The Mongol hordes and religion

[yourworstnightm]

Il khans are far more west than the Timurids were, and Timur was a rebellious leader within the Chagatai Khanate, which here has succeed in keeping their western positions, but ask in the China thread, this is a question that concerns China more.

And this thread has developed to be about more than religon some time ago.

 

[unmerged(26209)]

Actually, that is a cool idea... however, I am guessing since the Mongols were defeated in Bagdhad, they never got much power in the middle east, which would make it wierd to have a strnog mongol state in Persia.

 

[yourworstnightm]

The ilkhan won't be that strong in Persia, but still own much of it. Timur going east would concern China more and I suggest you coordinate this in the China thread. Cool idea though.

 

[unmerged(33565)]

Just for my own information as a build a historical timeline in India, how far east did Islam get. Did it reach India as it did in RL or was it stoped somewhere before that. Also, what kind of state will Afganistan be in for the last hundred years or so, so that I know what kind of infulance it will have on an Indian states that I create in that area. Will anything in that area have been any threat to invade?

Just wanted to fill in my back story. I was thinking something like that they take most of persia, but in an attempt to cross the Khyber pass lose most of their invading army to extremly bad weather, forcing them to pull out of eastern persia until they can regain their strength. Once they return however, they are pushed back and deciede that it is more fruitfull to concentrate on the west and Europe then Asia.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Persia pretty much stopped islam from reaching India that way, but Afghanistan will still be islamic, so I guess islam could have reached India that way. I would prefer a hinduic India with no islamic interfere. The afghans were reuled by islamic turks until the mongol invasion. Now they're a part of the Nestorian Chagatai Khanate, but still moslems, trying to break free from the khan.


By the way I'm thinking of making some natives nestorian in the sibirian corridor, since there were nestorian influences there too.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Still working on how the map will look like and have now finally made up a fist plan for a map for the Ilkhanate with neighbours. The ilkhanate will pretty much own provinces they rl controlled, with exception of the principal of Fars that will be a vassal.

Il Khanate:
Bukhara 1532
Khorasan 1530
Meched 526
Elbruz 525
Lut 528
Tabaristan 529
Tabriz 530
Awhaz 532
Isfahan 533
Hamadan 531 (sorry Kaliphate, but do not worry, you'll still get the province easy)
Kerman 527
Birjand 1529
Herat 1531
Kushka 1528
Zahedan 1526
Qandahar 1525
Mekran 536
Baluchistan 537
Kalat 538

Fars (vassal of Ilkhanate)
Fars 534
Hormouz 535

Then to the east coast of the Caspic sea: RL this area was controlled by Timurids, but the Timurids are not in, and Ilkhanate never controlled the coast, in the 1200s the coast was controlled by the Golden Horde, but they couldn't hold on to it for long.

So I created two Ilkhan vassals:
Turkmenistan:
The nestorian turks of the east Caspian coast never accepted the rule of the Golden Horde, with support from the more tolerant Ilkhans they set up an own state.
Turkmenistan:
Turkmenistan 524
Kara Kum 523
Karabogaz 521

The other vassal is Khwarzim:
When the threat of the violent uzbekhs aroese the islamic khan of Khwarzim decided to seek support from the ilkhan.'
Khwarzim:
Khwarzim 522
Khiva 1533

Since the Timurid Empire never was created, the Chagatai Khanate still has their western parts (but as I understood from the China thread, they have instead lost their eastern parts). In this world Chagatai was a nestorian, but he got support from both nestorian and moslem turks. Now the differnet clanchiefs are trying to influence the khan to choose their religon. the Chagatais start as nestorians:
Chagatai Khanate:
Dsungaria 1601
Bogda Shan 1602
Tian Shan 1600
Kirgisistan 1599
Tadjikistan 1598
Uzbek 1594
Samarkand 1592
Surkhandary 1591
Kabul 1527
Quetta 1524

 

[MattyG]

Very interested to see the map itself.

You have amde a lot of places vassals of the Ilkhanate. What will prevent them Diploannexing all these in 1429 and creating something very very big?

Are they of different religions or have very very bad relations?

 

[yourworstnightm]

The only state that can be diploannexed easier is Khwarzim. Fars (zoroastrians, remember) will revolt and never have good relations with the kahnate, and Turkmenistan can't be diploannexed, since it's orthodox. Also, as soon as the uzbekhs are ready with the khazaks Khwarzim will be the next target, and I doubt the Ilkhanate will be in any position to diplannex in 1429, due to the tumult within the khanate at that time.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

I know this may come up late, but Im intrested in seeing the setup for Asia so we can coup it with the Caliphate events

 

[yourworstnightm]

The thing is I'm overwhelmed with studies, and haven't had time to work on this lately, but the idea I hope is clear, the ilkhanate, ruled from Bukhara controlls most of Persia, while a vassal state in the south start to revolt. The islamic uzbeks, loyal supporters of the calipah should also be taken in concideration, would be gald if someone took over this, since I won't have time to work on this for some months now.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Though Im working on Tlemscen, Ive also begun building up on yourworstnightmares set up for Persia and Central Asia.The only small difference is that rather than making Fars Zorastrian, we should just keep them Muslim (as I really find no point in keeping the Zorastric religion in the game, it would be too small, and too insignificant to make any conversions).

