The MGC 4 AAR

[Mowers]

Last night

Well, that seemed to work relatively well. I enjoyed playing with everyone and we seemed to get a result or 2. Everyone who has helped us out recently has been a very worthwhile addition.

Few points.

1) We keep getting wars between France and Spain which is interesting but I do ask myself 'are the French commanders taking part in naval campaigns?' Where is the naval aspect to these wars? I see lots of conflicts where you fight remorselessly and very expensively at the border but not much else. Obviously I probably wouldnt know anyway but I would be very interested to hear back.

2) Registrations for Holland. Last time BiB created uber- holland. Anyone interested in having a go in what are argueably harder conditions?

3) Play. I cant play today but can play tomorrow. Chaps please do play on but get the full compliment. Any problems call me on UK +44 207 386 9472 or +44 781 374 3483

Mowers

 

[TheArchduke]

As we need a summary for now, I have tried to sort out who played whom. If anybody knows that I sorted something wrong out plz icq me or pm, I will correct it immeaditly:

Austria 1492-1509 (Mowers)
England 1492-1509 (TheArchduke)
France 1492-1502 (BiB) , 1502-1509 (Akira)
Mameluck Empire 1492-1493 (Trobalaria), 1493-1509 (Prince Eugene)
Ottoman Empire 1492-1509 (Darthmaur)
Poland 1492-1509 (PJL)
Spain 1492-1509 (LaExmachine)
Sweden 1492-1509 (Sniper)

Austria 1509-1518 (Mowers)
England 1509-1518 (TheArchduke)
France 1509-1518 (KhalDhrogo)
Mameluck Empire 1509-1515 (Prince Eugene)
Ottoman Empire 1509-1518 (Darthmaur)
Poland 1509-1514 (PJL)
Spain 1509-1518 (LaExmachine)
Sweden 1509-1518 (Sniper)

Austria 1518-1523 (Mowers)
England 1518-1523 (TheArchduke)
France 1518-1523 (Khal Drogo)
Ottoman Empire 1518-1523 (Darthmaur)
Poland 1518-1523 (PJL)
Portugal 1518-1523 (Smirfy)
Spain 1518-1523 (Laexmachine)
Sweden 1518-1523 (Sniper)

1523 Peace of Madrid. End of the first great coalition war.

Austria 1523-1528 (Mowers) 1528-1532 (Smirfy)
England 1523-1528 (TheArchduke)
France 1523-1532 (Khal Drogo) 1528-1532 (Barnius)
Ottoman Empire 1523-1532 (Darthmaur)
Poland 1523-1532 (PJL)
Portugal 1523-1528 (Smirfy) 1528-1532 (Mowers)
Spain 1523-1532 (Laexmachine)
Sweden 1523-1532 (Sniper)

Great Austrian war. Austria is crushed and put from the major powers table.

England 1532-1538 (TheArchduke)
France 1532-1538 (juv95hrn)
Mameluck Empire (Smirfy)
Ottoman Empire (Darthmaur)
Poland 1532-1538 (PJL)
Portugal 1532-1538 (Mowers)
Spain 1532-1538 (Sadistik)
Sweden 1532-1538 (Sniper)

Phew got it. So as stated above plz pm me corrections.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

OTTOMAN EMPIRE, part three, the Great Confusion

Coalition war against Spanish Habsburg was progressing slowly, but steadily. Finally, with 3/4 of its European possesion occupied by Ottoman Empire and France, Spaniards accepted coalition demands, and thus treaty of Madrid, obliging Spain to cede many Carraibean, African, Brazilian and Indian possesions, and pay significant contribution of few thousands ducats.

In the peace, Poland, which, incited by Habsburgs, attacked Ottoman Empire, was included, and white peace was signed.

And the time for it was high-for Grand Vizier already was planning another campaign and amassing troops for it. Namely, Hungarian one.

