The Mongol hordes and religion

[Incompetent]

At the moment Abe takes the vanilla position, that outside of Mongolia itself, the various Mongol states adopted Sunni Islam along with most of the population, the only exception being Sibir. But I get the impression that in history, a lot of this conversion happened in the 14th century, not long before the start of Aberration. So what if the Mongols had kept some of their previous beliefs, or picked up other ones? Historically the Mongols adopted everything from Buddhism to Christianity.

What I'm suggesting is not that no Mongols would be Sunni, but that they could be far more diverse in their religious views, particularly at the province level.

Also, what if the Timurids had not crumbled in Persia? ATM they're a walkover for the Caliphate thanks to vanilla events, but if we allow them to maintain some control over the Persians they could be a decent challenge to the Caliph. From what I gather the Mongols aren't going to be waltzing into India, so we don't need to worry about them getting too powerful.

 

[yourworstnightm]

When RoTW is getting aberrated now, I think it's a good idea to thinm over Central Asia. Why's even the Timurids in the game, from what I understood the mongol hordes had been less sucessfull in abe and thus the Kaliphate still exist.

And letting the Hordes being buddhists or christians is an intriguing aidea.

 

[unmerged(38537)]

I have 2 questions:
1. What about putting Il-Khanate instead of the Timurids?
2. What kind of Christianity would have the Mongols?

 

[Incompetent]

I have 2 questions:
1. What about putting Il-Khanate instead of the Timurids?
2. What kind of Christianity would have the Mongols?

1. Excellent idea.
2. Given the kind of Christians they'll have come into contact with, it would be Eastern Christianity of various kinds (represented by Orthodox in-game).

 

[unmerged(38537)]

In my opinion, the Il-Khanate (Hulagids' Ulus), could be Nestorian (Orthodox in the game) and it would try to help the crusader states in fighting the Muslims...

In addition, we know that Catholic missionaries were sent to the Mongols, but without successes. The Europeans tried also to get help of the Great Khan (mission of Benedict the Pole/Polish), but they received only warnings.
In "Aberration", could be, of course, differently - what about making some Hordes Catholic?

 

[Incompetent]

In my opinion, the Il-Khanate (Hulagids' Ulus), could be Nestorian (Orthodox in the game) and it would try to help the crusader states in fighting the Muslims...

In addition, we know that Catholic missionaries were sent to the Mongols, but without successes. The Europeans tried also to get help of the Great Khan (mission of Benedict the Pole/Polish), but they received only warnings.
In "Aberration", could be, of course, differently - what about making some Hordes Catholic?

Both very possible, but I don't think we need everyone to attack the Caliphate at once. I was actually thinking the Ilkhanate could be Buddhist, which would be even more of an affront to the Muslim world than a Christian power. Historically, the Ilkhanate had a succession of Buddhist Khans in the 13th century, but they didn't exactly believe in universal compassion: Muslims and Christians were relentlessly persecuted. If they'd stayed Buddhist, who knows, maybe they'd actually have forced Buddhism on a significant chunk of the populace?

 

[yourworstnightm]

Why not make the Ilkhanate buddhist, it would be a nice twist, especially if there are a lot of moslem khans (or christian, or both) that try to break themselves free now and then. There could even be a choice for the ikhanate to either hold on to the south (northern khanates free themselves) or hold on to the north, lose Persia to the Kaliphate. The Ilkhanate could also have a moslem rival in a Uzbekh Empire that will try to attack the khanate now and then (with possible support from the Kaliphate). What about making the Chagatai Khanate christian orthodox, as I understand there had been nestorian infuence in the area.

 

[yourworstnightm]

It seem to be my job to make up the aberrated history for Persia and Central Asia.
Ideas so far:
Persia was never conquered by the Kaliphate and remained zoradic, however the islmaic fate did spread to the western border provinces. Persia later fell for the turks, but the turks never forced them to take on the moslem faith, instead some turks converted to zoradism, while islam was strengthened in the western parts. Later on the il khnas conquered Persia. The Il khans were buddhists and did not have much support from the zoradic and islamic persian provinces, and neither from the nestorian and islamic central asian provinces. In 1419 the Il khanate was a fragile state with many rebellios movements.

