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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

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Not sure if the audience prefers separate threads or not, let me know, ok?

Picking up in Jan 1576: The situation
My allies: Scotland, Hansa, Hannover, Saxony, Denmark

Stuff outside of Europe:

Trading Post: Madras

Colonies: St. Helena, Mahe, Les Cayes (Haiti)

Cities: Manhattan (Center of Trade), Michaogan (Mexico), Tuxpan (Mexico), Mekong, Ceram (East Indes, Center of Trade), Tortuga (Haiti), Baranona (Haiti)

This will be the last full list of colonies etc. as it gets too long! I will include a bit of a status report as of Jan 1600 at the end.

My plans are to expand into Tahiti, Bali, Ganges, Howrah (both in India), east coast of North America, and Cuba. In the end, others beat me to Cuba and Bali.

Feb 1576 War between Turkey and Mameluks ends with Nile and Judea ceded to Turkey.

Dec 1577 Found new colony at Nakhodka (Eastern Siberia). I won't mention new colonies anymore, there are too many! I am really cranking out colonists now, ~8 per year.

Dec 1577 Russia declares war on Golden Horde.

Jul 1578 Turkey and Algiers declare war on Hungary - this goes on for a while!

Oct 1578 My alliance expires. When I recreate it, Bohemia is added

Mar 1579 Golden Horde cedes Saratow and Bogutjar to Russia in exchange for peace

Jan 1582 Scotland converts to Reformed Protestant, breaking their vassel status and breaking alliance and with me, the rats.

In June of 1582, after positioning a colony and 2 armies adjacent to the Incas, I declare war. I don't know why Spain left them alone in this game - Spain _always_ gets the Incas and Aztecs, this is the first time I've seen the Incas unconquered so late. It only takes 4 months to completely conquer them.

Jun 1583 Scotland rejoins the alliance.
I have no interest in conquering them, I just don't want them bothering me!

Apr 1584 The war between Hungary and Turkey ends with Transylvania becoming a Turkish posession.

July 1584 After years of unrest and revolt, the Netherlands is formed. I managed to keep Flanders at the cost of ~50000 infantry. France maintained an army of 100000 men in Alois (sp?); I have no idea what their losses were but I know they had many more revolts than I did. The Netherlands is created at war with Spain.

Again after extensive preparation (4 small armies and 1 large commanded by Sir Francis Drake), I declare war on the Iroquois nation in Jan 1585. This war takes 9 months and several thousand men, but in Sept they surrender.

While the eyes of the English military were focused on North America, a raiding party in Heiongjang fell on the level 5 colony there and completely destroyed it in August of 1585. In May of 1586 I established a new trading post there (hit the wrong button, meant to start a colony, doh!). Heiongjang revolted again in 1590, but was effectively suppressed and successfully upgraded to a city in Aug 1592. I only mention this as an example of the kind of thing that goes wrong sometimes. It is pretty routine to fail in colonization, but losing an expensive level 5 colony hurts!

Dec 1588 Spain and the Netherlands come to peace, with Spain paying restitution to the Netherlands.

I have a whole page of notes, here, up to Jan 1600, that lists colonies, trading posts and cities created. The only 'incident' was the destruction of a trading post in Bangkok by natives. No wars, etc. I will spare you the details!

As of Jan 1600, I have a large number of overeas possessions. The major clumps are ~20 cities and colonies on the east coast of North America (roughly North Carolina to New York, inland to Pennsylvania), 2 cities and a colony in eastern Siberia (so as to set up a fur trading empire), ~7 cities in Peru, centered on the former Incan Empire. I have 'coaling stations' all over, notably St. Helena, Mekong, Tahiti, Kauai (Hawaii), Mahe.

My alliances are Hansa, Hannover, Bohemia and Saxony. I forgot to note when Scotland left. The Netherlands never joined, sadly.

The plan now is to create a large number of trading posts in eastern India and southeast Asia, cities in NE North America, and a mix of cities and trading posts in eastern Siberia. I'd like to expand a little on the Continent, so as to be able to annex my vassals.

At this point, really, I am pretty much unbeatable. I don't say that gloatingly, it just is. Inheriting Sweden (see part 1) made me almost untouchable, as it took me from a medium-strong power in Europe to pretty close to number 1. I think Spain could still muster more forces in Europe, but too many powers hate Spain. Between my alliances and my economic/military strength, noone wants to take me on.

That's all for now...

Scott
 

Doomdark

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>At this point [ca 1600], really, I am pretty much unbeatable.