But first, our fleet transported army from Spain, and we've taken two Pagan provinces from Sunni Mali, converting it to true Shiite faith in the proces. (those two provinces were promptly converted to Turkish culture and Shiite religion)

And in winter of 903 (1525), our armies ammased at Hungarian border started real onslaught. Hungarian forts fell like houses of cards before our Jannissaries, and only their capital was saved by Austrian intervention. Sometime in the fighting, Hungarian king was killed heirless by our armies, and what was left of Hungarian nobility elected Habsburgs as new Kings of Hungary. Or, rather, what was left of Hungary, only their capital province, beign stormed as Austrian monarch was beign crowned with new Hungarian crown (the original one is beign worn by pet Sultan slave)

But the war was not to end. Austrians were trying to resist, and bancrupted themselves and Italian Fuggers in the process. To no avail, despite Sultan refused to commit Ottoman Empire to the war, and almost no new soldiers were recruited, Austria was beign crushed, in the east by Ottoman Empire superior leadership, military organization, and morale. In the east, by mighty French, and everywhere else by European minor states, hating Austria for its past transgressions.

What came next was time of great confusion. While we were bathing hungarians in blood, Poland, England, Portugal, and Spain came to help Austria. Short confusing war followed, where Spain grabbed carraibean back, few TP got burn. We also noticed that Portugal decided not to take what Spain agred to give them in Treaty of Madrid. Apparently, they are Habsburg agent.

Soon thereafter, with Austria in financial ruin, peace in the west was signed, France gaining Franche Comte, but losing Carraibean. In the east, Poland kept fighting, rejecting white peace offers from Ottoman Empire. So we went and crushed it completly, promising it will be the end of Poland as we know it.

But we were tired with war in Europe. With Spain rejecting demands to return colonies, we had two choices. Either subdue Poland completly so it wouldn't be a threat longer, or make generous peace to win its neutrality, if not friendship. We made the second choice-we asked for control of Podolian manufactory for 30 years, and nothing more. Poland agreed, although Grand Vizier have bad feelings about its attitude....

So, peace prevailed again. But not for long, the new Spanish monarch not only refused to hand Carraibean but also refused to pay contribution, blatantly breaking Spanish' own words. So, we begun talks with new French monarch, and we begun planning the war again, military officers from Ottoman Empire were sent to observe the war-as at first, only France was engaged.

We used this time to prepare ourselves for finally taking out Mamelukes, which were growing strong. Thus, armies were assembled, and war declared....

 

[Damocles]

Mowers,

Of course not all stand-ins are fuckups. There are some great stand-ins that become regular players. Hell. Both me and BiB began as stand-ins!!

The point I'm trying to get across is that, it is unfair, not only to the player, but to everyone else playing the MGC, if they are thrown into a major role without having much experience.

As Barnius mentioned, this was his first real war against players. Couple this with the fact that all of the MGC regulars (smirfy denies being among the elite, but the facts are in his diplo sliders and excellent financial management during a war) are some of the most skilled EUII players in the entire community.

I.E how Barnius mentioned everyone calling for him to unpause the game. You should never ask to pause the game in the middle of the war UNLESS there is something RL you need to take care of, like to go take a piss or answer the phone. Simply put, having to divide your time up between all corners of your Empire is part of the penalty for being so large, and helps someone that is alot smaller.

When I was France, fighting on three fronts against a seven player coalition for 18 years straight, I didn't once pause the game. Maur, BiB, PJL (one of the reasons he lost his last war was because he was fighting in FOUR different theatres!!), Ulver etc never needed to pause the game even in the worst war.

This comes from experience. Not really even innate skill, so much as having played alot of games to where you can adjust and know what to do in any given situation. In a game like EUII, a hairsbreadth more experience in a region of the map will spell crushing defeat even between nominally equal players.

Throwing a inexperienced stand-in into the mix in a serious MP AAR with very capable players in a volatile situation is a recipe for disaster and unfair to everyone involved.

If you are going to not screen people who join, then you should not alter the game files afterward once one of them fucks up, as this is the third time I believe something of this magnitude has occured if I'm not mistaken. Not to mention, new inexperienced players are more easily manipulated into alliances and agreements that hardly benefit them at all.

Just saying. The MGC is billed as a challenge for experienced players. Hell. 90 percent of the special rules are put in the game to offset the experience of superior players...Rules that wouldn't matter at all in most of your casual valknet games.

So when you hold your game up to a high standard, you must be fair to yourself and the other players by holding them up to a high standard as well.

In any case, kudos to Barnius for doing as well as he did, considering the circumstances.

