• Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
The Middle Kingdom: A Sinocentric China AAR [Complete]

Hello everyone, welcome to my first ever AAR, a Chinese Empire AAR.

Mods Used:
Total Wars for Victoria 2 (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?537882-MiniMod-Great-Wars-for-Victoria-2)
Custom: I made a few minor changes to the history files in favor of realism. The main changes include: Egypt starts with a slightly stronger starting position, China has Mongol as an accepted culture, Ottoman Empire has cores on Greece, and Greece starts allied to Russia, France, and the UK, as well as a few other minor differences.

Introduction

The Chinese Empire has a truly unique position in history. China dominated East Asian politics for centuries through its immense size and Sinocentric tributary state model, and was at the heart of world civilization and technological advancement for centuries. With it immense population and vast size, China's potential is truly limitless.

However, in 1836 Qing China is in a tenuous position. Qing China has fallen far behind the West in technology, and with horrendously low literacy that will be difficult to change. Worse, Qing China starts with a far too small bureaucracy that has made tax collection difficult and sorely strained the Qing budget, due to the Qing Empire's failure to keep the size of its bureaucracy at pace with population growth. Meanwhile, resentment is growing against the oppressive Manchu elite.

Worst of all, for the first time in its history, China faces a truly existential threat. Before, China's vast size and central importance to East Asian politics ensured that any conquering empire that managed to subjugate China would themselves become China in the process, be it the Mongol Yuan dynasty or the Manchu Qing dynasty themselves. But the invasions of industrialized European and westernized Japanese armies changed all that, and created the ever-present fear that China would suffer the same fate as India before it - and be wholly consumed into the various colonial empires.

In history, while China managed to survive despite the odds, the Qing regime failed to deal proactively with these problems successfully. Between invasions by far superior Western and Japanese armies that left the Qing regime's prestige in shambles and utterly destroyed the Sinocentric tributary model, mediocre emperors that failed to provide dynamic central leadership in this time of crisis, constant anti-Manchu rebellions, and finally the reactionary coup that overthrew Emperor Guangxi after his ambitious reform program, the Chinese Empire continued to decline until Qing China finally collapsed into the warlord era. China would not truly be reunited and freed from European dominance until Mao, and wouldn't really succeed in becoming an industrialized superpower until recent years.

This AAR is meant to explore an alternate history in which the Daoguang Emperor's reign proved more successful, and embarked China on a path of reform and modernization. Note that I will be roleplaying as Qing China to the best of my ability, so expect me to frequently refer to Europeans as “barbarians,” and so forth. China at this time was extremely ethnocentric, and at least until they lost the Opium Wars, referred to Europeans as barbarians. If this offends you, apologies, I recommend reading a different AAR.

We start with an alternate history justification for this. Historically, Jahangir Khoja led a rebellion in Xinjiang against Chinese rule with enormous early successes. However, in real life history, the rebellion was crushed after the Daoguang Emperor sent a large army to crush it.

In the alternate history, the Russian Empire, sensing Chinese weakness, decided to send large amounts of military aid and advisors to Jahangir Khoja. Jahangir Khoja rapidly modernized his military forces with Napoleonic-era Russian equipment and tactics, and met with such enormous victories using superior Russian firearms, that he declared himself Khan and conquered deep into the heart of China. By 1834, he marched on Beijing itself, to the shock of all. His actions forced the Emperor himself to take command of the hastily rebuilt Qing armed forces, after several of China's most prestigious generals met with catastrophic failure in the first few years of war.

However, Jahangir Khoja had overreached himself with such an ambitious march, and the Qing forces under the Emperor's command managed to at least partially adapt to their Napoleonic-era tactics and weaponry. Ultimately, Jahangir Khoja's army was surrounded, cut off from further Russian military aid, and in early 1835, he was beheaded after his army surrendered. With him dead, his remaining armies quickly surrendered or were destroyed.

In 1836, the Qing empire is at peace again, and has mostly recovered from the rebellion. But the Daoguang Emperor knows from personal experience that the European barbarians possess an enormous advantage, and that he must take proactive measures against this ever-present threat, or the Qing Dynasty was likely doomed. Chinese isolationism and technological backwardness must come to an end.

