The Marriage Game

[vertinox]

I think marriage should be limited to geography to some degree as in CK1, a Count in Iceland is able to arrange a marriage with a Count in Iraq with no difficulty and in reality that never happened for obvious reasons.

Also, there should be a bit more difficulty in having Catholic and Orthodox marriages. This should also include a possible conversion event if the wife consents, but if father of the bride has a high religious value he may decline the marriage or conversion as they would not approve such a thing.

 

[RedRooster81]

I think marriage should be limited to geography to some degree as in CK1, a Count in Iceland is able to arrange a marriage with a Count in Iraq with no difficulty and in reality that never happened for obvious reasons.

Also, there should be a bit more difficulty in having Catholic and Orthodox marriages. This should also include a possible conversion event if the wife consents, but if father of the bride has a high religious value he may decline the marriage or conversion as they would not approve such a thing.

I agree with you, but I would say that there should be a sort of cascading limit: in other words, a liege can marry into his vassal's family, but counts, barons, and perhaps dukes should be limited to marrying within their own kingdom, especially given that marriages will form a kind of alliance in CK2.

On mixed marriages (as western canon law defines marriages between a Catholic and non-Catholic), these did occur, but relations should have to be rather high already. In CK1, you could marry into Muslim or Pagan families provided that they were your direct vassals. I wonder how it will be handled in CK2.

 

[Ruwaard]

I don't totally agree with limiting marriages to the same kingdom, especially for border areas (the periphery of the kingdom). For instance the dynasties in Flanders, Luxembourg, Lorraine, Burgundy, Holstein, etc. did arrange marriages with families on both sides of the border. Which in my opinion makes sense for (geo-) political inspired marriages; for those rulers on the borders keeping good relations with their direct neighbors is just as or even more important, than having good relations with a distant noble family from the same kingdom.

Perhaps it would be an idea to start looking for candidates from the direct neighbors regardless of borders, but once the search area is widened start preferring candidates from the same kingdom. Which in my opinion would improve the situation for rulers of the border area, without changing much for the rulers, which are further away from the border (since their direct neighbors would be in the same kingdom).

Another point is how the same kingdom is defined, for instance England or (after conquest of Wales) England & Wales, the whole Holy Roman Empire or just one of the titular kingdoms and in case if Castille-Leon exists, Castille and Leon seperate or Castille-Leon. (So one titular kingdom or all realms ruled by the same king.)

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

I agree with you, but I would say that there should be a sort of cascading limit: in other words, a liege can marry into his vassal's family, but counts, barons, and perhaps dukes should be limited to marrying within their own kingdom, especially given that marriages will form a kind of alliance in CK2.

That would mean that if you play in a small kingdom (like f.e. Denmark or Scotland) that your choices are rather limited. In fact there might not even be a suitable candidate at all for years.

IMHO restricting marriages within a kingdom or culturegroup for the player or for the AI would be bad for gameplay. Also there shouldn't be a difference in what a player can do or what the AI can do.

The AI in CK1 wasn't limited in his marriages, but usually married within his own culturegroup. A human player in CK1 wasn't restricted at all (except that you couldn't marry into non-christian courts).

Now if a player only wants to marry within in his kingdom or culturegroup he can already do that, IMHO there shouldn't be a hardcoded (or even a softcoded) limit, to who you can marry. If I as a count in Scotland want to marry a Nubian princess then I should be able to do that.

Also in reality there were alot more characters then there will ever be in CK2, so in reality nobles had much more choices then you will be able to get in the game.

If the game would only allow you to do things that counts in Ireland, Norway etc did historically then the game would be very boring.

 

[Drachenfire]

I recognize Veld and other's point. And yes the ai in CK1 usually did seek brides first withoin its cultural group, then religious group. Yet often wierd relationships did develop regularly. A Greek cultured court developing in the Gaelic Ireland, I've seen a Welsh court develop in Croatia. I think the matrix I offer does eleminate most of this by providing the AI a pathway to logical relationships. But as Veld states there is a end game there in terms of the raw numbers of brides available in CK. So, I propose that after the first five options have been exhaused.....


1.Look for marriage partners first within the same culture of the same kingdom, taking into account the most powerful nobles to the least (loyalty notwithstanding. A disloyal noble may be won over through a diplomatic marriage with their liege’s family).

