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Drachenfire

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I had initially suggested this for Cool Toxic's Dark Ages Dynasties CK clone, but thought they may be of interest here too.


The Marriage Game


The matrix for the ai to pursue marriage is somewhat perplexing, but one can see the reasoning behind it. It works like so: the ai first looks for potential marriage partners within its own culture, then those cultures closely associated with their own (based on the “sprit”), failing this the ai looks for potential brides within its own religion (Catholic, then Orthodox). I can see the attempt here, but in my opinion the matrix is still flawed, because it is possible for an AI ruler in Ireland to get a Byzantine bride wisked across Europe where there had not been any connection beforehand.


Throughout the period covered in CK, marriage partners tended to be of the domestic nobility or directly neighboring realm. A king was more likely to marry his sons and daughters to those of a powerful duke then he was a neighboring princess. Likewise, that same king was most likely to marry his heir and other children to his own powerful vassals in an attempt to bind them to him through familial bonds. Exceptions did exist of course, such as Alfonso VI of Leon’s marriage strategy to attract cross-Pyrenees alliances by marrying French heiresses. Additionally, Henry I of England married his daughter (and future heir) Matilda to the Holy Roman Emperor in an attempt to build relations with Germany to diplomatically out-flank France. And there was a Russian princess in the Scottish court in the mid 11th century! - though I haven't fully vetted the circumstance behind that.

Yet, most Norman and Plantagenet rulers married domestically, or married into neighboring countries building diplomatic relations. William the Conqueror married Matilda of Flanders. Henry I of England married Matilda of Scotland. Henry’s heir Empress Matilda married Geoffrey of Anjou. Henry II married Eleanor of Aquitaine. Richard the Lion-heart married Berengaria of Navarre (or he married her brother Sancho! Navarre was an important neighbor to Richard’s Aquitaine) John married Isabella, Countess of Angoulême (an important county in Aquitaine), and John had a favorite but illegitimate daughter Joan married to Llywelyn, Prince of Wales and Gwynedd.

What I propose is for the AI to take into account the kingdom and its neighbors, and value potential marriage partners based on their prestige (prestige reckoned partially in their social ranking- royal family, ducal family, comitial family, but also on their nearness to inheriting).

An AI would

  1. Look for marriage partners first within the same culture of the same kingdom, taking into account the most powerful nobles to the least (loyalty notwithstanding. A disloyal noble may be won over through a diplomatic marriage with their liege’s family).
  2. Look for marriage partners secondly with different cultures but within the same kingdom
  3. Marriage partners of the same culture within a directly neighboring kingdom or a direct trade route.
  4. Marriage partners of different cultures but of the same sprite tag (similarly grouped cultures) within a directly neighboring kingdom or a direct trade route.
  5. Marriage partners first of the same then of different cultures but one kingdom removed from your neighbor, though this should be an unlikely and handicapped option on the whole.


The AI would also need to be intelligent enough to wait for an important heiress and potential mate to mature



Once the happy nuptials are complete and the wedded couple are in happy bliss, the handsome husband sweeps his new bride off to his family’s court or, if he is lucky, his own newly established court. Under most succession laws this does not prove unsatisfactory. However, for the player of absolute cognatic primogeniture (*raises hand*), and under male preference primogeniture (Spain, Aquitania, comitial France) the bride may be the heir of her parent’s domain. If this is so it proves perplexing for the player, as the player would not be able to grant any titles to his heiress as he would an heir male.

I had once devised a complicated matrix in which the heiress would remain in her father’s court, but I have decided on an easier solution. Basically, allow another diplomatic option that would allow the player to target the court where his character’s heiress has been whisked away to, and allow the player to scroll down a list of their courtiers, and allow him to grant a title to that courtier in much the same way as he can for his own courtiers. This has the beauty of flexibility, allowing the player to target other characters that otherwise would make great vassals.

In this way, the player would still be able to grant his heiress a title and for her to aquire the prestige and the gold that comes with it, much like any heir male would.

What do you think?
 