 

[Damocles]

Mowers,

BTW,

We've had our disagreements on mechanics and game policy, but you gotta know, I intensly respect you. So take anything I say that sounds overly critical with a large grain of salt.

 

[Damocles]

Another thing to note.

The country who dominates any MGC is the one who is most consistantly controlled by a single skilled player. Whether it be Spain, France, Austria, Russia or the Turks. (The Five Major Majors) or regionally dominating such as Netherlands, Brandenburg, or England.

Look at the excellent list that Archduke posted and draw your own conclusions.

 

[Damocles]

Continuing my way to 1000 posts...

Russia /should/ begin in 1492. Even if it involves some mindless AI bashing, so does the Ottomans and the Austrians...Or Spain's mindless colonizing. Russia is only one of five majors who are able to dominate the world scene. It is unfair they are the only one of the five not included.

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Damocles
Mowers,

BTW,

We've had our disagreements on mechanics and game policy, but you gotta know, I intensly respect you. So take anything I say that sounds overly critical with a large grain of salt.

Thats very nice to hear.

I, the game, the rules all need criticism so that they get better. Its evolved a thousand times as a result and I have been very happy with the current game so far. I have a few concerns but I think they will balance themselves out.

I do think what you are saying about stand ins is also correct but we have to bear in mind that its all a trade off. We need 8 and we need to drive the game. The upshot of that is hopefully we inspire people, that the game gets further than most and that its exciting. The down side is that we occassionally have some problems that need to be sorted out in a way that the rules couldnt cover for. At this point I need to make some tough calls that I dont like, I had to do this yesterday but I am working on an eventual solution.

Changing files; well I try to avoid doing this as much as possible as it draws criticism. I am fairly pleased with my interim Austrian solution and was fairly pleased with my French rebuild. In both cases the victors werent cheated of their hard foughts gains and hopefully the losers will be given another chance to readdress the issue. In the mean time I hope that players continue to strike a BoP (or what ever you want to call it Maur)

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by Damocles
Continuing my way to 1000 posts...

Russia /should/ begin in 1492. Even if it involves some mindless AI bashing, so does the Ottomans and the Austrians...Or Spain's mindless colonizing. Russia is only one of five majors who are able to dominate the world scene. It is unfair they are the only one of the five not included.

Well, last time it didnt work because of the game engine. This time I get to see if I am right or not. It will be a personal lesson as I will be playing Russia.

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Well, if i can add someting-i'm certainly not that happy with so big reduction of Austrian inflation. I could understand reduction of 20%, the human penalty, or even further 25%, the second bancrupcy, but whole 75%....

 

[Mowers]

Originally posted by DarthMaur
Well, if i can add someting-i'm certainly not that happy with so big reduction of Austrian inflation. I could understand reduction of 20%, the human penalty, or even further 25%, the second bancrupcy, but whole 75%....

Well its an AI country now and if it wasnt reduced then it would just go bakrupt every 5 years. Unless you have a better solution?
But last night you didnt so this is the route I took. But note its an interim solution though as there doesnt appear to be a half decent answer at the moment. But one will appear....as ever

 

[Prince Eugene]

Website

http://www24.brinkster.com/wadehouston/

I will post treaties here and will try to keep up with the most recent save files. I think it will be especially useful for debates on violations of agreements.

 

[unmerged(11402)]

New Treaty bet. Spain/France in the making

Currently, Spain/Portugal/Sweden are allied and France/Ottoman Empire are allied, which makes for a potential world war if we can't diffuse the situation successfully.

 

[unmerged(9945)]

Mowers, I would love to play as Holland .

 

[TheArchduke]

Well some time since my last AAR so I thought I post again.

Well I stopped somewhere around 1518 I think during the coalition war which resulted in the peace of Madrid. Well after some more years of warfare Spain finally agreed to the terms of the coalition and thereby I got hold of Bourbon. My country was burning all over with rebels in every province because I converted to Protestant in the middle of the war. But the money was badly needed and provided me with the oppurtunity to convert Manhattan which I suceeded lateron.

Spain didn´t accept peace till I burned tps in West africa and let OE colonize there which was the major point in the peace which he wouldn´t agree upon.