2.Look for marriage partners secondly with different cultures but within the same kingdom

3.Marriage partners of the same culture within a directly neighboring kingdom or a direct trade route.

4.Marriage partners of different cultures but of the same sprite tag (similarly grouped cultures) within a directly neighboring kingdom or a direct trade route.

5.Marriage partners first of the same then of different cultures but one kingdom removed from your neighbor, though this should be an unlikely and handicapped option on the whole.



That an option 6 is opened

6. The AI looks for marriage partners from abroad, whom ever may be available based on age and prestige.

 

[Ruwaard]

I recognize Veld and other's point. And yes the ai in CK1 usually did seek brides first withoin its cultural group, then religious group. Yet often wierd relationships did develop regularly. A Greek cultured court developing in the Gaelic Ireland, I've seen a Welsh court develop in Croatia. I think the matrix I offer does eleminate most of this by providing the AI a pathway to logical relationships. But as Veld states there is a end game there in terms of the raw numbers of brides available in CK. So, I propose that after the first five options have been exhaused.....


1.Look for marriage partners first within the same culture of the same kingdom, taking into account the most powerful nobles to the least (loyalty notwithstanding. A disloyal noble may be won over through a diplomatic marriage with their liege’s family).

2.Look for marriage partners secondly with different cultures but within the same kingdom

3.Marriage partners of the same culture within a directly neighboring kingdom or a direct trade route.

4.Marriage partners of different cultures but of the same sprite tag (similarly grouped cultures) within a directly neighboring kingdom or a direct trade route.

5.Marriage partners first of the same then of different cultures but one kingdom removed from your neighbor, though this should be an unlikely and handicapped option on the whole.



That an option 6 is opened

6. The AI looks for marriage partners from abroad, whom ever may be available based on age and prestige.

A good matrix, but I still disagree about the same kingdom bit, I would prefer direct neighbors regardless of kingdom first, since this would represent the situation in border areas better, furthermore this wouldn't affect the choice of bride closer to the core of the kingdom.
For example, this would allow for the ruler of Flanders to marry to the counts of Holland, Hainaut and Artois or the duke of Brabant, but at the same time the ruler of Anjou would prefer a candidate from Brittany (Nantes for instance), Poitou and Orleans.
If there is no suitable candidate available in a neighboring court, then prefer a candidate from the same kingdom. However a candidate from the same kingdom for a king (or emperor) isn't that clear either, since they would also search for candidates in other royal courts (and sometimes very powerful foreign ducal courts).

 

[Jesenjin]

I would add a suggestion.
If, in theory, there is no eligible marriage option in given culture group, could AI generate wife for himself? Of course, stats wouldn't be good as the person in question would mostly likely come from one of richer families from demesne, or if the husband in question has certain... qualities ... she could be chosen only for beauty.
This would naturally only apply if there is hardcore limit for AI, and it could be a nice event if there is some unmarried ruler in Europe (I know chances are very, very, very slim for that, but it could add some flavor to the game, and it could happen to player if he chose it, but it would have consequences).

 

[Drachenfire]

*nod* I see that yes, and indeed that is a very local approach and I do agree with you. I do want to keep the potential marriage partners more or less local, domestically or within a neighboring court.

 

[RedRooster81]

*nod* I see that yes, and indeed that is a very local approach and I do agree with you. I do want to keep the potential marriage partners more or less local, domestically or within a neighboring court.

This I think hits on the problem of inbreeding in CK1. You need a pool of healthy partners of both genders coming from somewhere, the effect of bringing wealthy burghers and battlefield commissions perhaps. Otherwise, the gene pool shrinks rather quickly. In CK1, in some cases I had to grant land to courtiers in order to assure the next generation. It did not help that the AI horded titles, but maybe with baronies and other features of CK2 this won't be a problem.

 

[Ruwaard]

*nod* I see that yes, and indeed that is a very local approach and I do agree with you. I do want to keep the potential marriage partners more or less local, domestically or within a neighboring court.

In my opinion local doesn't have to be in the same kingdom, furthermore dukes* should have wider search areas than counts and kings and emperors should have wider search areas than dukes*. (*= or titles of ducal rank )

Generating an AI wife, would be of rather low nobility, which should be bad for prestige. Besides nobles would look for wives abroad, certainly those of ducal rank and higher.