The principal of Fars:
The zoradic princes of Fars were of both turkiskand opersian nobility, their ancestors were both the mighty Sassanids as well as the sejukh turks. When the mongol invasion began they switched side and fought for the great Khans, later they swore allegiance to the great Il khan. The principal of Fars would be a small vassal (Fars and some other province), but when the persian uprising begin (event for the Il khanate in the late 1400s) Fars could play a big role.

Te Timurids:
The Samarkand area and Afghanistan is in the vanilla game controlled by the Timurid Empire. The Tiurids came out of the Chagatai Khanate under the warlord Timur Lenk. So how should the Timurids be remodelled, should they be in at all? Or should the Chagatai Khanate be a little bigger? In that case what should we do about Afghanistan and Baluchistan? Or should the Timurids be a smaller empire (Samarkand area, Afghnistan, Baluchistan)?

The Uzbekhs:
The uzbekhs is a little islamic horde outside of the ilkhanate. (note the uzbekhs will be moved north since the Ilkhanate will own much of the old uzbekh provinces). However the Il khanate grows weaker and the kalipah in Baghdad call for jihad! The uzbekhs and the kaliphate could very well become good allies, both have their own interrest zones in the area.

The Persian Empire:
If the persian revolt is sucessful Fars should be able to become the Persian empire, with cores on all persian lands, but should the cores stretch even futher? should the persians be able to become a super power, or just a medium sized power that block the way for The Kaliphate and the uzbekhs. If Persia is to become a great power, where should it be able to expand? India? Afghanistan? Central Asia? The Levant? Anatolia? Ideas please!

Nestorianism:
Nestorinism will be modelled by orthodox. Will research in which areas nestorianism were strong, but I already have some ideas of a nestorian Chagatai Khanate and a nestorian Khazal horde. note that nestorian mini khanates should be able to revolt from the I lkhanate.


Zoradism: Zoradism could be shiite, since it has no real meaning in Abe, but it could also be confucianism, since that religon is going to be reworked. Any ideas?

 

[Incompetent]

It seem to be my job to make up the aberrated history for Persia and Central Asia.
Ideas so far:
Persia was never conquered by the Kaliphate and remained zoradic, however the islmaic fate did spread to the western border provinces. Persia later fell for the turks, but the turks never forced them to take on the moslem faith, instead some turks converted to zoradism, while islam was strengthened in the western parts. Later on the il khnas conquered Persia. The Il khans were buddhists and did not have much support from the zoradic and islamic persian provinces, and neither from the nestorian and islamic central asian provinces. In 1419 the Il khanate was a fragile state with many rebellios movements.

The principal of Fars:
The zoradic princes of Fars were of both turkiskand opersian nobility, their ancestors were both the mighty Sassanids as well as the sejukh turks. When the mongol invasion began they switched side and fought for the great Khans, later they swore allegiance to the great Il khan. The principal of Fars would be a small vassal (Fars and some other province), but when the persian uprising begin (event for the Il khanate in the late 1400s) Fars could play a big role.

Te Timurids:
The Samarkand area and Afghanistan is in the vanilla game controlled by the Timurid Empire. The Tiurids came out of the Chagatai Khanate under the warlord Timur Lenk. So how should the Timurids be remodelled, should they be in at all? Or should the Chagatai Khanate be a little bigger? In that case what should we do about Afghanistan and Baluchistan? Or should the Timurids be a smaller empire (Samarkand area, Afghnistan, Baluchistan)?

The Uzbekhs:
The uzbekhs is a little islamic horde outside of the ilkhanate. (note the uzbekhs will be moved north since the Ilkhanate will own much of the old uzbekh provinces). However the Il khanate grows weaker and the kalipah in Baghdad call for jihad! The uzbekhs and the kaliphate could very well become good allies, both have their own interrest zones in the area.