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Ruwaard

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I totally agree, the ai marriage policy in CK 1 also didn't make sense to me. Maybe the search area and the tier level should be related; a king is more likely to marry an important foreign bride than a count. Furthermore importance should also increase with distance; for instance the king of England wouldn't marry the daughter of a Polish count, but he may (although not likely) marry a daughter of the king of Poland. To further elaborate on this example: an earl is even unlikely to marry a Polish princess.
Related to this is, that with a three tier, marriage with a distance a two tiers in rank, are less likely (although that would be covered by comital, ducal and royal prestige).
Yet another idea is ambition, a candidate from a higher tier (most common one tier higher) and/or heiress is the prefered candidate.
 
Last edited:

JRHINDO

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And marriage possibilities should be limited in range depending on country rank (county, duchy...), and perhaps depending on prestige too.

I dont see the count of iceland marrying the king of nubia's daughter IRL, yet the king france could marry a russian 'royal' daughter (even if its far).
 

Jon F. Zeigler

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Yeah, you'll want to maintain the possibility of a distant marriage. King Henri I of France married Anne of Kiev, and it's possible (although not proven) that the wife of the English prince Edgar the Exile was one of Anne's sisters. (Although that didn't involve as much distance, since Edgar was visiting the Hungarian court at the time, and the King of Hungary had married yet a third sister from the same branch of the Rurikovich dynasty.)

It didn't happen all that often, though, and it's interesting that all those examples come from the same family in the same generation. One gathers that Grand Prince Yaroslav was engaged in a deliberate policy of seeking ties with the West.
 
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The Russian princess in Scottish court is an interesting case of a man with an crazy idea. So this was this Prince of Novgorod and Kiev Yaroslav I the Wise who married three of his daughters to foreign princes living in Kiev in exile.

* Elizabeth of Kiev to Harald III of Norway (who had attained her hand by his military exploits in the Byzantine Empire);
* Anastasia of Kiev to the future Andrew I of Hungary;
* Anne of Kiev married Henry I of France and was the regent of France during their son's minority;
* (possibly) Agatha who married Edward the Exile, of the royal family of England, and was the mother of Edgar Ætheling and St. Margaret of Scotland.
 

LordofSaxony

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I would just like to see 'arranged marriages' in the game, for political and diplomatic reasons. What better way to secure an alliance, than to marry off your daughter to their prince, and vice versa?
 

Ruwaard

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I would just like to see 'arranged marriages' in the game, for political and diplomatic reasons. What better way to secure an alliance, than to marry off your daughter to their prince, and vice versa?

Yes, but all suggestions in this thread are made to get marriages, which would better represent the political reality in game.
 

unmerged(31881)

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The Russian princess in Scottish court is an interesting case of a man with an crazy idea. So this was this Prince of Novgorod and Kiev Yaroslav I the Wise who married three of his daughters to foreign princes living in Kiev in exile.

* Elizabeth of Kiev to Harald III of Norway (who had attained her hand by his military exploits in the Byzantine Empire);
* Anastasia of Kiev to the future Andrew I of Hungary;
* Anne of Kiev married Henry I of France and was the regent of France during their son's minority;
* (possibly) Agatha who married Edward the Exile, of the royal family of England, and was the mother of Edgar Ætheling and St. Margaret of Scotland.

Gytha, daughter of Harold Godwinson to Vladimir, Yaroslav's grandson.

Evpraksiya, sister of Vladimir, married Henry IV, HREmperor.

Some fairly high-level dynastic ties with England, France, Germany, Norway, Hungary, Scotland at/near scenario start.

Regarding marriages; betrothals i think would be an excellent addition. (Especially with regards to your own sons! i hate them running off and marrying the most obnoxious nitwit of an enemy rival dynasty that i just spent the last century systematically dismantling.)
 

Drachenfire

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Gytha, daughter of Harold Godwinson to Vladimir, Yaroslav's grandson.

Evpraksiya, sister of Vladimir, married Henry IV, HREmperor.


Some fairly high-level dynastic ties with England, France, Germany, Norway, Hungary, Scotland at/near scenario start.

Regarding marriages; betrothals i think would be an excellent addition. (Especially with regards to your own sons! i hate them running off and marrying the most obnoxious nitwit of an enemy rival dynasty that i just spent the last century systematically dismantling.)

