The Military System, Its Flaws, and Some Solutions

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Kwami

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The biggest problem that I have with the combat system is the retreat. Last night, I was fighting a group of rebels. After I beat them, they fled to the next province. I immediately paused the game when I saw the battle completion screen and moved my troops to follow them. I arrived three days after they did, but by then they had already recovered their morale. I won again, they fled again, I chased again, and this process repeated for about ten battles before I finally just gave up. They were impossible to kill!
 

nijis

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Historically up until the mid 18th century, the further a marching army was from home, the fewer men it lost to non-disease/non-battle causes.

Does Creveld say that? I have the book and I don't recall him making such a sweeping statement. He emphasizes that armies needed to keep moving, but that's not the same thing. Yes, desertion would be easier closer to home, but deserters had greater reason to leave the more tenuous the army's survival was.

You're right about the sutlers, for some campaigns -- although in many cases, unless you're organizing markets where farmers voluntarily come, a promissory note is little better than pillage with a receipt. And there are cases of Louis XIV's armies simply pillaging their own territory even in peacetime.

But at any rate, whether you buy food from willing sellers or force them to give it up, it's always going to be easier in friendly territory. No army is going to starve when there's grain in civilian barns nearby, regardless of their relationship to the owner.



First off you would have plenty of battles in the early era where you have either staked ground defending elite long bowmen which would massacre anything but extremely heavily armored knights.

These cases are the celebrated exceptions, and the three most famous ones -- Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt -- all happened after a long chase through the larger side's territory and several operational errors by the smaller side, to my recollection.



I should add another reason to give provinces some ability to defeat or attrit invading armies, buff the defense, and make it more difficult to hunt down and intercept armies: Right now, the best military strategy in the same is to track down and destroy the enemy army, then carpet-siege -- lots of small sieges simultaneously. I can't think of a single historical campaign that fits this picture.
 

Jomini

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Does Creveld say that? I have the book and I don't recall him making such a sweeping statement. He emphasizes that armies needed to keep moving, but that's not the same thing. Yes, desertion would be easier closer to home, but deserters had greater reason to leave the more tenuous the army's survival was.

You're right about the sutlers, for some campaigns -- although in many cases, unless you're organizing markets where farmers voluntarily come, a promissory note is little better than pillage with a receipt. And there are cases of Louis XIV's armies simply pillaging their own territory even in peacetime.

But at any rate, whether you buy food from willing sellers or force them to give it up, it's always going to be easier in friendly territory. No army is going to starve when there's grain in civilian barns nearby, regardless of their relationship to the owner.





These cases are the celebrated exceptions, and the three most famous ones -- Crecy, Poitiers and Agincourt -- all happened after a long chase through the larger side's territory and several operational errors by the smaller side, to my recollection.



I should add another reason to give provinces some ability to defeat or attrit invading armies, buff the defense, and make it more difficult to hunt down and intercept armies: Right now, the best military strategy in the same is to track down and destroy the enemy army, then carpet-siege -- lots of small sieges simultaneously. I can't think of a single historical campaign that fits this picture.

Remember in this era, battle deaths are the minority of losses. Desertion much more commonly came from lack of pay and lack of food. Both of these problems could be more easily solved by finding nice enemy territory to pillage. While armies would revolt over lack of food or lack of pay, doing so is a pretty dicey affair and while you might deride promissary notes as pillage with a receipt, there was much greater restraint by armies using it than those who did straight up pillaging. Further, the big reason to avoid a lot of provisioning efforts at home is because those activities provide an excellent chance to desert.

Another good read is Conscripts and Deserters, it is fairly clear that desertion gets ever harder the deeper the army goes into enemy territory. Now if you aren't paying your army or if you are fighting at poor odds, desertion increases, but those are not a priori related to how deep you are enemy territory. What does happen as you plunder your way deeper into enemy territory is that you become more hated and deserters are more likely to be killed by vengeful peasants. In home territory you had many more worries about desertion, many more worries about nobles taking issue with your appropriation, and the fact that the officers often had orders to enforce about not pillaging the peasants to the point of starvation.