One of the nicer events during that period that a COT of trade spawned in Karroo even as it was still spanish occupied. At this time I decided because I still had the enourmos stab cost of 1300 to release Scotland as well as Ireland as a vassal and converted Manhattan which brought them down to 788 which was a little more than one year´s income at that time.

So I then looked at my country´s economy and saw that I only had a income of 50. Great. Well I did a bit of colonising and merchant sending but then suddenly OE declared war on Hungary. Austria tried to rescue her hungarian neighbour but failed eventually and when all of Hungary was controlled by OE suddenly the event fired giving Austria only the capital province and OE all the rest. At this time a new coalition war broke out with Spain and England declaring war on OE and France trying to come to Austria´s rescue. But just about this time Austria collapsed and went bankrupt. Soon after that OE made peace with Austria´s alliance leader Savoy!? and got peace with them after France got Franche Comte out of the war.
Me and Spain effectivly destroyed France and OE´s caribean empire at this time and I burned several tps and got me Les Cayes and Tobago adding to my isle Jamaica.
Well soon after this peace all of Europe came to peace with the exception of Poland who gave up his one province weapon´s manufactory in podolia to OE buying himself peace.

Well the diplomatic performance at this point was disastrous with nobody knowing how to help Austria and eventually we all failed.

Peace embraced Europe finally again as the session came to halt.

After much discussion it was decided that Austria was to be taken out of the game and the Austrian player took over the Mamelucks as to let Austria to be repaired by the Ai.

In this session England remained peacefull recovering her stability gaining land tech 11 and finally colonizing of the part of the U.S. and South Africa finished. I also expanded into India establishing three tps there and got Jakarta and Sunda as tps for my Karroo COT.

Frantically I tried to raise my trade income which was at the end of the war not to speak off: 4 ducats or something in a month. And finally I got the admirality event which together with an autoloan resulted in me getting three loans and putting my economy under hard pressure.
At that point another war broke out with France trying to get Spain into accepting the treaty of madrid in detail to bring Madrid in to paying 1666 ducats and ceding Cuba and Puerto Rico and Antigua to France again.

My decision in the treaty of Madrid was to ask for lesser Ducats: 500 only. I eventually got that but OE and France, both asking for 1666 ducats, never saw a cent. Well you don´t have to be too greedy!

So I stayed neutral in the new Spanish-French war and put third of my income into treasury trying to exploit my 9 merchants/year (3 COT, 3 Protestant coast prov., 1 Stab, 2 domestic politics) into gaining a foothold in the American COT. My trade tech still being 2 which got my other 1/3 of the income didn´t allowed me monopolies so I settled with 5 merchants in Manhattan, Anglia, Cuzco and some in Zacetecas for the beginning and lateron flooding all COTs of the world upping my trade income to the point that my income raised to about 72 ducats per month. Rebuilding my fleet to one of the biggest (Or even the biggest). Finally getting and staying on +3 stability with my poor income and slowly expanding my colonial empire England awaits the years to come.

 

[TheArchduke]

I can only play in the evening today but try to get someone nice to take over England, who doesn´t conquer Ireland and Scotland again or wait for me. I am avaiable at 6-7 p.m. GMT today.

 

[juv95hrn]

France 1538-44

When France finally understood that Spain would not honor the treaty of Madrid without further persuasion a series of events took place. First the French Mediterranean navy sallied forth under the competent leadership of an Admiral, full maintenance and equal tech level to the Spanish fleet. A fleet of 12 transport ships was encountered and sunk to the last ship, 11 warships and 13 galleys was the composition of the French fleet. An unfortunate crash made it possible for the Spanish to resurrect these ships and escape with them to other location. The French navy then encountered a small Spanish flotilla of 2 warships and 4 galleys in French home waters returning from the sortie. Everything looked good but somehow the Spanish succeeded in winning this battle, home waters, leader 24-6 odds, not being blockaded didn’t help. Maybe the Spaniards had God on their side after all? The Neapolitan fleet was quickly sunk and an army was landed in Naples. After a short while Spain’s former ally was vassalized and invited into the French alliance. The navy then proceeded to invade the Balearic.

Meanwhile on the wide stretches of the southern Atlantic st Helena and the Falklands were being colonized by French marines intended to serve as forward supply bases against Spanish possessions in South America. France had as first nation gained knowledge of the Cape Horn area and could land troops on the Chilean cost if needed. The former Incan possessions were largely non-fortified.