Yes, there were exceptions. I was familure with the Russian princess in Scotland at the 1066 start. For this, yes the player should have the choice to make exceptional marriages.
 

The Kingmaker

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I think that there should definitely be factors making it easier to marry local or neighboring women. However, the higher you climb on the social ladder, the farther afield you should be able to search for a bride. Everybody should be aware of the more prominent kings' daughters.
 

Caranorn

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Yes, there were exceptions. I was familure with the Russian princess in Scotland at the 1066 start. For this, yes the player should have the choice to make exceptional marriages.

I think this actually speaks for a system of like culture (as in 1066 the Kievan Rus rulers I expect were still culturally related to scandinavians and thereby to Anglo-Saxons in England and Scotland etc.). Or maybe just that at that time the Kievan Rus were much closer linked to the west than they would be in following generations...

What really should be in the game is that there'd have to be a good reason to have ties between distant dynasts. The Kievans in 1066 would have such ties to Byzanthium and any places in between along the russian river system, to Scandinavia and Britain (in addition to remaining cultural similarities also the travel of Varangians to Byzantium). The marriages of that generation would then briefly enhance such ties with those areas...

Actually as i wrote these lines i got an idea...

How about a
 

Drachenfire

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I think this actually speaks for a system of like culture (as in 1066 the Kievan Rus rulers I expect were still culturally related to scandinavians and thereby to Anglo-Saxons in England and Scotland etc.). Or maybe just that at that time the Kievan Rus were much closer linked to the west than they would be in following generations...

What really should be in the game is that there'd have to be a good reason to have ties between distant dynasts. The Kievans in 1066 would have such ties to Byzanthium and any places in between along the russian river system, to Scandinavia and Britain (in addition to remaining cultural similarities also the travel of Varangians to Byzantium). The marriages of that generation would then briefly enhance such ties with those areas...

Actually as i wrote these lines i got an idea...

How about a

Hahah, I think part of your train of thought was lost!

But by the by, why again was there a Scottish/Russian connection exactly? I admit this is one connection I haven't looked deeply into but am curious.
 

Caranorn

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Sorry pressed submit by accident. But this is best written in a different post anyhow...

How about a marriage map mode. On the marriage/fosterling/diplomatic mapmode you'd see only places you have recent contact with. Be it because you had an army travel through an area, because one of your close relatives is married to someone from such a place, because a fosterling was placed there, because of some event (pilgrimmage to the Holy Sepulcre, your ruler travels there by land and a series of new places along the way appear on your mar/fos/dip map, or just random news events from a far away realm making one capital province appear where something important just happened). Character (including ai) could only diplomatically approach characters whose capital appears on that map. Locations on the map would also expire (at different rates depending on how they came to be visible to you), so if your army travelled through Croatia on it's way to the Jerusalem Crusade and you did not immediately cease the opportunity to propose a marriage (or other treaty) you'd lose the opportunity within lets say a year or two (you could propose an ambassy which would then move one of your prestigious courtiers to that location and keep the link open longer). Still a rough idea that I write down here as I pursue it. Probably any diplomatic offer coming from someone not on your map would be very unlikely to find even a reply, not even mentionning the low probability of a positive reply (prestige playing a big role here, personal, family and the realm's king's)...

The idea behind this being that both human and ai could not have dealings with places they don't have any recent news from. Events like William the Bastard conquering England (or Harold Godwinson defeating Harald Hardrada) would spread to far away lands like the Rus Principalities. Some count subjugating a barony obviously would not spread further than a few counties (and province proximity would mean automatic presence on the marriage map, as would liege lords and vassals)...
 

Drachenfire

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Sorry pressed submit by accident. But this is best written in a different post anyhow...

