event = {
	id = 1110004

	trigger = {
		event = 1110002            # The player defeated the Mongols
		NOT = { countrysize = 45 } # <= 45 provinces
	}

	random = yes
	country = CHI
	name = "Minor Mongol raid"

desc = "Though crushed in years past, with the Empire weakened, a few Mongols are willing to test the strength of China again. The Emperor is not amused."

	style = 1

	action_a = {
		name = "Drat!"
		command = { type = stability value = -1 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
	}
}

# Random Major Mongol raid if China is severely weakened. /Peter Ebbesen
event = {
	id = 1110005

	trigger = {
		event = 1110002            # The player defeated the Mongols
		NOT = { countrysize = 35 } # <= 35 provinces
	}

	random = yes
	country = CHI
	name = "Major Mongol raid"

desc = "Though crushed in years past, with the Empire weakened, a few Mongols are willing to test the strength of China again. The Emperor is not amused."

	style = 1

	action_a = {
		name = "Drat!"
		command = { type = stability value = -2 }
		# initial Mongol attacks, 3/primary province
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  645 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  648 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1561 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1560 }

		# initial Mongol attacks, 1/secondary province
		command = { type = revolt which =  647 }
		command = { type = revolt which =  649 }
		command = { type = revolt which = 1562 }
	}
}

The ordinary Mongol events should have a NOT = { event = 1110001 } # The Mongols Unite (The reason that the "defeat" isn't chosen as the NOT trigger is that in that case you might get an ordinary Mongol event while in the middle of the fight, which would be sort of strange)

Note that there are extra [ code ] and [ /code ] in the text for better word-wrapping so take care if you copy-paste.

The sequence is:

• China grows strong and chooses to fight Mongols. This is a once in a life-time offer and only occurs when China is at peace and stable.
• The Mongols counterinvade, this hurts quite a bit.
• China restores stability AND controls all seven provinces at the same time AND retains control of at least 60 provinces. This ends the threat.
• If China grows significantly weaker, random Mongol retaliation raids may occur.

MONGOL THREAT issues:

• countrysize 60. Is this too few or too many?
• date 1480 to ensure that the player feels some sort of pain from the Mongols, even if he expands very rapidly. Too late, too soon?
• deathdate 1644. Is this too late?

MONGOL WAR issues:

• Are the primary Mongol attack provinces the right ones? Currently 645 (Jehol), 648 (Hepei), 1561 (Hohhot), 1560 (Ningxia)
• Are the secondary Mongol attack provinces the right ones? Currently 647 (Liaoning), 649 (Hebei), 1562 (Shanxi)
• The general revolt risk is to simulate warlordism and general uncertainty. Is this over the top? Silly? Or appropriate?
• The population casualties are pure speculation since I don't know which values Sun_Zi is dumping into beta 3. I'd suggest 25-40% (primary) and 10-25% (secondary) for centralized, and 5-10% less for warlords (each category) based on a projected 1529 population, let's say. So for p percent, the casualties should be pop_base*1.06^11*p at an estimated 6% avg. growth, rounded to something pretty. (1.06^11 ~1.9)

MONGOLS DEFEATED issues:

• The countrysize trigger is to prevent China from winning just by letting the government collapse. Of course, if collapsing does not release enough vassals to bring the player beneath 60 provinces, a collapse will be enough. But otherwise... It is time to reconquer what is lost.
• The immediate reward is worth less than what was destroyed, as intended. The real reward is no more Mongol raids. (Unless China grows weak, in which case the random events might turn up once in a while)

Your thoughts?

 

[unmerged(10128)]

first of all, nice work. u work much faster than me.

a few comments after first reading it:

*some dp effects if China chose to overwhelm the Mongols? offensive doctrine and land should be increased by 3. and negative the dps when it chose not to invade? -1 to off and land?

*if u decide to mobilise the country for such a huge invasion, seems to me it would more like cost a negative stability hit. stability -4.

*also, to raise troops against the mongols already costs the country manpower and maintenance, so we should takeaway province manpower and tax in the first event (which should correspond with ordinary mongol events). this should not be limited to the border provinces, but the entire northern China to support those invasions (eg all province north of the Yangtze river). these penalties should be temporary.

*this also brings out the related issue that the trigger provinces should actualy be enlarged to cover all northern China.

*seems to me, to say that mongols reunite under one chief and counter invade is too deterministic. lets make the wording more general or vague. something like "the attempt to completely overrun the mongols are met with fierce resistance where a bloody war ensued across the region. cost to support the war is forced to very high levels." instead of centralised or local DEFENCE, maybe say centralised or local STRATEGY to deal with the war.

*under the above description, it may seem that the second event could actually be merged into the first where the option b to "crush them once and for all" is split into 2 ways to do it entralised or localised strategy. but 2 events is probably a better idea coz u need the second event as a trigger for the third event, the first event cant act as a trigger.

*second event dont need to have stability hits anymore coz of the above.

*if 2 events r to remain, we should distinguish in the 2nd event between permanent tax/manpower hits caused by war/turmoil, and temporary tax/manpower hits caused by further increased support costs. so not all tax/manpower hits has to be permanent.

*between this event and the victory event, a few events could add some spice to the whole thing by creating randomness. we can use the offset trick again, setting the offset to 10 years (assuming victory could be met in around 7 years, otherwise adjust accordingly). the faster the victory conditions r met, the less likely these additional events (usually further penalties) will arise. once the victory event happens, it will sleep all these intermediate events. the events could randomly say stuff like mongol war situation deteriorating or improving, requiring additional/less cost.

*i dont think the treasury or tax/manpower bonus to the capital after victory is necessary, or at least it's too much. end of all mongol events is already a good enough bonus.

*since u r making completely new events to cover the situation where china weakens after victory, it is not necessary to have a event NOT happened trigger in every ordinary mongol event. it is much easier to sleep all mongol events in "time to fight Mongol hordes event".

*i have some reservations about using random=yes to simulate rebels when china grows weak. the likelihood that it would happen is very uncertain. we may need to think of some other way to do it. perhaps just make it random=no?

now i m picking apart someone else's suggestions too