The Mongol Threat to China

[unmerged(10128)]

Ok, can someone tell me answers to any of the questions below (i need definite answers). that would save me a lot of time trying to playtest whether these (and other) events could work b4 trying to script them.

1. Can an event occur for a nation even if it doesnt exist on the map?

2. Can rebels receive events whereby the command is to place specific number of rebel troops in Chinese provinces?

3. How well does the AI respond to rebellion (be specific)?

4. What is the maximum number of days u can set for "offset"? i need very large numbers. 5000? or even 150 000?

5. How do u stop 2 events from happening the same day when both are under the random effect of offset? will putting sleep event in one of the events work? or will putting the trigger NOT = { event = xxxx } in one of the events work? does it matter which of the 2 events u put in those commands/trigger?

thanx

 

[unmerged(5822)]

1. No
2. No

 

[unmerged(10128)]

u r sure about that, right? coz i thought someone said even natives could receive events, and i think it's possible to place troops in unowned provinces.

so the only way to create rebel troops is to trigger a revolt?

what about the other 3 questions??

 

[Peter Ebbesen]

1. No
2. No (pretty sure, but easy to test)
3. When not at war, the AI is fairly good at quashing rebels in provinces it has road access to, whereas it is more dicey for islands or land-masses disjoint from their mainland.While at war, the priorities are more confused, but if the rebels are near major staging areas or on the path to the front, the AI is very good at eliminating them given high manpower, since the AI produces troops like mad while funds and manpower allows.

The AI is good at retaking rebel L1-L2 fortresses by siege (again assuming road access) and will occasionally assault. The AI is fair at retaking L3 fortresses. The AI is poor at retaking L4 fortresses. Don't expect the AI to ever retake a L5-L6 fortress, except if it occurs in a province that cannot form as a revolter, and even then it is unlikely, since the AI won't bring sufficient cannon to complete the siege in a few years.
4, 5 No idea.

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
4. What is the maximum number of days u can set for "offset"? i need very large numbers. 5000? or even 150 000?

Don't know a maximum, but once you start getting over 10000 or so, the events tend to be much, much more likely to happen immediately after a savegame than while playing. You may be better off trying to use random events.

5. How do u stop 2 events from happening the same day when both are under the random effect of offset? will putting sleep event in one of the events work? or will putting the trigger NOT = { event = xxxx } in one of the events work? does it matter which of the 2 events u put in those commands/trigger?

Putting a sleepevent in one of the events makes it so that if that one fires first, the other never can. Putting a NOT={event=xxxx} in the trigger of one of the events makes it so that it never fires before the other one (though they can be as little as a day apart, and if they have similar offsets, or very large ones, they probably will happen only a day apart). Putting one of these in both events makes it so that only one of the two can happen. I can't think of a way to separate two events without giving them at least approximate dates, nor a way to make sure they don't happen on the exact same day without forcing one to happen before the other.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Ok, thanx for all the input. 1 and 3 is now clear. i want to elaborate more on 2. i've now confirmed (by testing) that 2 is not possible, in fact it is not possible to place troops outside borders for any country (i seemed to have thought it could from memory), only conquisdators can be placed outside borders (maybe i got it mixed up with this).

now, even though it's not possible, there may be a way to get around this. this could be done by a series of events seceding the province itself to the rebels, then legitimately placing troops in that province, and then revert the province back to China. but i need to know whether the rebels actually could receive events (i cant seem to confirm this in my tests). i thought i have heard someone say pirates or natives could receive events. is that under any special condition? which files do i have to fiddle with to create events for the rebels??

 

[unmerged(7398)]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
now, even though it's not possible, there may be a way to get around this. this could be done by a series of events seceding the province itself to the rebels, then legitimately placing troops in that province, and then revert the province back to China. but i need to know whether the rebels actually could receive events (i cant seem to confirm this in my tests). i thought i have heard someone say pirates or natives could receive events. is that under any special condition? which files do i have to fiddle with to create events for the rebels??

This is awfully convoluted. What's wrong with just causing a revolt, or multiple revolts if that's not enough, in the relevant provinces?

 

[unmerged(10128)]

i guess u r probably right. i thought it would be easier to control the number of troops popping out that way... what determines how many rebels come out anyway??

 

[unmerged(10128)]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
5. How do u stop 2 events from happening the same day when both are under the random effect of offset? will putting sleep event in one of the events work? or will putting the trigger NOT = { event = xxxx } in one of the events work? does it matter which of the 2 events u put in those commands/trigger?

ok, ive now tested this out. sleep event will not prevent 2 events happening on the same day but NOT ={ event = xxxx } will. anyway, the chance that 2 events will occur on the same date is negligible. i think i m ready to write up the mongol events now. there will firstly be a line of events when mongols would be represented as revolts popping out of China's norther border provinces. then the 4 policy choices would affect how many revolts will occur in the next time frame........

 

[unmerged(6881)]

Have you tested the situation while both events has the same startdate and offset?