Going deep into virgin territory simply should not result in more casualties from a historical standpoint. Looking at the journals of people like Marlborough, they never experienced a notable increase in attrition - in spite of jumping off from the Netherlands and going all through Bavaria (enemy territory).

Defense in depth just wasn't a real popular strategy in this era. It was costly, it created all manner of local strongholds for potential rebellions, it expected enemy armies to move deep into home territory (which very rarely happened outside of rebellions). All of the things that make defense in depth effective are much more modern products - things needing to keep close to munition supplies (needs reliance on factory made munitions), home supply of food (needs rail as pointed out by Van Creveld), regular shifting of troops to & from the front (needs rail or motorized transport), fuel supply (mechanization), etc. Defense in depth just doesn't generate major difficulties when you can live off virgin land (as shown by Sherman, Marlborough, Napoleon, etc.).

As far as long bow battles, those were the exceptions insofar as the only major user of this tactic was mainly used by the English. Staked longbows were seen by mercenary companies in Italy and Germany in the previous century, but were falling out of favor by the EUIV period. Nonetheless, we should see at least a few battles where well emplaced elite troops fight in small numbers against superior numbers.

Carpet sieging only occurs because the only thing that really matters to warscore is holding territory. If France wants to take Modena, then it has to siege not just Modena, but a lot of other territory. The historical option of siege Modena, beat back relief, and then take Modena just doesn't give enough warscore. The AI will see its big army as powerful, and the player as not making gains. Yes ticking warscore helps, but that still takes much longer than killing the army and splitting down sieges.

Every buff to the besieger just makes the gains to be had from killing his field army bigger. If I might have sallies, then I REALLY need to kill the field army so I can siege in peace. Now warscore is even harder to get and I will have to detach more of my manpower to get it with sieges. This makes the benefit of killing the field army higher - before I could keep a checking army & say 4 sieges, now I can keep a checking army and say 1-2 sieges. While carpet sieges are more costly, they are relatively much better than a checking army.

Bluntly, if you can't get what you want from the peace table more efficiently than beating down the field army first - players will always beat down the field armies first. If you want competitive AIs they will need to emulate player tactics (e.g. Hunter-Killer stacks), which will mean the AIs also follow ahistorical strategy. If you want historical tactics, you will need to be able to get good return in peace deals without having to first kill the field army. That just isn't possible with the overreliance on sieges for war score.
 
Last edited:

General Baker

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If any thread ever needed attention from the Paradox EUIV dev team, it's this one. There's nothing I can't, to various extents, agree to here.
 

SteamSpud

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Great stuff guys..Hoping paradox is reading this thread. Also hope the patch in some changes to the siege mechanics soon..
My mighty mighty Incans are building up forts all along the North coast of S. America. Thought was they would slow down European invaders some. But as it stands yeah..I may be wasting time/money because they will just carpet siege and walk all over me.
 

Damarow

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Pretty much agree with OP.

If any thread ever needed attention from the Paradox EUIV dev team, it's this one. There's nothing I can't, to various extents, agree to here.
and that.

Its unlikely that the official devs will change the system though, maybe the MEIOU and Taxes Mod would incorporate that?
 
Last edited:

Jorgen_CAB

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On the other hand, providing more methods for keeping armies alive would make the game easier for new players as it would be harder for them to lose everything by making a simple mistake.



Which is entirely different from, for instance, setting up ambushes at river crossings or mountain passes, which is what the defensive bonuses are meant to represent. The besieging army is tied down at the site of the siege, unable to use any of the province's natural advantages because they have to sit in one precarious spot around the fortress. Field fortifications are normal for both sides to make use of (look at Peter's strategy at Poltava for an excellent example) so the fact that besiegers had them doesn't make it any different. The key element of this is that a large portion of the besieging army cannot join battle with the relief army since they're sitting in the trenches, so it makes no sense that the game treats them as if they're positioned in tactically beneficial parts of the province, 100% ready for battle, and simultaneously besieging the fort with their full strength.

