The Marriage Game

[Orinsul]

[*]Henry I of England married Matilda of Scotland, neighboring realm

Henry I of England married Edith/Maud/Matilda of Scotland, a Saxon Princess, thus legitimising his rule with his english subjects who still contested his right to rule. It has nothing to do with Scotland and makes a perfect example a strategic marriage.
And I think it was even a bad diplomatic move with Scotland as she was from the side of the civil war that didnt win and had been raised in an english monastry anyway. If the Saxon Maid has historical foundations. i think it does but then it could just be a kids book.
but the point is, the Stragetic reason for the marriage, and it was very much and very famous on was averting the rebellion and civil war, as if he hadnt married into english blood then the Anarchy would have come sooner and had all the saxons on the same side instead of just most of them and might have won and driven the normans out.

While the game does need the AI to carry out strategic marriages, the question is could a computer ever do that? Could a computer ever be able to consider diplomatic, internal stability and all the rest of it? I dont think so. Computers work on Mathematics, so isnt having it as in CK based on stats and traits the only way to do it?
As far as i understand it, to get an AI that would play the CK marriage game tactically, youd have to build a computer capable of taking over the world and enslaving the human race, and im not sure its worth it.

the best we can hope for is that CKII unlike CK goes for young and unmarried more than old and thrice widowed and that good stat DNA code doesnt lead to ugly portraits. [and yes thats eugenics but its a computer game about dynasties so think of them as dogs and it makes it pedigree so not so bad.]

 

[RedRooster81]

In CK1, the AI showed a preference for marriage partners that shared culture and religion. The devs have not yet weighed in on this issue, but could you not tag a preference based on proximity?

 

[Ruwaard]

In CK1, the AI showed a preference for marriage partners that shared culture and religion. The devs have not yet weighed in on this issue, but could you not tag a preference based on proximity?

Tagging preferences based on proximity is a great idea and I would like to add the idea that each tier should have a multiplier to determine proximity. What I'm suggesting is that a higher tier should have a wider searching area; although emperors and kings should perhaps get a similar search area, so they could get the same multiplier.

 

[RedRooster81]

Tagging preferences based on proximity is a great idea and I would like to add the idea that each tier should have a multiplier to determine proximity. What I'm suggesting is that a higher tier should have a wider searching area; although emperors and kings should perhaps get a similar search area, so they could get the same multiplier.

I was responding specifically to Orinsul's objections, with a condition to help the AI along. I agree with what you have said about giving courts different ranges based on the prestige of its monarch. One side of the problem is how to get the AI to succeed in making plausible and good marriages; the other is if the player should be restricted along the same basis. I think that this kind of mechanic was already in CK1, but to a lesser degree; just try starting as an unprestigious count and offer marriage into the family of a king or powerful duke and you'll see what I mean.

 

[Nick B II]

While the game does need the AI to carry out strategic marriages, the question is could a computer ever do that? Could a computer ever be able to consider diplomatic, internal stability and all the rest of it? I dont think so. Computers work on Mathematics, so isnt having it as in CK based on stats and traits the only way to do it?

If the AI is designed to have goals it's very easy to progam. An AI whose primary goal is to increase vassal loyalty, and secondary goal is to increase his dynasties prestige would look for brides among his vassals first, and second look for highly ranked bachelorettes. The only real technical problem here is that in CK you can have 1,000 of these AIs running at once, so if you make them so sophisticated that they all have their own goals, and so crafty they can al achieve those goals, you're gonna use a lot of processor cycles.

If the AI is not designed to have goals you just do a generic wife-choosing algorithm. When any AI has somebody to marry off they look at all available bachelorettes, give them a score based partly on the prestige gain from the marriage, partly from their current relationship with the country, etc. and then send proposals to the top chick. By changing the definition of "eligible" you can easily make it impossible for an Irish lord to marry a Nubian Princess.

BTW I'm not saying any of these ideas for an algorithm is best. I'm just saying that Paradox can implement them without much trouble.

Nick

 

[unmerged(16588)]

So I'm lazy and haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this idea has already been brought up:

Why not include a trait/modifier along the lines of "Married below his/her station." The King of England, for example, marrying the scion of anyone lower than a kingdom/duchy-tier title-holder would get this trait, which would lead to negative relation modifiers with courtiers and vassals (based on their own personalities; perhaps some would find the notion romantic?)

It would possibly be a good disincentive for higher-tier characters to marry lower-tier characters in pursuit of their very own Paul Atreides.

 

[Drachenfire]

So I'm lazy and haven't read the entire thread, so forgive me if this idea has already been brought up:

Why not include a trait/modifier along the lines of "Married below his/her station." The King of England, for example, marrying the scion of anyone lower than a kingdom/duchy-tier title-holder would get this trait, which would lead to negative relation modifiers with courtiers and vassals (based on their own personalities; perhaps some would find the notion romantic?)

It would possibly be a good disincentive for higher-tier characters to marry lower-tier characters in pursuit of their very own Paul Atreides.