The objective of this AAR? Playing as China, modernize and overthrow the Concert of Europe's colonial Great Powers, and build a new world order centered around Chinese hegemony.

Table of Contents:

Act I - The Return of China, From Weakness to Glory (1836 - 1883)
Part 1: An End to Isolationism
Part 2: The Panjabi War
Part 3: The Panjabi Mountain Campaign
Part 4: The Partition of Panjab and Kashmir
Part 5: 1843 Sino-British Treaty of London
Part 6: The New Tianxia
Part 7: The Third Manchu Invasion of Korea
Part 8: The Rice Riots
Part 9: The Vietnam War
Part 10: Treason
Part 11: The world in 1848
Part 12: The Railroad War
Part 13: The Uneasy Peace
Part 14: The Anarchy
Part 15: Fall of the Heavenly Kingdom
Part 16: The Great Qing Reconquest of China
Part 17: The Kōmei Restoration
Part 18: The First Sino-Japanese War
Part 19: The Middle Kingdom
Part 20: The Hundred Days
Part 21: The Xianfeng Era Begins
Part 22: Preparing for War
Part 23: The California Crisis
Part 24: The End of A Genocide
Part 25: The Xianfeng Peace
Part 26: The Franco-Prussian War: A Bismarckian Nightmare
Part 27: The Franco-Prussian War: A Bismarckian Nightmare, Conclusion
Part 28: The Second Great Chinese Treasure Fleet
Part 29: The Long March, Part 1
Part 30: The Long March, Part 2
Part 31: A Place In The Sun
Part 32: The Second Great Chinese Treasure Fleet, Voyage Two and the Unification of Germany
Part 33: The World In 1868
Part 34: Germany Ascends
Part 35: The Right To Publicly Assemble
Part 36: The Second Great Chinese Treasure Fleet, Voyage Three
Part 37: The Baden and Burmese Questions
Part 38: The Scramble for Africa
Part 39: The First Sinocentric War
Part 40: The Lhasa Convention of 1872
Part 41: The Tributary Network Expands
Part 42: Sino-German Friendship
Part 43: The World in 1874
Part 44: Declaration of War
Part 45: The Second Sinocentric War; Part 1, Assembly of the First Lhasa Coalition
Part 46: The Second Sinocentric War; Part 2, The Barbarian Hordes Descend
Part 47: The Second Sinocentric War; Part 3, The Bloody Advance
Part 48: The Second Sinocentric War; Part 4, The Totally Unprovoked American Aggression Against Fusang
Part 49: The Second Sinocentric War; Part 5, The Qing Victorious
Part 50: Chinese New York
Part 51: Chinese Africa
Part 52: Empress Cixi
Part 53: The Second Sino-Portuguese War Begins, and the Chinese Industrial Revolution Continues
Part 54: The Zanzibar Scandal
Part 55: Sinocentrism Spreads
Part 56: Java
Part 57: The Third Sinocentric War, Part 1: A Global War
Part 58: The Third Sinocentric War, Part 2: The Ever Victorious Army
Part 59: The Third Sinocentric War, Part 3: The Sack of Calcutta
Part 60: The Third Sinocentric War, Part 4: The Treaty of Calcutta
Part 61: The Rise of Beiyang
Part 62: Nationalism, Imperialism, and Pan-Sinism
Part 63: The Guangxu Era Begins
Part 64: Fall of the Trucial States and Electricity
Part 65: The Sino-Afghan War