 

[RedRooster81]

With all the debate about tiers on the Empire thread, we forgot about tier -1, the landed knight, who held less land than a baron but generally had somewhere to unsaddle his horse. I suppose that most of the courtiers in CK1 would represent this sort of titleholder, and it was their household who would supply brides to barons and counts perhaps? Just an idea of where those AI generated wives might come from. *shrug*

 

[Ruwaard]

With all the debate about tiers on the Empire thread, we forgot about tier -1, the landed knight, who held less land than a baron but generally had somewhere to unsaddle his horse. I suppose that most of the courtiers in CK1 would represent this sort of titleholder, and it was their household who would supply brides to barons and counts perhaps? Just an idea of where those AI generated wives might come from. *shrug*

Maybe for barons and younger children of a count, but not the count or his heir. Furthermore a wife generated by the AI reminds me of the country cousin heir in CK1, which is another reason, why I atleast don't really like the idea. Perhaps as an event, marry your mistress or one of your barons offers his daughter's hand in marriage and he offers a huge dowry.

 

[RedRooster81]

Maybe for barons and younger children of a count, but not the count or his heir. Furthermore a wife generated by the AI reminds me of the country cousin heir in CK1, which is another reason, why I atleast don't really like the idea. Perhaps as an event, marry your mistress or one of your barons offer his daughter's hand in marriage and he offers a huge dowry.

I agree wholly with your point. The heir apparent should get the best matches. I preferred forming second marriages for my liege within the kingdom so the eldest heir can inherit and keep all territories under one head. You do want all your sons to marry and produce heirs, but the one who stands to inherit should get the most promising bride. But at the same time, you should not run out of eligible brides (or grooms) nor have too many serious cases of inbreeding.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

In the game you play a dynastie, and the goal of the game is to increase the weath, power and most importantanly the prestige of your dynastie.

This goes for the human player and for the AI. The AI therefor should seek for partners that help him with achieving that goal.

So if the duke of Holland has a son and the king of Poland has a daughter and Poland has semi-salic law (or something like that) then the AI duke of Holland should try to marry his son to the daughter of the king of Poland.

In other words I want an AI that actively tries to 'win' the game and not a 'passive' one like in CK1, where the AI has no goals at all.

 

[Laur]

Rather than impose marriage restrictions and devise ever more complicated matrices of compatibilities, I say liberalize it all. Why wouldn't an Icelandic prince have the possibility to marry the daughter of the Emir of Oman? And why wouldn't the sister of the Mongol Khan be able to marry into the house of O'Neil? But let it not happen right at the moment after you click and select the name of the bride!
The thing that most annoyed me most about CK marriages is that, regardless of the distance between their two respective realms, the wedding happened instantly, at a click of a mouse (and sometimes you got the message that the bride is pregnant right the next day!). In reality it took months for just the marriage proposal to arrive and the negociations around it to conclude.
Furthermore, alot of things could happen during the time it took for the future wife to travel to the court of her future husband: one of them could die; the future bride could be kidnapped and held for ransom; the future husband could choose a differnt bride (esp. if the first marriage was arranged by his father against his will and the father happened to perish...);etc.etc. So, for example, if a Yngling of Norway wishes to marry a Fatimid of Egypt he should be prepared to wait for a few years and for the possibility that his future bride might drown in a shipwreck.

 

[Jesenjin]

Could it be possible to add range for this kind of thing?

Something like trade range in EU3: DW. It would be small for count, but it wouldn't be smaller than the kingdom he is part of, for duke it would be bigger, etc.
This could be modified by prestige of dynasty, by wealth of holdings, by number of titles it holds (although that could be excluded as titles add prestige) and by intrigue skill.

 

[RedRooster81]

Those are some good suggestions. Veld, the AI needs to survive and expand, so by all means. I like the idea of a Polish-Lotharingen union myself, especially if both are having problems with the Germans.

@Laur: It was suspicious how quickly marriages were consummated. Now that characters apparently have physical locations, maybe this will become more realistic?