(I know I know, it sucks, but I dont have photoshop so give me some slack )

Uzbek Khanate in the North, Ill Khanate rules from Bukara (The Caliphate events I think would have to be altered, since the capital is no longer in Isfahan).I shuffled the religions a bit, made the Buddhists more in Northern Persia, so Isfahan and Fars are Sunni again.The chagati is Orthodox I think , so I made some of the eastern Ill-Khanate Provinces Orthodox.

I made some events for Ill-Khanate , do you still have them with you Matty?we can replace the current Timurid file with them.There more or less based on the persian file until some permenant restructuring occurs.I also sent the flag to Matty.

 

[yourworstnightm]

The chagatai khanate is orthodox, but should have religous issues, western provinces (remember Timur has never existed, northern Afghanistan is Chagatai and moslem). So expand the Chagatai khanate westwards. They should have a problematic time changing religon a lot. I though we would use the generic religon for zoroastrianism. The Turkmenistan provinces should also be orthodox, thought that there could be an orthodox vassal of the ilkhan, since the ilkhanate had never reached the Caspian sea. Otherwise you have almost done as much work than I ever had time to, great! Was thinking about linking some uzbekh and kaliphate events, for example letting the uzbeks send "mercenaries" to help the Caliph, and the appearance of an uzbekh warrior- class in the Caliphate.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

The chagatai khanate is orthodox, but should have religous issues, western provinces (remember Timur has never existed, northern Afghanistan is Chagatai and moslem). So expand the Chagatai khanate westwards. They should have a problematic time changing religon a lot. I though we would use the generic religon for zoroastrianism. The Turkmenistan provinces should also be orthodox, thought that there could be an orthodox vassal of the ilkhan, since the ilkhanate had never reached the Caspian sea. Otherwise you have almost done as much work than I ever had time to, great! Was thinking about linking some uzbekh and kaliphate events, for example letting the uzbeks send "mercenaries" to help the Caliph, and the appearance of an uzbekh warrior- class in the Caliphate.

I had similar ideas regarding a warrior class, a Turkish one, but the Uzbeks is quite intresting...

I had this set up in mind, the Fars Emirate is Muslim and would instigate revolts in Persia, they would be most bloody in the west (Thus the Caliphate interferes) - if all of Persia is taken by the Caliphate, Fars is simply annexed.

On the other hand, Fars may take the battle in its own hands, and simply retake Persia and declare herself the new Persian Empire.

Uzbeks support the Caliph and invade the Southern (Uzbek) lands, and the "Orthdox" Kingdom.Once they take the alloted number of provinces, they can declare themselves the Khawarizim Sultanate (One of the most powerful Sultanates in the world at one time, alas destroyed by the Mongolian invasion).I will move Chagati a bit to the west, and islamize Afghanistan.So I assume Tibet takes some of the Chagati provinces to the east?

Regarding Ill-Khanate, I will give them a conversion to Islam event during the 16th century if they own Persia (a Mongolian Khan is born from a Muslim mother) or if the Caliphate takes Persia, and claims Baluchi and other parts of the Ill-Khanate, the Muslim brothers of the khan declare a general rebellion and try to sieze Samarkand and Bukara to establish a Muslim Rule.There is a rush from the Chagati, Uzbek, and the Princes of Central Asia to gnaw on the body of the Ill-khanate.

As for Chagati, I assume they would be in cordial relations with the Buddhists of Bukara, as well...they are their only allies against the Muslims.They would also try to exert an influence to the Christian Kingdom on the Caspian Sea (any suggested names?).

 

[yourworstnightm]

As long as the Chagatai stay Christian they should collaborate with the Christians at the Caspian Sea and Buddhist Ilkhans, however the Chagatai religous crisis should be able to turn them Moslems.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

After the initial attack of 1241 there was a series of political crises within the Mongolian Empire which made it impossible to concentrate in Kipchak territory an invasion force capable of threatening Europe. The wealth of the Kipchak rested on the international trade of the caravan routes. Silk and spices to the Mediterranean and Europe passed through Sarai and the other Mongol cities on the lower Volga, while the fur trade was diverted to the Caspian. As C. J. Halperin points out in `Russia in the Mongol Empire in comparative perspective’, in Harvard Journal of Asiatic Studies, 43/1 (1983), p 250-1: `Horde foreign policy focused overwhelmingly upon acquisition of the rich pastures and caravan routes of Azerbaijan ... Russia itself was peripheral to the Horde, not only geographically but also politically and economically.’ With scarcely six million people Russia could contribute only a modest amount of manpower and taxes to the Azerbaijan campaigns.