Act II - The New Sinocentric World Order (1883-1904)
Part 1 (Act II): Dawn of a New Era
Part 2: Sokoto's Last Stand
Part 3: The Indian National Congress
Part 4: The Fourth and Final Sinocentric War, Part 1: The Third Lhasa Coalition
Part 5: The Fourth and Final Sinocentric War, Part 2: Indian Independence
Part 6: The Fourth and Final Sinocentric War, Part 3: The Sun Sets on the British Empire
Part 7: The Fourth and Final Sinocentric War, Part 4: The Betrayal, and the War's End
Part 8: The Sinocentric Economic Boom
Part 9: The Calm Before the Storm, Three Years of Peace
Part 10: The Great War, year 1893
Part 11: The Great War, year 1894
Part 12: The Peace to End All Peace
Part 13: The Boxer Rebellion
Part 14: The World in 1896
Part 15: The Road to WWII
Part 16: World War II, Chapter One: The War at Sea
Part 17: World War II, Chapter Two: The Western Counterattack
Part 18: World War II, Chapter 3: Budapest
Part 18: World War II, Chapter 4: Stalemate
Part 19: World War II, Chapter 5: The Abdication
Part 20: World War II, Chapter 6: The Siege of Vienna
Part 21: World War II, Chapter 7: The Eastern Counterattack
Part 22: World War II, Chapter 8: Co-Belligerents
Part 22: World War II, Chapter 9: The Battle of Britain
Part 22: World War II, Chapter 10: The Algerian Commune
Part 23: The Treaties of Beijing, 1904

Act III - Epilogue (1904-2016)
Epilogue, Part 1, A Chinese Future and Part 2, All Empires Must Fall

This AAR is complete as of 4/6/2016, and I do not intend to add any further updates. ^^ Hope you all enjoyed!
 
Last edited:
  • 1
Reactions:

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Part 1: An End to Isolationism

Today was an important day. With the hard work of rebuilding from the rebellion largely complete, the Daoguang Emperor had assembled his newly reorganized Grand Council in a secret meeting to sift through a long list of decrees the Emperor intended to enact immediately. The old guard from the Imperial Faction had been largely sacked after the disastrous rebellion; the more jingoistic Conservatives had won the Emperor's favor, as the Emperor knew this rebellion had only been the beginning.



Qing agents had been hard at work gathering intelligence and knowledge on the west in Macau from the Portugese - and from the research, the Daoguang Emperor had compiled a drastic series of steps to protect China from the enormous threat the Europeans now presented.

First, the Emperor proposed a complete restructuring of the royal budget and economic policy.



First, China's severe restrictions on trade with the Europeans would be ended immediately, and replaced with a new streamlined system of (extremely high) tariffs. Opium was to be legalized, so that domestic Chinese production might be formed to combat the inflow of foreign opium that was destroying Qing China's coffers. These reforms served a dual purpose - to drastically increase the Imperial Court's revenue, and to reduce foreign pressure from the British, which had reached a fever pitch as a result of China's perceived weakness.

Second, taxes on the Chinese people would also be increased drastically across the board, to fund a massive modernization effort. The Emperor calculated that with the Qing tax collection having become so horrendously inefficient in recent years, the hardship on the Chinese people would be minimal.

Third, the administrative budget would be cut in the short term - a massive outcry rose up against this particular declaration, as the Council members noted that the Qing administration was already woefully inefficient. However, the Emperor clarified that this would only be a temporary emergency measure to pay for his next declaration.

Fourth, and most important of all, would be a drastic increase in the Empire's education budget, paid for by the previous reforms. The Emperor announced that the Exams system would undergo a drastic restructuring and expansion, with large-scale purchases of Western books on modern military technology and science being added to the existing curricula, and with all who successfully passed the exams being eligible to receiving a sizable stipend in return for passing on their knowledge to other exam candidates. He would also personally endorse a National Focus in the capital to promote education in the Confucian classics, and in newfound Western knowledge. This would pave the way for a drastic expansion in the Chinese administration in the near future.

Just a few years ago, the Conservative council members in the room would have reacted to such proposals with open rebellion. The Emperor himself would never even have considered them - in particular the opium proposals. Even now the Emperor wished for nothing less than the complete eradication of the scourge of opium. Now, though, they all agreed, at least in private - drastic action was needed.

Finally, the Emperor unveiled an ambitious plan to reassert the Empire's prestige in the eyes of the world and in its own people - invade Panjab.



The councillors were skeptical as to the value of conquering Panjab, but the Emperor won them over. The only thing the European barbarians respected, he declared, was strength. "They have no regards for us; they name us uncivilized, see us as weak, and so seek to enforce their will upon us. We must show them we are still strong, so that they fear us." By attacking Panjab, the Emperor hoped that the British would come to fear a Chinese invasion of India, and thus refrain from starting a war. It was likely a futile gesture, but anything that bought China time to modernize was welcome.