Yes, this would be an important change because playing with a country as your example Switzerland is very ahistorical. As the game work right now, defensive terrain is more useful to an attacker than the defender. This is completely ahistorical in so many ways. You should of course be able to lift a siege if you spot a relief army and meet them on the battle field if you really want to but then you loose all the progress on that siege and you should not be able to do this in a day or two.

Another problem that I have with games of this type are that units react to order as it they were all psychically linked. There should perhaps be a period of time before you give an order until it is carried out, this would work well if armies could evade enemy armies. The larger the army the longer it will take for them to respond to new orders. There should just be a small order clock ticking down until they start moving to their new destination.

And then, of course, a larger army should move much slower than a small army. An army of 1000 should practically be impossible to engage in combat with an army of 20000 unless they can somehow be cornered into fighting. I don't care if people complain about ping pong armies. Smaller armies should as as you say be able to take refuge in forts. Sure a 50000 men army can not take refuge in a fort with 2000 defenders.

I have modded the looting penalty to reduce supply in a province with about -25% and the looting stay for 12 months while scorched earth stay for 48 months and reduce the supply by 50%. I have also lowered the supply over all in my game and also the increase in supply efficiency overall. That means that moving a large army deep into enemy territory is a dangerous prospect and will give lots and lots of attrition and war-exhaustion. Some of these things can be modded. I just wish armies could evade combat, that would make the war part of the game so much more fun and also give smaller nations a fighting chance.
 
Last edited:

Jorgen_CAB

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1. During the EU era going deeper into enemy territory tended to lessen attrition rather than increase it. This is the age of armies marching on requisition and plunder, in home territory you normally couldn't just pillage the country side, but you could easily do it in enemy territory. Remember at this point armies typically only need powder, shot, and food to keep moving. Of those, food is found by moving into new farmland, shot is reusable/recastable, and powder can even be recovered from enemy supplies.

In later periods when army sizes grown they could rely less and less on looting and foraging the land and had to expand the area to provide for their armies. Organizing large supply armies became more and more common as time went on. This also meant that armies speed of movement reduced and providing for food an supplies was as important as actually fighting the enemy. It was basically logistically a nightmare to move an army of 50000 men for extended periods of time. Armies often had to be divided into subsection and dispersed and later reconvened when they tried to get into a decisive battle with the enemy.

I'm certainly no expert but desertion was obviously a problem but not as big a problem as hunger/decease or pure fatigue. Desertion could obviously be a side effect of these other causes as an extension and desertion in the home country is a point but I don't believe it is an important one.
 

macd21

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So, how about: lower war score gained from non-wargoal provinces, increase warscore from winning battles, but less/none from a 'beaten' army (one that is recovering), increase the cost to take a non-goal province. So basically the ideal strategy is to go in, drive off the defending army and then siege the wargoal. Taking other provinces or hunting down the enemy doesn't really get you anything. I also think that the length of a siege should be very much tied to the number of besiegers, so that carpet sieging is suboptimal is it will take much longer for small stacks to take a few provinces than for a big stack to take one.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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What you can do and what I have done is increase the ticking warscore and the warscore you get from combat. You can also raise the maximum you can get from them both.

I will test my current settings, but I believe that wars can be shorter if you are winning battles with my current changes. And if you also hold the war goal the war should be over quite soon.

Wars can still drag out if battles are won and lost on both sides. Taking actual control of provinces should not really be all that important if you compare it to battles and war-exhaustion.
 

marmot01

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I was barely able to read through the whole thread because I couldn't wait to post :) I've noticed (some of) the same game mechanics inaccuracies, as far as my knowledge of the period allows and from modding possibilities perspective, adjusting warscore seems to be the cleanest way to go.
 

parachute

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For gameplay reasons, we need a way to weaken attackers/blobs and strengthen defenders/smaller countries.

