The moment you restrict doomstacks.....

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Fawks

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First, technological advantages are already directly reflected in fleet power. When I say size, that's what I'm referring to, not the total number of ships.

Second, there exists no mechanic to represent veteran crews. I think it could be an interesting addition, although given the way combat works in Stellaris, this will just end up buffing the big empires more (because they will have far, far more surviving veteran crews than anyone else).


Your premise was, to effect, "the larger empire with the larger fleet always wins."

Even in the real world, that's just not true, and I only gave a handful out of hundreds or maybe even thousands of possible real world example scenarios as to why that is.
 
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Fawks

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300 spartans? :)

Well, in the real world those Spartans had about 8,000 slave soldiers with them - and they still lost. :/

Here's a few hints (in no particular order): Conquistadors, the British Empire, The Cradle of Civilization, Nazis, & 'Murica.
 

The Founder

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I don't want to spoil the surprise, but every single example I gave is a Real Thing that Actually Happened in the Real World.

;)

Well, in the real world those Spartans had about 8,000 slave soldiers with them - and they still lost. :/

Here's a few hints (in no particular order): Conquistadors, the British Empire, The Cradle of Civilization, Nazis, & 'Murica.
Give me the specific examples and I will show you how the specifics of the terrain or other secondary effects made that feasible.
While also explaining you why they will not work in Space, where there is not nearly the same terrain to use.

The battle of Thermopylae worked exactly on that one spot. And only because the Persian Navy was spinning it's wheels too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae#Greek_army
 

rcasale

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We should be less concerned about the battles themselves, and more about the economic situations around them. An economically more productive society (and this includes technology) will defeat less economically productive societies, always (extended occupation is an entirely different matter). Very rarely, two equally matched societies will fight it out and then things like tactics and strategy might play a much much larger role.

In Stellaris as it stands, bigger is always better. And it's always economically viable to conquer another nation. If this were not the case, then you would run into situation where you may be the biggest empire in the galaxy, but not every nation will be a target simply because the gains would not be worth the cost. Or you may decide to go for a white peace in some situations because the war is becoming too costly for what you stand to gain.
 
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Give me the specific examples and I will show you how the specifics of the terrain or other secondary effects made that feasible.
While also explaining you why they will not work in Space, where there is not nearly the same terrain to use.

The battle of Thermopylae worked exactly on that one spot. And only because the Persian Navy was spinning it's wheels too:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Thermopylae#Greek_army
I'm more interested in laughing at the idea of just the conquistadors bringing down the Aztec empire. Really they were a rallying point and a stiffener for an indigenous army, without which they would have been summarily crushed.
 
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pieman

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First, technological advantages are already directly reflected in fleet power. When I say size, that's what I'm referring to, not the total number of ships.

Second, there exists no mechanic to represent veteran crews. I think it could be an interesting addition, although given the way combat works in Stellaris, this will just end up buffing the big empires more (because they will have far, far more surviving veteran crews than anyone else).

Admirals are already somewhat of a representation of veterancy as well. At least until they die and their entire chain of command turns back into scrubs.
 
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pieman

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We should be less concerned about the battles themselves, and more about the economic situations around them. An economically more productive society (and this includes technology) will defeat less economically productive societies, always (extended occupation is an entirely different matter). Very rarely, two equally matched societies will fight it out and then things like tactics and strategy might play a much much larger role.

In Stellaris as it stands, bigger is always better. And it's always economically viable to conquer another nation. If this were not the case, then you would run into situation where you may be the biggest empire in the galaxy, but not every nation will be a target simply because the gains would not be worth the cost. Or you may decide to go for a white peace in some situations because the war is becoming too costly for what you stand to gain.

Some sort of trade system that gets more lucrative over time (maybe linked to trust) would be a good way to simulate powerful empires that have more to gain from continued peace than war.
 
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Jularbo Kizn

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Well, in the real world those Spartans had about 8,000 slave soldiers with them - and they still lost. :/

Here's a few hints (in no particular order): Conquistadors, the British Empire, The Cradle of Civilization, Nazis, & 'Murica.

Not to mention about 5000 Athenian soldiers. That Objectivist Frank Miller Movie is awesome Music video but it's historical correct as the elder protocols of Zion. Still though the end point is still valid, the only thing that matters is that few stood against many.
 
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The Founder

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Some sort of trade system that gets more lucrative over time (maybe linked to trust) would be a good way to simulate powerful empires that have more to gain from continued peace than war.
But that would mean we first need a way to win, using pacfist game mechanics.

I think I see signs for that already. The action based Ethos System. Combined with Traditions that you invest in. Combined with Empire Ethocs being changeable.
For me that looks like a way for a realy successfull Pacifit empire to deafeat thier Militarist enemy simply by being unassailible.

I thought about something like that - by making Ethos divergence based on Proximity to a successfull pacifist Empire ("hey it works for them, maybe we should do it too?").
 