He believed that the recently modernized Qing Empire military would make short work of Panjab, and that the experience gained in the war would aid in the modernization of the military.

And, in the end, the Council resolved to implement all the Emperor's decrees, and secretly began preparing for war with Panjab.

Justifying a war was easy - after the catastrophic insult to national prestige in the recent war, the Chinese people were hungry for conquest and glory, with overwhelming calls for military action.



With 12,000 modernized infantry armed with Russian firearms confiscated from the rebels, and a much larger force of irregulars armed with older Chinese firearms, as well as a 12,000 light cavalry for reconaissance, the Chinese Empire's armies quietly assembled in the deserts of Xinjiang in preparation for war.

The efforts to justify a war were unfortunately discovered by the Portugese, who noticed the massive firearms purchases by he Chinese government and investigated, costing China over 15 infamy. Still, by releasing Panjab, Kashmir, and Ladakh all that infamy can easily be erased.

In a more humiliating turn of events, Korea cancelled its alliance with China for unknown reasons. A grave insult to be sure, but we are in no condition to retaliate.



Regardless, the people of China were soon committed to war.



And so begins Act I - The Return of China, From Weakness to Glory.
 
Last edited:

DKM

General
54 Badges
Sep 29, 2013
2.482
509
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings Complete
I have a question for you. How come Reformists are considered Conservative while Imperialists are considered Liberals? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
I have a question for you. How come Reformists are considered Conservative while Imperialists are considered Liberals? Shouldn't it be the other way around?
I don't really understand your question, sorry. Reformists are a liberal party in the Qing Empire, the Imperial Faction are a conservative party, and the Conservatives are a reactionary party.


Did I answer your question?
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Part 2: The Panjabi War​

Finally, the grand Qing army is assembled and ready to march.





In less fortunate news the rulers of Afghanistan insult us by refusing us military access, and the British attack Panjab as well, seeking to strengthen their hold on India.

Finally, after fierce negotiations, the Afghans allow us access, and our forces begin the multi-month process of crossing the Afghan mountains into Panjab. (for those who don't know - Panjab starts with a land border with Xinjiang, but the border is made up of impassable mountains; the only easy way around them is via Afghanistan)

Less fortunately the British have already annexed Kashmir, which will reduce the amount of infamy we can reduce by releasing nations as puppets.

But finally, we engage the Panjabi armies in battle. With their armies weakened from the war with Britain, victory seemed assured, especially as they are attacking our forces in the mountains.



Unfortunately, we appear to have underestimated the Panjabi.



Reinforcements are still making their way across the mountains, so for now the Qing army falls back to Afghanistan in disarray, humiliated once more.

But there is no way the Qing generals can return to Beijing to report such a failure and survive the process, so they decide to attempt another invasion, once reinforcements from Xinjiang arrive:



And the stage is set for round two of the Chinese invasion of Panjab, spearheaded by our most elite infantry brigades.

Map of the region, after the British annexation of Kashmir:

 
Last edited:

KaiserWilhelmI

Von Hohenzollern
73 Badges
Apr 30, 2013
893
142
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
I will follow! I planned to start a Qing AAR of my own, but in the POP Demand mod it's impossible to keep the Dynasty alive as it's scripted to fall. My AAR would have been from the point of view of the great Empress Dowager Cixi, based on the book by Jung Chang.
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
I will follow! I planned to start a Qing AAR of my own, but in the POP Demand mod it's impossible to keep the Dynasty alive as it's scripted to fall. My AAR would have been from the point of view of the great Empress Dowager Cixi, based on the book by Jung Chang.
Thanks!

And yep. This is why I'm glad the Great Wars mod exists as a standalone mod.

Hope you get to do that AAR someday!
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Part 3: The Panjabi Mountain Campaign



General Fu Shangzhi's humiliating defeat at the hands of the Panjabi army had quickly made him realize, the hard way, that the Panjabi fought with incredible skill and ferocity to defend their homelands, and that he was perhaps not the most effective general. The inexperienced Songgutu Kang'an had arrived together with the reinforcements, but he himself was hardly a grizzled veteran. Most of the skilled Qing generals had died fighting (and losing) in the recent rebellion.