Batu’s Muslim brother Berke became the Kipchak Khan in 1257 and imposed on the khanate a strategic reorientation. Berke disapproved of Hülegü’s murder of the ‘Abbasid Caliph of Baghdad. In 1262 this contributed to the outbreak of the first of a long series of wars between the khanate of Kipchak and the Ilkhanate. The Kipchak khans wished to possess themselves of north-western Persia and the Caucasus occupied by the Ilkhans. Berke created an alliance between his Kipchak khanate and the Mamluks of Egypt. Turkish replaced Mongolian on coins as early as the reign of Tِdei-Mِngke (1280-1287), and after 1260 the Ilkhans of Persia began to see Christian rulers, notably Philip the Fair of France and Edward Longshanks of England, as potential allies against the Mamluks and the allied khanate of Kipchak.

In later times the Kipchak Mongols intervened in Hungary, especially in the 1280s and 1290s, when Prince Nogai was virtual co-ruler of the Kipchak khanate. Nogai took an active interest in the affairs of south and south-east Europe. But for the same strategic weaknesses as before there was no effective attempt at occupation. Under ضzbeg (1313-1341) the Kipchak khanate became officially Muslim. The rulers identified themselves with their Turkish subjects and with peoples to the south rather than with the Christian Russians to the north. Unlike the Yüan dynasty or the Ilkhanate, Kipchak couldn’t draw on the quantity of artillery necessary for the reduction of the great towers and cities of Christendom. Weapons of sufficient quantity and quality could only have been manufactured and maintained by a sedentary population with the kind of advanced engineering skills available to China or Persia. While Kipchak continued to be an effective power for longer than any of the other Mongol khanates, its survival was also due to its remoteness from civilisation. Greater contact with densely settled societies like Europe could only have accelerated its decline and demise.

Kipchak khanate .... exchange the uzbeks, and keep the Kipchak Khanate, allies of the Abbasid Caliphate.Both would work for the destruction of the Ill-Khanate in a last push, Kipchak attempts an invasion of Tartaria and intervenes with the collapse of the Golden Horde.

Would be intresting to see a Chinese-Tartar-Turkish empire in the North.

 

[unmerged(20077)]

How about the Naiman or Qarluk for the Christian Turkic state in the middle? The Naiman are the better known (used in the MES) and the Qarluk are the tribe that split into Christian/Buddhist and Muslim halves, with the former creating the Kara-Khitai empire that Genghis Khan destroyed.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Umm... The kipchaks are acctually the same as the Golden Horde, just another name for them.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Umm... The kipchaks are acctually the same as the Golden Horde, just another name for them.

I thought they divulged when the Kipchak Khanate broke up, you know, blue, White, and Golden Hordes and all that?

Tartars, never figured them out o

How about the Naiman or Qarluk for the Christian Turkic state in the middle? The Naiman are the better known (used in the MES) and the Qarluk are the tribe that split into Christian/Buddhist and Muslim halves, with the former creating the Kara-Khitai empire that Genghis Khan destroyed.

Great, Qarluk seems acceptable.

 

[unmerged(31994)]

Still working on how the map will look like and have now finally made up a fist plan for a map for the Ilkhanate with neighbours. The ilkhanate will pretty much own provinces they rl controlled, with exception of the principal of Fars that will be a vassal.

Il Khanate:
Bukhara 1532
Khorasan 1530
Meched 526
Elbruz 525
Lut 528
Tabaristan 529
Tabriz 530
Awhaz 532
Isfahan 533
Hamadan 531 (sorry Kaliphate, but do not worry, you'll still get the province easy)
Kerman 527
Birjand 1529
Herat 1531
Kushka 1528
Zahedan 1526
Qandahar 1525
Mekran 536
Baluchistan 537
Kalat 538

Fars (vassal of Ilkhanate)
Fars 534
Hormouz 535

Then to the east coast of the Caspic sea: RL this area was controlled by Timurids, but the Timurids are not in, and Ilkhanate never controlled the coast, in the 1200s the coast was controlled by the Golden Horde, but they couldn't hold on to it for long.

So I created two Ilkhan vassals:
Turkmenistan:
The nestorian turks of the east Caspian coast never accepted the rule of the Golden Horde, with support from the more tolerant Ilkhans they set up an own state.
Turkmenistan:
Turkmenistan 524
Kara Kum 523
Karabogaz 521

The other vassal is Khwarzim:
When the threat of the violent uzbekhs aroese the islamic khan of Khwarzim decided to seek support from the ilkhan.'
Khwarzim:
Khwarzim 522
Khiva 1533

Since the Timurid Empire never was created, the Chagatai Khanate still has their western parts (but as I understood from the China thread, they have instead lost their eastern parts). In this world Chagatai was a nestorian, but he got support from both nestorian and moslem turks. Now the differnet clanchiefs are trying to influence the khan to choose their religon. the Chagatais start as nestorians:
Chagatai Khanate:
Dsungaria 1601
Bogda Shan 1602
Tian Shan 1600
Kirgisistan 1599
Tadjikistan 1598
Uzbek 1594
Samarkand 1592
Surkhandary 1591
Kabul 1527
Quetta 1524

I like this current base - but we should just merge Khwarizim with Uzbek and change the name of Turkumenistan to Qarluk.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Sounds good. Qarluk, never thought about that.