Hmm, once again a report where the player is top dog after a third of the game time. This trend is starting to worry me... I won't say anything about the colonies. After all, domination overseas could have gone pretty much any which way, although Spain and Portugal should perhaps be pissed off enough by now to declare war on you.

What worries me more is the fact that a great power simply inherited another huge nation without having to shed a single drop of blood.

Similar things did happen in history (Habsburgs), but I really doubt that any non-Scandinavian regent would be allowed to rule Sweden peacefully for very long (Sigismund, eh, Sapura? ;)). I.e. you should be facing massive revolts by now; both for historical reasons and matters of play balance.

I very much doubt that this 'inheritance' event can happen with another formal great power like Turkey or Spain (it would also be pretty weird if it happened to the Papal States or the Hanseatic League), which gives even more weight to my opinion that Sweden and Austria should be playable nations with great power status.

Alternatively, this event could simply be cut from the game entirely.

/Doomie
 

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Inheritance events happen VERY, VERY rarely.

And its a random event, and random events can be set to on or off at start of the game.

/Johan
 

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Right, this was the first time I had ever gotten it. The fact that it was such a large power, and not just Wurttemburg or Pskov or something was also important.

Scott
 

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Hmm, well I will certainly be playing with random events on (unless they are mostly negative and only affect human players :)). And I do like the concept of the inheritance event...

However, I think it might be a good idea to disallow this event for all Great Powers (including Sweden, Austria and possibly Denmark) for play balance reasons, and for all nations that are not Monarchies (Papal States, Netherlands, Hansa, etc) due to the absurdity.

Furthermore, I find the concept of Royal Marriage quite suspect when applied to Republics, Holy Orders and Merchant Leagues. E.g. Hanseatic League, Teutonic Order, Venice, Netherlands, Papal States etc.

These types of nations should not be able to offer nor receive Royal Marriages, and should not be subject to inheritance.

/Doomie
 

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Well, certain nations have to be taken with a bit of flexibility. Helvetica, for example, never has a 'monarch'. Creating a separate system of relations for the exceptions would be a difficult task, at best. Just think of a royal marraige as an exchange of ambassadors or some such.

As for the inheritance event, consider the question of what should be considered a Great Power. At present it is not possible to annex completely one of the 7 playable nations (Sweden and Austria are not among them). Other than those, it is open season. If Turkey conquers 90% of Austria, should it still be considered a Great Power and be immune to this very rare random event? I like the event as it stands - you may have a small chance to score.

BTW I mentioned having never gotten the event before, but now (in hindsight) I realize that I have _seen_ it before - I was playing as France and suddenly, during a war with Poland, realized that Savoy was Polish. Not from war (can you imagine the logistics?) but they must have gotten the event.

Scott
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark on 05-14-2000 11:37 AM
>At this point [ca 1600], really, I am pretty much unbeatable.
Similar things did happen in history (Habsburgs), but I really doubt that any non-Scandinavian regent would be allowed to rule Sweden peacefully for very long...
/Doomie

You mean apart from Bernadotte? :) I know he is outside the time period, but only by c.20 years.

/Graham
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark on 05-14-2000 02:16 PM
Hmm, well I will certainly be playing with random events on (unless they are mostly negative and only affect human players :)).

NO. THERE SEEMS A BALANCE OF + AND - EVENTS. RANDOM CASH IN THE BANK AND INVESTMENTS IN INFRASTRUCTURE ETC.

And I do like the concept of the inheritance event...

However, I think it might be a good idea to disallow this event for all Great Powers (including Sweden, Austria and possibly Denmark) for play balance reasons...

REPUBLICS WERE VERY SUSPECT IN EU TIMES AND WEREN'T THE AUTOMATIC CHOICE THAT THEY WOULD BE TODAY.

These types of nations should not be able to offer nor receive Royal Marriages, and should not be subject to inheritance.

CONSIDER THE USA WHICH ALMOST BECAME A MONARCHY EXCEPT THAT THEY COULDN'T FIND A SUITABLE KING TO INVITE OVER FROM EUROPE TO TAKE THE POSITION.


/Doomie

THE RANDOMNESS OF THE FLOW OF HISTORY IS ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF EU AND WHAT KEEPS IT INTERESTING. IF I WAS PLAYING A GAME WHERE MY MOST EXCELLENT POSITION AS SPAIN WAS TRASHED BECAUSE PORTUGAL INHERITED FRANCE THEN THAT WOULD CERTAINLY GET ME THINKING ABOUT 'WHAT MIGHT HAVE BEEN' BUT I WOULD ALSE BE FACED WITH A NEW CHALLENGE FAR BEYOND THE ABILITY OF A GAME LIKE CIV2 TO DELIVER.