Still, even the likes of these two realized they had one advantage over the Panjabi - numbers. While limits in the Chinese ability to supply such a distant campaign prevented the Qing from bringing their full forces to bear, in a war of attrition the endless pool of available reinforcements provided the Qing with a decisive advantage. Already, the Qing brigades were almost up to full strength. It was a horrific strategy, but the generals knew that if they failed their heads would roll, and they had much more regard for their own heads than for those of their soldiers.

The Panjabi had foolishly left their border unguarded, perhaps thinking they had vanquished the Manchu threat permanently. And so General Fu Shangzhi struck again, attempting another siege upon one of the Panjabi mountain strongholds with a few thousand soldiers, hoping to lure out the Panjabi army.

Predictably, the Panjabi attacked, emboldened by their prior victory. The original plan the generals had concocted was for Fu Shangzhi to kill as many Panjabi as he could before ordering an organized withdrawal through the mountains back to Afghanistan. However, the General, having underestimated the size of the Panjabi army when they first attacked, decided to seize upon their momentum and called in reinforcements to help rout the Panajabi. Unfortunately, he failed to realize that he was only fighting the vanguard, and soon the entire Qing and Panjabi armies were engaged in a month-long climactic running battle in the mountains.



Ultimately, the Chinese were were forced to withdraw and flee back to Afghanistan, managing to escape the relentless Panjabi advance. But the death toll had been unimaginable - over 30,000 Chinese soldiers lay dead, the majority of the Qing army.



Many Qing officers had begun to advocate for a general withdrawal, and there was talk of desertion in the camps. The war had dragged on for a year, and letters began arriving from Beijing with increasing frequency inquiring as to why Panjab remained unconquered, and if the generals perhaps wished to present their heads to the emperor as an apology.

Still, in theory the battle had been a success. Despite the Qing armies being outnumbered, even more Panjabi had died that day than Chinese. And the loss of such a large portion of their populace had drastically increased war exhaustion among the Panajabi people, especially following so soon in the wake of similar defeats to the British Empire. As more reinforcements poured in to join the Qing armies, the war of attrition was most definitely being won by the Chinese, despite the glaring and humiliating incompetence of the Qing military command.

And so the Qing generals resolved to mount another offensive.



This time, no Panjabi army appeared to menace the invasion forces, and for the first time in the war Fu Shangzhi managed to conquer one of Panjabi mountain strongholds, seizing control of the province of Chitral.

Leaving behind a small garrison, the Qing advanced, sensing that Chinese victory was at hand.

Meanwhile, on the home front, the Qing Emperor had ordered the construction of a navy, entertaining ideas of using western firearms to finally bring the Japanese into the tributary system by force of arms.



In the realm of foreign policy, the Qing court was seemingly mocked by Korean ambassadors who infuriatingly alternated between wanting to patch up the recently broken tributary relationship with new talk of alliance, then breaking it again a few months later, to the increasing frustration of the Emperor and his court. The reason for the Korean court's randomly changing foreign policy was unknown, but many in the Qing court felt that the European barbarians must be interfering somehow, and some even called for a campaign to "liberate" Korea from Western influence. Still, any such plan would have to wait until the present war was over.

(more likely the AI was just being buggy, but ah well)

Thankfully, it seemed the war's end would come soon. the Qing army rapidly advanced through the mountains unopposed for months with almost no resistance. Finally, though, the Panjabi army showed itself, but it was badly depleted and in seeming disarray, separated into multiple small armies operating independently of each other, and trying to avoid another major battle, perhaps fearing further losses. This strategy proved counterproductive - the Qing generals began hunting them down one by one, with encirclements and ambushes in the mountains.





The war had finally begun to turn in Qing China's favor, as the Panjabi mountain fortresses began to fall one by one. Interrogations of prisoners revealed that the disarray had been caused by Maharajah Ranjit Singh's death; it was being kept secret to preserve morale, but the Maharajah had died in the earlier battle, and his children were steadily killing each other off in a succession dispute that had left the Panjabi army with divided leadership. Still, though, the war continued.