After a few failed Spanish attempts at investing Béarn French troops finally started to move south. Hard battles were fought in Asturias, Cantabria. Troops were landed with ships in Valencia and Catalonia. At the end of the day Spain held Navarra with 18.000 men and France had also taken Gerona and Aragorn under siege. A substantial force had simultaneously landed in Southwestern South America and proceeded up the coast. Spain now realized that the treaty of Madrid after all must have been just and a cease-fire was called for. Troops were halted at their location and no more troops were being constructed. Spain agreed to the French demands in the treaty of Madrid and France declined to collect the 1666 ducats in exchange for permanent rights to the Falklands. The French navy immediately sailed for the Caribbean to take up possession of the French islands.

French troops remained in their places laying siege to 6 provinces, Austurias had already fallen and the other sieges were very close to breaking the walls. The French navy split up and troops were ordered to land. Then came news from Madrid.

“The Spanish government has fallen! Peace has been signed!” chanted people in the streets.

Spain had thus ceded only Austurias, the Balearic islands and some remote province in South America. If this had happened only 6 months later the situation would have ben a totally different one.

Spain now wanted the French to renew the hostilities and get their possessions. French diplomats politely refused this due to the 5 year truce in effect. IT would seriously upset the balance of the French population to declare another war on Spain so soon. Also it would give France a bad reputation internationally to declare war on someone so soon. France instead suggested that Spain would renew the hostilities or that 5 years would have to pass before the islands were given back to their rightful owner. As soon as the islands were ceded the population of Asturias would be free to rejoin the Spanish crown if they so wanted. The French garrison would be removed and any revolt would have its own course.

The war had in all not been very costly. All troops had been constructed with annual taxation letting France declare that inflation now was the same as 12 years ago when the last advisor of France took over. In these 12 years France’s status in the world (VPs) had grown with one third. Two new islands in the southern Atlantic were colonized and trade posts had been constructed in India and around the great lakes in North America. One new vassal had been won, a new naval base in the Mediterranean and the treaty of Madrid had been accepted by Spain. Trade had also expanded somewhat during the war. The last year of the war taxes were demanded and this financed 8 tax collectors so that now every French province contained one at last, compared to 13 lacking them before the war. In all the period 1532-1544 had been a rather successful period for the French Kingdom.

 

[juv95hrn]

A few comments on yesterdays session.

There are serious technical diffculties in organizing an 8 player game. Therefore I think that patience is more important than 5 minute limits. If you want to avoid crashes and play fast, just exchange any player that crashes for someone that has got a better connection. Also, when two major nations that has been in war for ten years with 2 new players trying to settle a peace from other players, while negotiating over ICQ and dealing with constant crashes wants to pause for a few minutes to discuss...

"UNPAUSE!!!!!"

Is this a 3rd person shoother game? I thought Paradox put this function in to be used? Is the pasue function a bug, a mistake? Is there a MCG4 rule against using pause? I find it unpolite and a seriuos lack of maturity and understanding to don't allow for a short pause when needed. I later heard that the last peace negotiations before I entered the game went on for the better part of an hour and I agree the pause function should not be abused but common courtesy does not allow anyone to enter CAPS LOCK heaven when other players pause in a very reasonable fashion.

To me EU2 is a strategy game, not an action game. I want to play with mature, understanding, respectful opponents. I can understand how people becomes unpatient but then one should ask in a polite manner. Usually angry ICQ messages saying "hurry up!" only has the effect of taking even more time obviously.

Hopefully everyone agrees with me and takes an extra deep breath once the game crashes, someone pauses, goes to the bathroom, sends the wrong save fiel over ICQ, picks the wrong scenario in the lobby and so forth...
If deep breaths dont work...try banging your head against a sharp and pointy object. But, please , dont abuse your fellow gamers...

Happy gaming...

 

[unmerged(2833)]

Come on people, we're supposed to play early today.

 

[Mowers]

Computer down

I am sittting in an internet cafe horribly hungover and its raining.

My computer at home seems to be broken. I have no idea what is wrong with it.

3 of you have the file.

Play on. Hopefully I will be online later........

Good luck