REMEMBER THAT NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

/GRAHAM
 

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Originally posted by Doomdark on 05-14-2000 02:16 PM
'Furthermore, I find the concept of Royal Marriage quite suspect when applied to Republics, Holy Orders and Merchant Leagues. E.g. Hanseatic League, Teutonic Order, Venice, Netherlands, Papal States etc.

These types of nations should not be able to offer nor receive Royal Marriages, and should not be subject to inheritance.'

If I remember it right. We had this discussion once before on the list. From what I remember I had intially approximately your view, but there came up so many good arguements for it that I changed opinion. For example; the Popes of Rome were not different than any other monarch in Europe.
Alexander VI:s had many sons and daughters which he freely married for the sake of improving the papal standing. One of the Sforzas who Machiavelli talkes about, his father was the Pope... The Hansa for example used marriages with other merchantbaron in different countries to improve the status of their federation. One must look upon 'the Royal Marriage' as a larger concept.

/Greven
 

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'I have 'coaling stations' all over, notably St. Helena, Mekong, Tahiti, Kauai (Hawaii), Mahe.'

Sir ! Sir ! (a messanger buy runs up to His Majesty)

Sir! Her Majesty the Queen aske Thee of the Most Gracious Favour, would it be possible to name those new little Kauai islands after her petdog; Lord Sandwich ?

P.S. Now you now why the Brits called Hawaii the Sandwich Islands. :)

/Greven
 

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Gentlemen,

I can accept Royal Marriages for all nations, mostly because it is too late in the development process to start fiddling with the diplomatic system... However, it might not be too late to rename it 'Political Marriage' and get away clean. =)

>REPUBLICS WERE VERY SUSPECT IN EU TIMES AND WEREN'T THE AUTOMATIC CHOICE THAT THEY WOULD BE TODAY.

No need to shout, Graham - it makes you look like an AOLer. :) The rarity of Republics and the fact that they were regarded as inherently suspect is a reason as good as any why they should be deprived of the 'Royal Marriage' diplomacy option.

>THE RANDOMNESS OF THE FLOW OF HISTORY IS ONE OF THE STRENGTHS OF EU AND WHAT KEEPS IT INTERESTING.

Absolutely! And I would not even object if Turkey inherited Spain (well, not too much anyway :))... as long as Turkey was not played by a human.

I want a real challenge when I play strategy games, and let's face it - the AI is never quite up to providing one without cheating. Thus, I would have been disappointed if I had been in Scott's situation and suddenly inherited 13 provinces, making me most powerful nation in one random stroke.

>You mean apart from Bernadotte? I know he is outside the time period, but only by c.20 years.

Ah, I was being unclear. What I meant to say was that the ruler of a foreign nation would never have been allowed to inherit the throne of Sweden. This happened once with the Polish King Sigismund, but the Swedes did not accept his rule and his claim was eventually renounced. The Polish claim to the Swedish throne was the root of all the wasteful wars between Sweden and Poland in the 17th century.

Scott,

>If Turkey conquers 90% of Austria, should it still be considered a Great Power and be immune to this very rare random event?

Good point. The solution is simple and should require two or three lines of code at the most:

If a nation consists of more than a certain number (say... 7) of territories it can not be inherited (at least not by a human player ;)).

I think this is a reasonable abstraction, without delving into economic power etc.

Johan? :D

/Doomie
 

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No need to shout, Graham - it makes you look like an AOLer.


I wasn't shouting...just trying to make it clear which were my words and which were the original text I was quoting. These discussion threads make quotes of quotes essential, especially in the more complex discussions, but until we can get colour coded text we have to find other ways to identify the authorship of the various comments.

/Graham


[This message has been edited by Graham Dodge (edited 16-05-2000).]
 

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Are we o be expecting a part three to this most interesting 'mellow campaign'


????
 

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Sorry, family visiting :)

I've played through ~1650, but haven't had time to put a post together. It'll be a few more days...

Scott
 

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I apologize, I won't be continuing this AAR. I will, in the future, only post after I've finished a game. In this case, there have been a rapid succession of important patches, and rather than continue this game, I am going to move on to the most recent patch. Fun though these AARs are, my focus is on testing, not playing! Again, my apologies!

Scott
 

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Ahh, well - Don't worry about it...just hoping that this 'rapid succession' of new patches makes the next aar all the better
 

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We are good with partial retellings too. Poor bastards like us who don't get to play test need AAR's all the time to keep our appitite satisfied.