 
Last edited:

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Did you suffer much attrition in those battles? Is sharing a border with UK such a good idea?
Attrition was kept to a minimum by dividing the Qing army into relatively small units. But yes, even with that I suffered a good deal of attrition in the Panjabi mountains, what with supply limits as low as 8,000 soldiers.

It didn't matter in the end, of course, because my armies were reinforcing faster than attrition could kill them.

In other words, you could say the Qing are well on the path to mastering Russian military doctrines. =P

As for bordering the UK, let's just say that at the rate the British are expanding, I'm not going to have much choice in the matter. (they followed up the invasion of Panjab by attacking Burma)

Looks good so far!

Dotted.
Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Warlord Skorr

Perfect one that commits massacres among rebels
84 Badges
Jul 25, 2012
1.006
88
  • Victoria 2
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For the Motherland
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Impire
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
This AAR is meant to explore an alternate history in which the Daoguang Emperor's reign proved more successful, and embarked China on a path of reform and modernization. Note that I will be roleplaying as Qing China to the best of my ability, so expect me to frequently refer to Europeans as “barbarians,” and so forth. China at this time was extremely ethnocentric, and at least until they lost the Opium Wars, referred to Europeans as barbarians. If this offends you, apologies, I recommend reading a different AAR.
Is the origins of the Chinese word for barbarian as funny as the Greek origin?

I'd suggest appointing a Liberal government, given the way you've written the Encourage Clergy NF, tariffs, and education spending into the story. The Emperor won't be able to overawe his current advisers into compliance forever and it'll bring you closer to parity with the West both in-game and in-story.
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Is the origins of the Chinese word for barbarian as funny as the Greek origin?
I do not know enough about ancient Chinese history to answer this question, but Wikipedia seems to have a number of details on the matter on their Barbarian page, if you're interested.

I'd suggest appointing a Liberal government, given the way you've written the Encourage Clergy NF, tariffs, and education spending into the story. The Emperor won't be able to overawe his current advisers into compliance forever and it'll bring you closer to parity with the West both in-game and in-story.
Unfortunately that's fast becoming impossible. (I'm several years further in the game than the actual AAR, as writing updates takes time) Switching parties increases militancy, and with the huge amount of militancy I've gained from the westernization events and the first three reforms, I do not have room for any unecessary militancy.

The main reason I picked the reactionary party at game start was for gameplay reasons. +10% war justification speed lowers my infamy gain significantly, and I was hoping having a reactionary party in charge would reduce reactionary militancy. That and their jingoistic policies align well with my policy of westernization by conquest, when it comes to roleplaying.

I'm going to try to roleplay increasing tensions between the emperor and his advisers as the AAR goes on, and I'm eventually forced to implement economic reforms. But as far as the actual party in charge, it'll have to remain the Conservatives, at least until I finish westernizing.
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Part 4: The Partition of Panjab and Kashmir



The Emperor is still hammering out the details of the first drastic military reform, as negotiations for advisors continue with various European powers. As such he is in no rush to finish off the Panjabi, and sends orders to proceed at a cautious pace.

(in other words I need to wait until I can pass the first reform before I can annex Panjab, or else I won't get any research points from conquering)



The Chinese Conquest of Panjab is nearing its conclusion, but the Qing generals are worried. Reports from captured prisoners indicate that ten brigades of Panjabi forces remain at large, but reconnaissance by their forces has only been able to locate an army of 4,000 or so Panjabi. The Generals could easily destroy this army, but hesitate to attack until they can discover where the rest of the Panjabi army is hiding; some suspect they have hidden themselves in foreign territory. Thus, the generals decide to avoid an engagement and continue a steady series of sieges.



Regardless, the war is very much being won by the Qing Empire.



Various other foreign conflicts have arisen in the meantime, as the European barbarians have begun colonizing Africa, targetting the Zulu and the Berber states. The Chinese court is becoming increasingly aware of these matters as they increase diplomatic ties with the Portugese and other European powers, and seeing the ease and speed with which the Europeans conduct their colonial campaigns just makes the Qing court increasingly convinced of the need for military modernization. (in an interesting note, the first Egypt-Ottoman war seems to have ended in white peace)

But increasing, and often humiliating, contacts with the foreign devils continues to lead to increased anti-Manchu feeling among the Chinese populace.