Well, a good portion of the spouse's of England's kings and queens (Maude) were in fact the children of their vassal counts. In addition of to the list posted above,

• Edward I married Eleanor of Castille, Hereditary Countess of Ponthieu in her own right. Ponthieu was a direct vassal of the Duke of Normandy, thus a vassal to the King of England. Additionally, she was the daughter of St Ferdinand, King of Leon and Castille. Thus the King of England was able to marry both a vassal and also the daughter of a neighboring realm (neighboring to his holdings in Aquitaine).
• Edward II married Isabel of France, neighboring kingdom.
• Richard II married Ann of Bohemia, daughter of the Holy Roman Emperor. This is the first occasion since Empress Maude’s marriage to the Holy Roman Emperor almost a hundred years earlier that the royal house of England married outside of its own vassalage, or into a direct neighboring kingdom.
• Henry IV first married Mary de Bohum, daughter to the Marcher Earl of Hereford. Then he married Joan of Navarra, a neighboring realm.

The examples abound. It seems logicial to follow the example history gives us and while there are examples of exceptional marriage from far afield, most marriages for royalty was more or less into their own domestic high houses, or to neighboring kingdoms.

 

[Drachenfire]

If the AI is designed to have goals it's very easy to progam. An AI whose primary goal is to increase vassal loyalty, and secondary goal is to increase his dynasties prestige would look for brides among his vassals first, and second look for highly ranked bachelorettes. The only real technical problem here is that in CK you can have 1,000 of these AIs running at once, so if you make them so sophisticated that they all have their own goals, and so crafty they can al achieve those goals, you're gonna use a lot of processor cycles.

If the AI is not designed to have goals you just do a generic wife-choosing algorithm. When any AI has somebody to marry off they look at all available bachelorettes, give them a score based partly on the prestige gain from the marriage, partly from their current relationship with the country, etc. and then send proposals to the top chick. By changing the definition of "eligible" you can easily make it impossible for an Irish lord to marry a Nubian Princess.

BTW I'm not saying any of these ideas for an algorithm is best. I'm just saying that Paradox can implement them without much trouble.

Nick

My point exactly, yes. I like this, good post Nick.

 

[Wezqu]

Don't really know if someone has mentioned this before. Didn't read the whole thread but one thing that bugged me in CK was that you could decide who marries who in your dynasty even if the person was from some remote branch. I would like if in CK II you can only arrange marriages of courtiers with close family ties to the ruler. It would sound quite odd if you could order some second cousin to marry someone even if there might be some rare historic cases of this happening. I also would like to see courtiers marring on their own. In CK they just staid single until they died if you yourself didn't marry them to some member of your dynasty or some other ruler requested marriage. This would only make the game feel more realistic as people do marry even without kings orders and not always rulers or their heirs.

 

[RedRooster81]

@Drachenfire & Nick: I agree with what you have proposed; the point of marriage was tying everyone together locally vs. finding outside support (this was for example an issue in the early KoJ, whether to marry local nobles or forge a long-distance alliance with an important Latin kingdom like Sicily or France).

@Wezqu: That bugged me about CK1 too. And it conflicts with the laws and customs of the time. In Ck1, your son does not have to seek your approval of who he wants to marry if he lives away from your court, but if your fourth cousin happens to live at your court, you have to find him or her a spouse. Proximity of blood, not geography should be the deciding factor, though a wise liege might be consulted on whom one should marry, and a generous liege might help a poor female courtier find a husband from his own pocket or grant a male courtier a title to attract a good bride.

 

[Nick B II]

In CK1 they had courtier marraige for awhile.

The problem was that married courtiers had kids, so after a few generations you had tens of thousands of characters running around. The game crawled to a halt and players demanded Paradox remove the feature.

While today's computers could probably handle that many characters more competently then 2004 computers, they'd also have to give all those people ambitions, factor them into plots, etc. Keep in mind that an exponentially growing number of courtiers also means an exponentially growing number of plots...

The issues aren't impossible to resolve. Reducing the number of children some random dude married to a random chick produce could work, and even be explainable in gameplay terms -- perhaps 3/4 of the kids court hangers-on produce figure there's no point in staying at court and becoming hangers-on themselves.

But they exist, and they'd have to be overcome for this feature to be worth it.

Nick

 

[RedRooster81]

In CK1 they had courtier marraige for awhile.

The problem was that married courtiers had kids, so after a few generations you had tens of thousands of characters running around. The game crawled to a halt and players demanded Paradox remove the feature.

While today's computers could probably handle that many characters more competently then 2004 computers, they'd also have to give all those people ambitions, factor them into plots, etc. Keep in mind that an exponentially growing number of courtiers also means an exponentially growing number of plots...

The issues aren't impossible to resolve. Reducing the number of children some random dude married to a random chick produce could work, and even be explainable in gameplay terms -- perhaps 3/4 of the kids court hangers-on produce figure there's no point in staying at court and becoming hangers-on themselves.

But they exist, and they'd have to be overcome for this feature to be worth it.

