The Missionary Position

[Owl]

.... by which I mean, of course, what is the position with regard to "converting the heathen" and other popular recreations of the Victorian age?

Religion was not quite the force it had been in the EU era, but it was still a factor in political and economic life.

I thought the idea of converting provinces in EU2, while entertaining in a game sense, was flawed in concept. One didn't convert whole provinces at a time with 100% success / failure as the only possible outcomes. For Victoria I'd like to see something a bit more subtle and lifelike - maybe adding more missionaries over time, having a gradual effect on the population .. say Province X starts out 70% pagan, 20% Sunni, 10% Christian, colonial nation Y takes control, sends missionaries and over the next 20 years increases the Christian proportion to 20%.

Thoughts?

 

[Generalisimo]

yes, i will like something like that...
the EU2 system was "weird".
... and sometimes annoying.

 

[unmerged(1057)]

Owl..hilarious.. hmm..."more old than wise"..ok..

 

[Caliga]

Although culture surely must be in this game, and probably needs to be modeled with more complexity than in EU2, I can see it working fine without religion as a factor, except indirectly as it makes up a portion of culture.

 

[irishpony]

It shouldnt be able to be done any way very few places changed religion that were already established.

and if it were to be in here any way it should be like in medieval total war where the missionary continued to convert and use up money until you cancel it

 

[Owl]

Originally posted by Wasa
Owl..hilarious.. hmm..."more old than wise"..ok..

More smartass than either, my wife would say ....

 

[kurtbrian]

Originally posted by Owl
More smartass than either, my wife would say ....

But would she be right....?

 

[unmerged(5664)]

I guess you think you're pretty clever with that thread title...

 

[Dark Knight]

Please stay on topic.

 

[unmerged(9563)]

Cool title, and I think that conversions and culture changes should take change at a slow pace -- Russia owned much of the steppes for the whole time and they're definately not Russian now.

 

[unmerged(7537)]

I don't think religion in general and specifically missionaries were that important in the Victorian era.

Except, of course, as an excuse for colonial expansion...

 

[unmerged(5367)]

On the contrary i think religion mattered a great deal, not just for wars but for internal stability.

And in the forming of nationality, religion most certainly mattered. But then we have been assured religion is an issue

 

[unmerged(8303)]

Originally posted by BarristerBoy
I guess you think you're pretty clever with that thread title...

hilarious.

I think in Africa religious changes should be modeled but on the continent it should be almost completely static. I can't think of any cases in this time period where the religion of a region changed without a complete deportation of the locals.

also i hope religion wont be as important a factor in stability, as the multi religious/culture really killed Russia in Eu2. Well not kiled but hurt a bit because they couldnt tolerate all their religions or convert areas.

and also because they lost income for any non culture, non orthodox regions.

 

[unmerged(10868)]

also i hope religion wont be as important a factor in stability, as the multi religious/culture really killed Russia in Eu2. Well not kiled but hurt a bit because they couldnt tolerate all their religions or convert areas.

Maybe a slider going between state religion/religious freedom with various degrees of oppression between.

Nationalism should be the big thing in this period. The colonial powers did try to convert the natives, but it wasn't the reason for being there, and most likely didn't care as long as they still got the benefits of a colony.

So Russia should be able to try to turn everyone into Christians, or not care and just try to turn them into Russians.

 

[unmerged(5664)]

Originally posted by JPesterfield
Nationalism should be the big thing in this period. The colonial powers did try to convert the natives, but it wasn't the reason for being there, and most likely didn't care as long as they still got the benefits of a colony.

Don't entirely disagree. Trying to convert the "natives" was a significantconcern, but was usually the domain of private missionary groups, not the government. Thw Canadian west was the "frontier" in this period, and I know that all the major denominations in Canada had very big conversion efforts amongst the native population. And in the end those efforts were almost entirely successful (until attemps to bring back native spirituality in the 1960s).

 

[stnylan]

I think conversions ought to be handled indirectly for the most part - so that for example you can 'sponsor' private missionary efforts but have little direct control.

After all governments were perfectly happy to encourage missionary activity even if they rarely took a direct hand.

 

[Mohe]

Another Missionary issue is that indigenous hostility to missionaries often lead to conflict with European powers. This was the immediate cause of much European territorial expansion. And even when it wasn't wars, especially in Asia.

France, and an avowedly anti clerical France at that, used it's self appointed role as protector of christians to involve itself not just in the Levant, but in the conquest of Cochin and the absorption of Indochina into the French Empire, it was used as a cassus belli with china on at least two occassions and also led to France being the chief European party interested in Korea, but by this point Japan was too strong.

And it wasn't just the French piety as a reason for conquest, the protection of "christianizing and civilizing" efforts was probably the largest source of popular approval for empire at home for colonizing powers.

Maybe missionaries if represented should represent not so much conversion but maybe some sort change of culture, because not all "missionary" activity was really religious in nature, but more involving modernisation. Japanese attempts (during game period no less) to begin transformation of the Taiwanese into devoted subjects of the Emperor for example involved such things as mandatory hygene classes, and a surprisingly large portion of missionary activity in the British Empire was the result of Catholic efforts, not protestant.

 

[Owl]

*bump*

for Hardu ...

perhaps these threads could be merged to avoid repetition.