(I'm going to pick the option that does not decrease the population every time this event pops up, as I need the Chinese population to be as large as possible for later in the game)



Finally, the Qing army advances on the Panjabi capital, Lahore. And at long last, the Qing are triumphant. Hundreds die as the Qing armies cruelly sack the city, but the Qing are unable to locate any of Maharajah Ranjit Singh relatives. The generals had been ordered to take them alive, so that that Qing might use them to setup a puppet government in Panjab. Alas, they appear to have fled the capital ahead of the Qing advance.

Despite harsh interrogations of the captured survivors of the garrison, the Qing are unable to locate the royal family; it seems that nobody in the city knows where they fled to. The Qing suspect that they may have fled to join the remaining Panjabi army, encamped in the mountains around Bahawaipur.

The Qing do not dare attack however, as the Panjabi are well fortified in the mountains, and the Qing are still unsure whether the Panjabi have other forces hidden in foreign territory. And so they set a trap - the army moves on to siege Firozpur, leaving only a small garrison behind to defend Lahore.

British armies are sighted just across the border, but thankfully they take no action to intervene. And the Panjabi fall for the bait, attempting a siege to retake Lahore. The Qing army immediately turns around and attacks the Panjabi, who are caught defenseless on the open plains of Lahore.



The Panjabi army is predictably annihalated, and upon interrogating prisoners it because clear that the 4,000 soldiers were all that was left of Panjab's supposed ten remaining brigades.



With this last victory, the war is, for all intents and purposes, over. The Qing armies proceed to siege down the remaining Panjabi bases without incident, and soon control the entire country.

Meanwhile, the Qing court in Beijing is becoming increasingly worried about British expansionism, what with the recent British takeover of western Burma. China now had a direct land border with British India.



In addition, the tens of thousands of soldiers sitting just across the border from Chinese-occupied Panjab made the Qing commanders very worried. Tensions along the border escalated into a few minor altercations between British and Qing forces. Thankfully none of these escalated to the point of anyone dying, but they still drastically increased diplomatic tensions between China and the foreign devils. The Qing court's original orders had been to occupy all of Panjab, and many of the Chinese soldiers and officers were angry that the British had stolen Kashmir from under their noses. Meanwhile, the British viewed the Chinese as uncivilized, and many of the British soldiers and officers were outraged at such "uncivilized" aggression into what they perceived as rightfully being in Britain's sphere of influence, and thus eager to incite a diplomatic incident that would give them an excuse to put the "uncivilized" Chinese back in their place.

At this point the surviving Panjabi government officials offered to formally sign away Panjabi sovereignty to the Qing, but the Qing knew they could not annex Panjab without confirming the move with Britain, as a war with the British Empire would likely end very badly.



And so the Qing rejected all peace offers.

(yes, I still can't pass the first reform. =P )

The Qing court had been carefully training a new corps of diplomats in the unusual techniques of Western diplomacy, with some help from the Portugese in Macau. These techniques were humiliating, requiring them to pretend the primitive European barbarians were equals to the ancient glory of China, and to respect "international laws" that the Europeans had written as universal, despite never inviting the Qing to any of the meetings that had written these international laws. Those in the court with more humility than others had convinced the Emperor that such false courtesies were a necessity, but the Daoguang Emperor remained less than enthusiastic about the whole idea. Still, so long as the Qing elite was not required to engage in such humiliating practices themselves, they were willing to let others debase themselves before the foreign devils, since there seemed little alternative.

The Qing embassy was dispatched to hold meetings with the British Crown and the East India company, with the objective being to sign a formal treaty demarking the borders between Chinese and British Panjab, and having the British formally recognize the Chinese interest in Panjab.

Meanwhile, newspapers from Europe finally arrive via Macau to announce the British invasion of Burma, never mind the fact that the war was already over.



In the meantime, the Qing continue to grapple with the difficulties of balancing the budget while funding reform efforts; many of China's artisans are practically starving due to the high expense of imported goods.



The embassy to Britain is reporting some success; the British are impressed by our diplomats' mastery of their so-called "civilized" diplomacy.