@Jesenjin: This is also a good idea. A successful king might be able to marry his heir to any royal dynasty in the known world, but an ambitious count should be lacking in the economic resources and prestige necessary to do so. I also hope that marriage negotiations are much more detailed, with offers, counteroffers, and rejections with detailed reasons. But for gameplay purposes, some things might remain unrealistic, either because it would be too complicated to code or because it would take some of the fun out of the game.

 

[Drachenfire]

I do like the idea that it may take the potential bride or groom time to get to the court of their fiancé, that is a good idea. And the Polish-Lotharingen example is covered in number 5 of the matrix: Marriage partners first of the same then of different cultures but one kingdom removed from your neighbor, Poland and “Lotharingia” are separated only by the German lands.

Like Veld says, I do want the AI to be robust enough to plot and plan succession strategies for the survival too. But, I do not wish to see that Greek court in Ireland without some basis for that contact first… either in a trade route connection, or in a court related between the two, or an Irish colony in the Agean, ect. I respectfully disagree with Laur in this regard (but not with the idea that marriage partners should “travel” to the new court and it take actual in-game time). While I do think and know there were occasions for extra or super national marriages, these weren't the "rule" as it were, as most royal marriages occured locally rather then far afield.

*shrug*

 

[Orinsul]

but theres nothing illogical about far flung marriages, this is the age of the unity of europe. just look at how many of the anglo-saxon kings had hungarian and etc queens. once can hardly claim a geographical or trade route connection from england to hungary. And was there a boy thoughtout the west who idling his youth away with a sturdy branch for a sword didnt dream of escaping to adventure in the crusaders and marrying a princess of the byzantines. Which is both a great distance away and of differing faith.
If there is a perfectly acceptable girl int he court the ruler ought to take priority over a far flung union, especially if there is no political gain to such an action.
but there should be no limitations, and especially not arbitary limitations based on mathmatics or culture definiton.

altough an age limitation would be good, as it was well annoying to see your son freshly given land of his own marry a sixty something widow, messes up the character sheet with an unexplanable ex-wife. especially if she took ages to die so by the time he had a wife young enough to have kids he was too old and sickly to have a good chance of an heir.

 

[Drachenfire]

Yes, there were occasions when the upper most echelon of royalty and the most powerful of dukes were able to marry within a royal or great house within a neighboring court or a court along an important trade route. But, really most royal marriage, at least for the first 100 years from 1066 onwards, was domestic.

Throughout the period covered in CK, marriage partners tended to be of the domestic nobility or directly neighboring realm. A king was more likely to marry the daughter of a powerful duke then he was a neighboring princess. Likewise, that same king was most likely to marry his heir and other children to his own powerful vassals in an attempt to bind them to him through familial bonds. Exceptions did exist of course, such as Alfonso VI of Leon’s marriage strategy to attract cross-Pyrenees alliances by marrying French heiresses. Additionally, Henry I of England married his daughter (and future heir) Matilda to the Holy Roman Emperor in an attempt to build relations with Germany to diplomatically out-flank France. And there was a Russian princess in the Scottish court in the mid-11th century! - Though I haven't fully vetted the circumstance behind that.

Yet, most Norman and Plantagenet rulers married domestically, or married into neighboring countries building diplomatic relations.

• William the Conqueror married Matilda of Flanders, neighboring realm
• Henry I of England married Matilda of Scotland, neighboring realm
• Henry’s heir Empress Matilda married Geoffrey of Anjou, neighboring realm. Matilda had first married the Holy Roman Emperor, one realm away from France.
• Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine, one realm away from Normandy
• Richard the Lion-heart married Berengaria of Navarre (or he married her brother Sancho!) Navarre was an important neighbor to Richard’s Aquitaine.
• John married Isabella, Countess of Angouleme (an important county and vassal of Aquitaine), and John had a favorite but illegitimate daughter
• Joan married to Llywelyn, Prince of Wales and Gwynedd.
• Henry III married Eleanor of Provence, an important county next to Aquitaine

What I propose is for the AI to take into account the kingdom and its neighbors, and value potential marriage partners based on their prestige (prestige reckoned partially in their social ranking- royal family, ducal family, comitial family, but also on their nearness to inheriting).

It's a preference, but if it seems to complicated then its not something Ill get my panties in a bunch over