The Persian Empire:
If the persian revolt is sucessful Fars should be able to become the Persian empire, with cores on all persian lands, but should the cores stretch even futher? should the persians be able to become a super power, or just a medium sized power that block the way for The Kaliphate and the uzbekhs. If Persia is to become a great power, where should it be able to expand? India? Afghanistan? Central Asia? The Levant? Anatolia? Ideas please!

Nestorianism:
Nestorinism will be modelled by orthodox. Will research in which areas nestorianism were strong, but I already have some ideas of a nestorian Chagatai Khanate and a nestorian Khazal horde. note that nestorian mini khanates should be able to revolt from the I lkhanate.


Zoradism: Zoradism could be shiite, since it has no real meaning in Abe, but it could also be confucianism, since that religon is going to be reworked. Any ideas?

I'd say ditch the Timurids. As for the Chagatai, you should look at the current plans for China - Calanctus's proposal included a large but decadent Mongol successor state (Yuan maybe?) controlling north-western China and part of the Chagatai corridor.

If the Uzbeks are moved further north, will they run into Ukraine at some point? Will the Uzbeks have access to the Siberian colonies? What will happen in these cases?

A Persian superpower is possible, but unlikely. Generally we're aiming for moderate powers in Abe, and I don't think Persia is likely to be an exception. I wouldn't make things too easy for them - give them Persian cores by all means, but beyond that, there has to be a reasonable justification, and an element of choosing one direction over another. Expanding westwards by more than a few provinces would basically mean conquering the Caliphate, which is also unlikely at the moment, so their likely avenues of growth are eastwards into Baluchistan, Afghanistan etc (but they're really poor), southwards into Arabia (particularly the area initially controlled by Oman) or northwards into the Uzbek lands (but that depends on how strong the Uzbeks are). They could just about go for the Caucasus as well, via Azerbaijan, but that would bring them into conflict with everyone and his dog at the moment, and so probably wouldn't be very wise.

I looked up 'Zoradism' on Google and got no hits at all. I think the standard word in English is 'Zoroastrianism'. I'd prefer to represent them as 'Confucian', as otherwise they'll just get force-converted while they're still weak. 'Shiism' can be used to represent various heretical sects within Islam, which will have followers in various places, such as Oman and maybe Indonesia. The Shiite Safavids could also be a faction in your Persian turmoil events, with some chance of forming their own country.

I think it would be good if the Persian turmoil had an unpredictable outcome, with several factions in with a chance of taking over Persia and keeping it in the long term, including:

Ilkhanate (the incumbents)
Zoroastrians
Caliphate
Safavids
Uzbeks
Nestorians

Of course, not all of these would be equally likely or easy, but it's good to cater for the possibility, eg by allowing some of these to gain cores or Persian culture under the right circumstances.

 

[ZhugeKongming]

Some sort of religious conflict between Khans would be really interesting. For example, perhaps a Moslem Central Asian Khanate would wage war against a Buddhist Il-Khanate to free their religious brethren.

 

[yourworstnightm]

I'd say ditch the Timurids. As for the Chagatai, you should look at the current plans for China - Calanctus's proposal included a large but decadent Mongol successor state (Yuan maybe?) controlling north-western China and part of the Chagatai corridor.

If the Uzbeks are moved further north, will they run into Ukraine at some point? Will the Uzbeks have access to the Siberian colonies? What will happen in these cases?

A Persian superpower is possible, but unlikely. Generally we're aiming for moderate powers in Abe, and I don't think Persia is likely to be an exception. I wouldn't make things too easy for them - give them Persian cores by all means, but beyond that, there has to be a reasonable justification, and an element of choosing one direction over another. Expanding westwards by more than a few provinces would basically mean conquering the Caliphate, which is also unlikely at the moment, so their likely avenues of growth are eastwards into Baluchistan, Afghanistan etc (but they're really poor), southwards into Arabia (particularly the area initially controlled by Oman) or northwards into the Uzbek lands (but that depends on how strong the Uzbeks are). They could just about go for the Caucasus as well, via Azerbaijan, but that would bring them into conflict with everyone and his dog at the moment, and so probably wouldn't be very wise.