The increased contacts with British, Portugese, and other diplomats have unfortunately resulted in increasing western influences in our society. "The Westerners have no respect for Chinese customs, insult our ancestors, turn our people away from rightful Confucian wisdom into their Christian cults, and their presence is beginning to turn the Chinese people against the Qing regime! We must banish them and close our borders once more!" argue many influential members of the Qing court.

But alas, the Qing Emperor has decreed that we have no choice but to accept their presence and learn from them, so that China might catch up with them in technology, and take our revenge someday in the future. Many members of the Imperial court and bureaucracy voiced angry disagreement with this ruling, defying the Emperor to his face, and called for the foreign devils to be thrown out by force. Such open defiance would normally be punished severely, but the Emperor does not dare issue a harsh rebuke. The opposition was too strong to take such a risk, lest it only escalate the opposition into open rebellion. Instead the Daoguang Emperor simply overruled them; as an absolute monarch, he does not need their agreement. Still, the Emperor knows that he will have to proceed cautiously, lest the anger escalate into an open rebellion against his rule.



The Emperor sends urgent letters to the Chinese embassy - the mission to Britain must succeed, so that the Empire might recover some of its lost prestige.

But for now, the military occupation of Panjab continues, as the two nations continue to debate the precise terms of the partition of Panjab and Kashmir.
 
Last edited:

blklizard

Field Marshal
25 Badges
Mar 7, 2012
5.458
86
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Cities in Motion
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • BATTLETECH
Diplomacy with western powers will be tricky for China. One misstep and you may find yourself in a terrible position. How's the stability of China at the moment?
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Diplomacy with western powers will be tricky for China. One misstep and you may find yourself in a terrible position. How's the stability of China at the moment?
In the AAR, good, I have only .63 militancy.

At the point I am in the game, terrible, I have 5 militancy after only the first three reforms. My artisans are all not getting their needs and are getting more and more militant as a result. The western winds fired much sooner than it did in my last China game, and this means I'm probably going to deal with some reactionary rebellions before I finish westernizing.
 

DKM

General
54 Badges
Sep 29, 2013
2.482
509
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings Complete
Question- Are you always going to keep most of the Empire under puppets or are you eventually going to annex it?
 

Hethran

Major
42 Badges
Sep 2, 2013
528
146
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Darkest Hour
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
Question- Are you always going to keep most of the Empire under puppets or are you eventually going to annex it?
The Chinese substates are auto-annexed once you westernize, but as for puppets, it is impossible to annex a puppet, at least in vanilla. So Tibet, and any other puppets I release, will just stay puppets forever (or until my government is overthrown in a revolution/a foreign power forces me to release them). I'll mainly release puppets as necessary to keep from going over the infamy limit.

In the late game I will probably start disregarding the infamy limit, but at that point I will likely start releasing puppets en masse for roleplaying reasons - specifically, historically China was not ever interested in being a Europe-style colonial power, so any colonial provinces I conquer, unless I can turn them into states, I will probably release them sooner or later, in a modified version of the tributary system.

Ideally by the game's end, at the very least all of Asia east of the Ottomans will be a Chinese puppet or in China's sphere.
 

DKM

General
54 Badges
Sep 29, 2013
2.482
509
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • King Arthur II
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • For the Motherland
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Magicka 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • War of the Roses
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings Complete
The Chinese substates are auto-annexed once you westernize, but as for puppets, it is impossible to annex a puppet, at least in vanilla. So Tibet, and any other puppets I release, will just stay puppets forever (or until my government is overthrown in a revolution/a foreign power forces me to release them). I'll mainly release puppets as necessary to keep from going over the infamy limit.

In the late game I will probably start disregarding the infamy limit, but at that point I will likely start releasing puppets en masse for roleplaying reasons - specifically, historically China was not ever interested in being a Europe-style colonial power, so any colonial provinces I conquer, unless I can turn them into states, I will probably release them sooner or later, in a modified version of the tributary system.

Ideally by the game's end, at the very least all of Asia east of the Ottomans will be a Chinese puppet or in China's sphere.
I was speaking of the substates so thank you for answering my question. I never play in China so I didn't know what would happen to the substates. I know you can't annex puppets; I had just assumed that you would release them then declare war on them.