Ingros

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What about happiness malus if you leave a system undefended... needed fighting power is scaling with the overall fighting power...
For a short period you may gather your fleets but production will go zero if you leave the system...
Add pirat marouder spawn events to undefended systems and you cant doomstack all the time
Of course the AI wont support this :-/
 

The Founder

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What about happiness malus if you leave a system undefended... needed fighting power is scaling with the overall fighting power...
For a short period you may gather your fleets but production will go zero if you leave the system...
Add pirat marouder spawn events to undefended systems and you cant doomstack all the time
Of course the AI wont support this :-/
They did something like this in Sword of the Stars 1+2 with Trading mechanic. In the end it was just a resource sink with a lot of micro, that you wish you had something like the Sector AI for.
 

I am Sovereign

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I would wish the difference in tech level would make that kind of impact.

If a empire is several tech levels ahead of another it should like be like indian tribe charging against a gatling gun. Would also help tall empires if they would get a real and siginificant science bonus (not that what currently have which is with just 3 labs on each planet no penalty for wide ones)
 

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I would wish the difference in tech level would make that kind of impact.

If a empire is several tech levels ahead of another it should like be like indian tribe charging against a gatling gun. Would also help tall empires if they would get a real and siginificant science bonus (not that what currently have which is with just 3 labs on each planet no penalty for wide ones)
You did read the Development Diary regarding Traditions, right? Because unity is just such a buff to Tall empires.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...aris-dev-diary-55-unity-and-traditions.988693

We have to look how it works out in practice with the totally reworked meta. And we can only do that after the patch is in Beta/Out.
 
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I am Sovereign

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You did read the Development Diary regarding Traditions, right? Because unity is just such a buff to Tall empires.
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...aris-dev-diary-55-unity-and-traditions.988693

We have to look how it works out in practice with the totally reworked meta. And we can only do that after the patch is in Beta/Out.

Yeah I read it duh.

But it has to be seen if that is enough to bring them to a decent level. Such a buff? The hype is real.
And even if that changes nothing on my opinion that differences in the tech level should create greater difference in power.
 
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But that would mean we first need a way to win, using pacfist game mechanics.

I think I see signs for that already. The action based Ethos System. Combined with Traditions that you invest in. Combined with Empire Ethocs being changeable.
For me that looks like a way for a realy successfull Pacifit empire to deafeat thier Militarist enemy simply by being unassailible.

I thought about something like that - by making Ethos divergence based on Proximity to a successfull pacifist Empire ("hey it works for them, maybe we should do it too?").

While this looks good on paper, I'd rather that the AI react to any nation that is about to win. At the moment the only way for them to do so is via military. Perhaps if economic mechanisms come into play and espionage then they might have other outlets to foil your win. But in the meantime you should really expect to be attacked if your pacifist nation is on the verge of victory.
 

Geoarrge

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i like the idea of having some modest incentive to divide the fleet between multiple admirals, perhaps some multiplier to the admiral's bonuses that's inversely proportional to the size of the fleet, in proportion to total naval capacity.
 

Trooper0102

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My idea to solve deathstacks is a bit simpler, and includes using things already in-game as they are.

So there's Nebula right? -50% travel speed through the affected area.
FTL Inhibitors; They draw in fleets from FTL, and debuff retreat time and jump time.

What I'd like to see, is the FTL inhibitors lose the magnet, but gain system wide effect (Preferably to sensor range, much like a nebula.)
For example System A has a Defense Outpost with an FTL inhibitor. Enemy Fleet A (Say, a doomstack) arrives at system A. First- their transition to System A is slowed as soon as they hit sensor range for the system. In the case of Wormholes, they suffer an additional 400% wind-up time to the system. Then, once there, they suffer 400% FTL Windup to leave the system.

Now, you're probably wondering how this would defeat doomstacks?
It doesn't. It's not meant to. The issue isn't weather or not doomstacks need to be gotten rid of, concentration of force, afterall, is a valid tactic. What this change is proposed to do, is encourage a reason to USE anything else than a Doomstack.

For example; 2 empires of relative strength whom each have total coverage of their territory with inhibitors go to war.
Both empires send their fleets to a single place as a doomstack, one side getting annihilated in the process.
What changes is that the empire who was DESTROYED now has breathing room to rebuild, and counter attack due to the massive slow-down of travel from one system to the next.
The empire who WON the deathbrawl may or may-not have to rebuild some, but can use this time to carve into the cloud of inhibitors, with the optimal strategy being to split up their fleet into raiding parties.
With the doom stack split into parties, they can be hunted down individually until the natural reaction is to retreat and gather strength back. It would extend wars and soften that crushing defeat of doomstack vs doomstack.
 
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lebigmac

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supply lines for fleets make no sense in a space 4x game. Far too advanced tech required for space flight, let alone space combat, to realistically consider supply reinforcement an issue.

If being able to defend against a larger opponent is a problem, then add things to the game that promote tall play, or make space stations stronger. This doesnt combat doom stacks per se, but it does provide a solution to the "we need supply lines so we can attack a stronger opponent via them".

As for anti-doomstack measures, I like the idea of more aoe options (mines, or ship weapons), or limitations based on admiral rank.

Space station aura modules could also be extended to cover whole system with no graphic (too laggy). This would further increase home-field advantage.
 
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