I looked up 'Zoradism' on Google and got no hits at all. I think the standard word in English is 'Zoroastrianism'. I'd prefer to represent them as 'Confucian', as otherwise they'll just get force-converted while they're still weak. 'Shiism' can be used to represent various heretical sects within Islam, which will have followers in various places, such as Oman and maybe Indonesia. The Shiite Safavids could also be a faction in your Persian turmoil events, with some chance of forming their own country.

I think it would be good if the Persian turmoil had an unpredictable outcome, with several factions in with a chance of taking over Persia and keeping it in the long term, including:

Ilkhanate (the incumbents)
Zoroastrians
Caliphate
Safavids
Uzbeks
Nestorians

Of course, not all of these would be equally likely or easy, but it's good to cater for the possibility, eg by allowing some of these to gain cores or Persian culture under the right circumstances.

Ok, No Timurids, that's ok, then I just move the Chagatai Khanate westwards. I agree that Persia should not have an easy way to expand, but maybe east and north are good ways for them. i think the Safvanids could be some kind of sect that flee from Persia to Baluchistan and gradually gain power there (which will create a persian- baluchi conflict).

Uzbekhs will probably run in to Ukraine at some point, so some events should be done about that.

Since zoroastrianism seems to be the proper english name, we'll use that from now.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Since another mongol succession state will occupy the eastern part of the Chagatai corridor, the Chagatai khanate will only occupy the western part of the corridor but instead gain the Samarkand area and Afghanistan. Anyway I'm thinking of cultures, sould all turcoman tribes just have the turcoman culture, or should it be spilt up, or even more united, should all turco-mongolian tribes have the altaic culture, since they all speak altaic languages.

My own suggestion in Turkestan.
cultures: turkmenic, kipchak, uzbekh, pahto (instead of the artificial afghani culture) and uyghur(main culture of the Chagatai Khanate).

I,m thinking of making Samarkand able to revolt from the Chagatai khanate (and give the uzbekhs an early minor vassal).

 

[yourworstnightm]

Sorry for not being such active right now, has a lot of things to do and an essay to write over summer, anyway I will still research as much as I can and my next installment will probably be a suggestion of the aberrated central asian map.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Well, have been busy, but I think I have come to some kind of solution regarding religons and culture.

First religon:

Nestorianism:
Will be the dominant force in the chagatai corridor, and in nowaday Turkmenistan.
In other words:
1598 Kirgisistan
1599 Tadjikistan
1600 Tian Shan¨
1601 Dsungaria
and also:
524 Turkmenistan
523 Kara Kum

Zoroastrianism:
Has lost to islam in west Persia, still strong in east:
534 Fars
533 Isfahan
535 Hormouz
528 Lut
527 Kerman
526 Meched
1530 Khorasan
1529 Birjand

Culture:
In my mind the best way here is to split culture in mongol (mostly the dominant state culture, few provinces that acctually has this culture, could also be altai), turcoman (uzbekhs, and all other turkic tribes), persian (same as before), baluchi (mostly same as before), uyghur (chagatai corridor), pashto (south afghanistan, instead of the artificial afghani culture).

Hold afghani (pasto): 1525 Qandaharm, 1527 Kabul
North afghanistan (turcoman): 1528 Kushka, 1592 Surkhandary, 1531 Herat
also, the area around Samarkand was more turcoman than mongol, so:
1592 Samarkand, 1599 Tadjikistan and 1598 Kirgisistan should be turcoman.

Notes:
Nogai will be completely removed, uzbekh, il khanate and GH will all gobble up some territory. Concidering Bukhara as Il Khanate's capital (not necessarily in the beginning of the game). Khazaks will be removed at start, but concidering them as revolter from uzbekhs. Has decided Fars will concist of the provinces Fars and Hormouz. Next I will present my solution for the uzbekhs as well as the cultural situation in the uzbekh lands at the beginning.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Hasn't had much time, but here are some ideas about the uzbeks. I am moving the uzbeks northward, since they IRL were more north in 1419. Knowing that this isn't IRL I will comment that by moving the uzbeks north they will be like a wall protecting Siberia, a wall the Ukraine have to do something about.