Suggestions:

1) Provide some combat bonus for the defending country (discipline)
2) Increase manpower regain for the defending country
3) Increase army upkeep costs for attackers
4) Introduce a cost in monarch points for attackers
5) Make it so that number of provinces is NOT = army strength (a 10 province country should not be able to field (or maintain) a 10x stronger army).
5) Emphasize the whole "Casus Belli" idea. Some wars (Reconquest) should be easier than wars of pure aggression.

Currently the game design leads to easy conquest but difficulties in holding on to it (rebellions, over extension, religion/culture malus). This means that the conquering country has to pay for the war AFTER new territory has been acquired. However, at this point the defending country has already been destroyed (manpower depleted, army stacks wiped out, high war exhaustion, etc.). Some default bonus for the defenders could help to slow down blobbing and help smaller powers to maintain some significance.
 

EnderV

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On the attrition - attrition heavily depended on the territory. If you're going through rich Bavarian countryside, it's a private's heaven come early.
If you're going through a looted/burned down Ukrainian steppe in autum/winter, you're going to eat grass - if you can find and - and pray.

When Bohemia/parts of Germany was repeatedly looted in 30 years war, there just wasn't anything for the army to loot anymore. Foraging was, for all terms and purposes, impossible.

That said, I agree that right now WS depends pretty much on besieged provinces. While those should add to the value (indeed, often capturing the capital and nothing else stopped the war), WE should be the primary reason why wars end (short of taking capital).

Looting should increase WE much more than it does now. Right now, fighting a lots of wars, I have to say I failed to even notice the impact of looting on my provinces. Looted province should kill taxes, production and trade - for an extended period of time. That in turn should incresae WE quite a bit. In fact, nothing created so much desire for peace (amongst the populace, burgers and minor nobility) than a property looted there and back again.
 

Jorgen_CAB

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What specific changes have you made?

There are too many to really say. But you can look at the Default.lua file that have most of the value for how the warscore is handled in regards to battle and how the AI view war-exhaustion in peace negotiations.

What I have done which seems to work fine so far is to make war-exhaustion a much bigger factor in what the AI value as a negative in a peace deal. So, an aggressive AI will eventually accept peace if its war-exhaustion in starting to grow to bad. This has led to nations not spinning out of control as badly through extreme prestige loss and war-exhaustion and nations being overall more stable.

You could also at this stage give higher penalties on the war-exhaustion, such as higher revolt-risk and other penalties (found in the Static_Modifiers file). I have for example added a very small inflation modifier to war exhaustion as well as a slight increase in revolt risks. This will actually even deter myself from running my war-exhaustion too high. I also made it slightly more expensive to lower it with ADM points as well. Mainly to also give a high incentive to me as a player not to wage total war all the time but to manage my war more sensibly.

In addition to this I have lowered the speed of all land units to about one quarter of their normal speed. This will symbolise the difficulties in communication, foraging and logistical problems armies have to endure during this time. Armies can just react to threats and change theatre too quickly. The AI actually do a very good job with these lower speeds and I have made combat take a while longer by increasing the tactic and morale score somewhat, tactics slightly more than morale.

There are more changes I have made, but these are what comes to mind.

These changes has lead to many more wars ending in white peace, money being paid or treaties annulled, cores revoked, nations released and stuff like that. Not every war ends with actual concession or annexation any more.
Wars including large alliances will usually ending up with countries beaten up leaving the alliance and often very few changes actually being made in the end, often on both sides. War-exhaustion is usually pretty high for everyone in these circumstances.

I'm pretty sure that more experienced modders than me will come up with something more extensive down the line using something similar of what I have done.
 
Last edited:

FearTheAmish

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Completely agree with the part about fortifications for a large portion of this games time period primary warfare was foraging from the countryside and seigecraft. The War for the independence of the Netherlands is a great example of this. Armies fighting in the open field were not the norm but the exception during this time period. The problem comes in with how to make this not boring... because it is.