 

[unmerged(10128)]

yes, in that case they may or may not fire on the same day. but if they turn out firing on the same day, NOT ={ event = xxxx } will prevent this from happening, sleepevent wont.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

what would be a good balanced effect for all 4 policy decisions?
lets just say by default 3 mongol raids happen in each time frame. one with around 25k rebels, one with around 40k rebels, one with 50k.

defence policy: no effect on the number of the rebels, but forces u to build fortresses as part of the great wall (costing around 300d), dp moves to defensive doctrine, other effects?

appeasement policy: reduces mongol raids by sleeping 25k
appearances for the next 2 time frames, chance of success = 70%, costing around 200d, other effects?

offensive policy: reduces mongol raids by sleeping both the 50k and 25k appearance for the next time frame only, chance of success = 85%, income -1 in 10 northern provinces for around 10 years, other effects?

occupation policy: no mongol raids, chance of success = 30% (vary with time), -3? tax value in 10 northern provinces, but reducing to -2, -1 as time goes on, with sudden uprising events occuring that will either end ur occupation or shoot up ur tax value cost for a while (ur choice), dp goes to offensive, other effects?

do these 4 policy choice seem balanced? do their overall degree seem too servere or not servere enough? other effects u can think of for each policy?

 

[Aetius]

Originally posted by Sun_Zi_36
i guess u r probably right. i thought it would be easier to control the number of troops popping out that way... what determines how many rebels come out anyway??

The province they pop-up in, big/rich provinces generate more rebels. I used multiple rebels event in the same province to get big rebellions, but I don't know if it makes a difference.

 

[unmerged(10128)]

ok, this thread is resurrected. things r going on so fast in the AGC that i just cant keep up, even my China thread is now dumped in the 2nd page only after 2 days silence. we have well over 100 posts per day in this forum, which is actually a good sign, i guess. btw, i might have to slow down even further for the next week since i m going overseas for a while, but i still might have internet access at times.

ok so the issue needed for debate is, do we want a nation to represent Mongolia raiding into China or do we just want them as rebel scum raiding into China? there were support for creating a new Mongol nation north of the PTI, but i said that rebels would be used. now i m open to change this decision, if there is enough support. the new nation, if there is one, will only be north of the PTI most of the game. I'll list the reasons for each solution:

a nation north of PTI
*more flexibility in scripting the events that simulate the Mongol thread to China. the composition of the armies appearing along Chinese borders could be changed (more cavalry than infantry), effects on relations, etc.
*the threat does not get eroded as much because of Chinese tech progress. Mongolia can also have tech progress.
*the Oyrat Mongols would have to be created to simulate its conquest of Chagatai and Tibet anyway.

rebels to simulate the threat
*no risk of Mongolia being conquered by Russia either AI or human and frustrating all the events. (however, that would be late in the game and backup events could be made to force it to gain independence.
*impossible to eliminate Mongolia from the map at the time when China did in fact conquer Mongolia.
*no AI uncertainty. rebels could not form alliances with other nations, as a Mongolia nation AI might. AI might change their DP sliders, and do whatever that might affect the events. (there may be ways to treat this but hard to eliminate).
*if we have a new mongol nation, we cannot force it to have peace with China (although a white peace might be signed if there is inaction for whatever years (i cant remember), but that might cause acceptable/unacceptable war exhaustion on China).
*do not need to script extra events so that Mongolian troops would appear in unowned provinces, events wont become awfully complicating.

ok, i want ur opinions.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

I am not entirely sure if it is a good idea or not... would "Mongolia" get any provinces south of the PTI? AFAIK, that's a necessity for them being able to get troops there, and if the province is lost in a peace deal with China...

 

[Lambert Simnel]

Were it my choice I would give china a bunch of rebel events simulating Mongols coming over the Wall, some of which are slept if the Wall is maintained. A tag would be given to the Northern Yuan (a name used by eastern Mongols to show their connection with China's Yuan dynasty) they would not be a starting nation but could revolt in Hohhot or Nigxia if the wall crossers were left alone long enough to form a nation. If they exist China's events are replaced with events for the Northern Yuan representing aid coming from their subjects in the PTI

 

[unmerged(10128)]

no, they wont get any provinces south og the PTI, but when the event occurs, China will secede the province to Mongolia, then MOngolia have troops placed there, and event will revert the province back to China (i m using that trick again).

there r a few times in history where the Mongols did in fact cross the war during Ming, but they never attempted to re-establish the Yuan dynasty (at least not the attempts after 1419). they just do not have that resolve to conquer the whole of China again. i think the Mongols should appear whether the wall is maintained or not. see the way i want to simiulate it in the first post.

 

[unmerged(7398)]

I'd really prefer rebels. A Mongolia in the Siberian corridor is likely to obstruct the Russians, and you already know what I think of thirty-second province secessions.

 

[unmerged(1047)]

Just being creative here.... if you did have a one-prov Mongol country somewhere (and I can think of a way to keep it from blocking the Russians, but it into the "funnel" area on the east end of the corridor), and it had the northern Chinese provs as core provinces, might rebels there not defect to them if not kept under Chinese control? Or declare independence as them (if included in revolt file) should China get up the force to actually go conquer them?

As far as locale, even if it's not strictly historically accurate, I was thinking somewhere in the area of the Sea of Okhotsk coastline, or possibly that one province just NE of Selenga (next to Lake Baikal) - both are easily bypassable by Russia, or conquerable if their techs are limited (they won't have a huge fort, and I am assuming they'd be Pagan).

 

[unmerged(10128)]

which provinces exactly would obstruct the Russian? i m thinking of 596 599 601 either one or two.

defections is probably not the right penalty considering what historically happened and that the position of the northern Chinese provinces are actually all south of the wall.

i know swapping provinces is something not very desirable coz it would make events awfully complicating (i might add this to the list of reasons), but there r still problems associated with using rebels, which i given out, which may or may not outweigh the problems with using a nation. this is also unlike the treaty of Nerchinsk where an unrelated province is secede in order to achieve something else. the provinces secedes/reverted would be those where troops would appear anyway.