Nick

Nick,

This is an issue about which I have been curious since the game was announced, and I think that you state the problem well. Doomdark has said that having vassals serve as councilors will cut down on this problem, but I wonder how else the devs plan to nip this one in the bud. Historically (and even today in most places), marriage and thus legitimate childbearing were associated with prestige, wealth, and honor. Men required the resources to support a wife and future children, while women required a dowry for similar reasons. So I can see making suggestions towards whom your vassals and immediate family should marry, but I would not like to see the landless nobility increase exponentially like an invasive species.

/Rooster

 

[LordofSaxony]

In CK1, the AI showed a preference for marriage partners that shared culture and religion. The devs have not yet weighed in on this issue, but could you not tag a preference based on proximity?

They could do something simple, like.. -5 relations that affects everyone in your own cultural group's viewpoints towards you if you marry outside of your culture. It's not a big hit since it's based out of 100, but it may cause you to weigh the worth of marrying outside of your culture for the benefits of alliances, dowry, etc. As for religion, the same could apply, a simple -5 penalty with everyone's view towards you if you marry someone outside of your religion. So if you marry someone who is both of a different culture group, as well as a different religion, you'll get a -10 penalty.

 

[unmerged(133356)]

Let us not overcomplicate this thing, and tie the player's hands out of some misguided desire to impose historical pseudoveracity.

 

[Wezqu]

There is a simple fix for the too much courtiers. Why would all the childrens need to even be listed. Like even in history many of the children of the people who worked in court didn't come themselves to work in the court even if one of their parents did. I would undestand that the children would be listed if there would be possibility of them inheriting something but when they would not then they could be ignored. Even the wife might not be needed to be listed in the court as many times their wives weren't members. Like for example in these cases there could be just a mark to show that the courtier is married and that he would have some number of childrens. We would not need their stats or ambitions at all and in some point if that courtier would be in some important station he might introduce one of his childrens to you and only then that character would be created as until that he/she would be totally unknown character outside of the court. This way only things that the game might need to know is the characters birthday and of course who is the courtier whose child he/she is.

 

[Orinsul]

There is a simple fix for the too much courtiers. Why would all the childrens need to even be listed. Like even in history many of the children of the people who worked in court didn't come themselves to work in the court even if one of their parents did. I would undestand that the children would be listed if there would be possibility of them inheriting something but when they would not then they could be ignored. Even the wife might not be needed to be listed in the court as many times their wives weren't members. Like for example in these cases there could be just a mark to show that the courtier is married and that he would have some number of childrens. We would not need their stats or ambitions at all and in some point if that courtier would be in some important station he might introduce one of his childrens to you and only then that character would be created as until that he/she would be totally unknown character outside of the court. This way only things that the game might need to know is the characters birthday and of course who is the courtier whose child he/she is.

Maybe if when a courtiers dies there would be a chance a son appears already of the age of majority to fill his position and with the late courtier as his father on the family tree
so that way the little dynasties could continue for a long time instead of dying out in the first generation as in CK but without cluttering

 

[Romanow]

Arranged marriages are very interesting. Paradox should make personal unions in CKII.

You have very interesting ideas but as I know paradox, and game engine, it'll we be impossible to do. But they are practicing with every game. Maybe they can suprise me?

 

[unmerged(133356)]

The ability to pre-arrange marriages would be gold. One of the more frustrating features of the game when you could see a potential match, but there was a slight age difference, and you had to watch like a hawk to avoid the 6 AM on birthday proposal by some other AI actor.

 

[Nick B II]

@Romanow
Remember in CK you're not playing a country, you're playing a character. Which means a personal union is just a character with two titles.

In CK1 this kinda worked. The main problem was that legal systems were atached to an individual, so if the two titles had different legal systems somebody lost out. A slightly less important problem was that evemnts gave rebels claims on a character's primary title, so in a Braveheart scenario Longshanks would keep the throne of scotland but lose England to the Bruce.

Nick

 

[unmerged(75409)]

There is a simple fix for the too much courtiers. Why would all the childrens need to even be listed. Like even in history many of the children of the people who worked in court didn't come themselves to work in the court even if one of their parents did. I would undestand that the children would be listed if there would be possibility of them inheriting something but when they would not then they could be ignored. Even the wife might not be needed to be listed in the court as many times their wives weren't members. Like for example in these cases there could be just a mark to show that the courtier is married and that he would have some number of childrens. We would not need their stats or ambitions at all and in some point if that courtier would be in some important station he might introduce one of his childrens to you and only then that character would be created as until that he/she would be totally unknown character outside of the court. This way only things that the game might need to know is the characters birthday and of course who is the courtier whose child he/she is.

+1

That's a good suggestion!! Court characters would still be either eligible or ineligible for marriage, so you could marry them to, say, a landed character - but if they don't marry a character of landed nobility, sooner or later they just get a "married to a nobody" marker and become ineligible for marriage. That could let them be part of events that check fore "married yes/no" (like the ruler infidelity events) but at the same time prevent character spam.