The Kazaks revolted from the uzbekhs irl several times during the 1400s, and managed to create an own khanate in the north uzbek lands, forcing the uzbeks to move south. I think that the uzbeks could start in a war versus rebellious kazaks, but they will probably win this time (since I think the kazaks could be pagan), The uzbeks will move south, but this time due to a jihad called by the Kaliphate against the Il Khan. Will try to make time to post my suggestions for the map of the early uzbek khanate, but consider Nogai as ancient history, I will give their territory to the uzbeks and GH. About turcoman and mongol culture, I'm still considering a solution, but for now all turcoman people will be just turcoman (considering removing mongol culture totally, turcoman and altai will do just fine).

 

[unmerged(26209)]

An extremely interesting variant would be to have a Khazar khaganate that is still jewish http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Conversion_to_Judaism (modelled in-game by the "generic" religion that confucianism will represent) that has managed to survive due to the kabar revolt (I think it was called that) wasn't as successful as historically, and the khagan managed to keep hold on his lands at least partially. The Khazar khagante would eventually get events to change religion to some other one, or try to keep judaism, but the khazars shouldn't however be a major power, as Ukrain, Finland or whatever major power decides to colonize central Asia should be able to easily smash the khazars to pieces.

EDIT: Another possibility is that since no Islam is present, no religion converted the jewish in these lands.

 

[Incompetent]

...

Possibly, but with the Ruthenians on one side and the Mongols on the other, they're in a tough position. Perhaps we could say that Khazaria itself got conquered by the Golden Horde, but the Horde failed to convert the Khazars to Islam (or whatever), resulting in pockets of Judaism surviving in the area north of the Black Sea. It's no more anachronistic than having Buddhist Kalmuks there in 1419

 

[yourworstnightm]

Or the khans of GH and the Khazars allied, and the Khazars start as an GH vassal, anyway this should be coordinated with the group working on Ukraine since they would be in the imidiate area of ukrainan expansion.

 

[yourworstnightm]

Finally got time to work a little bit on this. As I mentioned the uzbeks both in rl and here in abe will be moved north, since they hadn't began their southern expansion yet. In rl they moved since the uzbeks revolted and chased them away, here the uzbeks will be revolting in the beginning of 1419, but they will be easily defeated (and they will be pagan, so they're easy annexed).

Uzbeks will start with the following provinces:
1536 Nura
579 Karaganda
517 Turgai
520 Bouzatchi
519 Emba
516 Aralsk
515 Alga

The revolting Khazaks will controll the following provinces:
1535 Karsak
1534 Kyzulkum
518 Ust Urt

Golden Horde will gain the provinces of
514 Irgiz
513 Orsk
And Nogai will be removed.
Sibir will not be changed, not important faction.
Uzbekh start like all other steppe nations in the exotic tech group, and have to be moved to the moslem tech group through som events, probably after the jihad events I am planning.

The religous setup in the uzbekh land will be moslem provinces in west and pagan in east.
Pagan:
3 khazak provinces
Turgai
Karaganda
Nura
Moslem:
Bouzatchi
Emba
Aralsk
Alga

As it seems now Uzbeks will be a close ally to the Kaliphate and not be included in the islamic reformation events, the uzbeks will instead be a moslem counterforce to the nestorian, buddhistic and zoroastrian schools in Central Asia. Also blocking the way to Siberia forcing them in to conflict with Ukraine.

Will take a look at monarchs and leaders next. Also start with the gigantic project; Il khanate, their vassals and revolters and of course ideas how it will be fragmented and possibly how it can survive. I'm also considering a rework on my earlier suggestion on nestorian provinces (Concidering a major nestorian revolter).

 

[unmerged(23409)]

I know that this isn't about Religion, but it's the closest thread I can find that deals with what I'm talking about.

Read this: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=204029

In 1400, Timur begins a campaign to invade and conquer China, when he arrives he finds the Middle Kingdom locked in a bloddy Civil War between Zhu Yunwen (Jianwen Emperor) and Zhu Di (the future Yongle Emperor). Blah blah blah, Timur wins, abberated history!

Or, if we are doing the Il-Khanate, it could be one of the Khans instead.