How about a marriage map mode. On the marriage/fosterling/diplomatic mapmode you'd see only places you have recent contact with. Be it because you had an army travel through an area, because one of your close relatives is married to someone from such a place, because a fosterling was placed there, because of some event (pilgrimmage to the Holy Sepulcre, your ruler travels there by land and a series of new places along the way appear on your mar/fos/dip map, or just random news events from a far away realm making one capital province appear where something important just happened). Character (including ai) could only diplomatically approach characters whose capital appears on that map. Locations on the map would also expire (at different rates depending on how they came to be visible to you), so if your army travelled through Croatia on it's way to the Jerusalem Crusade and you did not immediately cease the opportunity to propose a marriage (or other treaty) you'd lose the opportunity within lets say a year or two (you could propose an ambassy which would then move one of your prestigious courtiers to that location and keep the link open longer). Still a rough idea that I write down here as I pursue it. Probably any diplomatic offer coming from someone not on your map would be very unlikely to find even a reply, not even mentionning the low probability of a positive reply (prestige playing a big role here, personal, family and the realm's king's)...

The idea behind this being that both human and ai could not have dealings with places they don't have any recent news from. Events like William the Bastard conquering England (or Harold Godwinson defeating Harald Hardrada) would spread to far away lands like the Rus Principalities. Some count subjugating a barony obviously would not spread further than a few counties (and province proximity would mean automatic presence on the marriage map, as would liege lords and vassals)...

I LOVE this idea!!!

Also, expanding on this, how about an option to somehow... track certain titles/regions/dynasties? I have to admit I tend to play very locally, and half that spam is just junk to me. I wish there was a way to following certain regions, titles, and families and have only them appear in my events log. Does this make sense?
 

Caranorn

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Hahah, I think part of your train of thought was lost!

But by the by, why again was there a Scottish/Russian connection exactly? I admit this is one connection I haven't looked deeply into but am curious.

Scotish being in part Anglo-Saxon and Norse culture at that point and the Anglo-Saxons and of course Norse of the 11th century having a connection to the formerly Scandinavian Rus along the road to Constantinople.. But I'm neither a specialist of Scotland nor of Rus. So that connection might indeed be very tenous or inexistant (post William's Conquest the connection would definitelly be there as the Varingian guard became majority Anglo-Saxon)...
 

Caranorn

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I LOVE this idea!!!

Also, expanding on this, how about an option to somehow... track certain titles/regions/dynasties? I have to admit I tend to play very locally, and half that spam is just junk to me. I wish there was a way to following certain regions, titles, and families and have only them appear in my events log. Does this make sense?

I understand what you mean. This certainly makes sense if you already have a connection with that region and a way to keep the connection alive (you being count of Luxembourg, your daughter which you married off to the some duke in the Balkans whom you met on pilgrimmage writing back to you (well some cleric writing) telling about notable news from her new home...
 

Jon F. Zeigler

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But by the by, why again was there a Scottish/Russian connection exactly? I admit this is one connection I haven't looked deeply into but am curious.

The connection with Scotland was mostly accidental (and not definitively proven in any case). Edward the Exile married while he was traveling in Eastern Europe. His wife was a woman named "Agatha" whose family origins are unknown - but a lot of people speculate that she was a Rurikovich and sister to the "Anne of Kiev" who became Queen of France about the same time. Then after the Norman Conquest Agatha and her children ended up in exile in Scotland, and her daughter Margaret became the second wife of King Malcolm III. So some of the later kings of Scotland may have had a bit of Russian ancestry and been distant cousins to the Capetian line in France. And since one of Margaret's daughters ended up marrying Henry I of England, some of that ancestry got into the Norman and Plantagenet lines too.
 
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Jon F. Zeigler

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One factor in the "marriage game" that might be relevant is the Church's tendency to get sticky about consanguineous relationships. If we're going to be presented with a ranked list of potential brides, it might be interesting to be able to see which ones are already first, second, or third cousins. And you might have to deal with an angry Church if you pick someone too closely related - or get a dispensation from a friendly Pope or Patriarch.

Of course, this would require that the CKII engine be better at computing blood relationships than the CKI engine was. I seem to recall that you couldn't marry your own mother, sister, or daughter in that game, but just about anything else was okay.
 

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One factor in the "marriage game" that might be relevant is the Church's tendency to get sticky about consanguineous relationships. If we're going to be presented with a ranked list of potential brides, it might be interesting to be able to see which ones are already first, second, or third cousins. And you might have to deal with an angry Church if you pick someone too closely related - or get a dispensation from a friendly Pope or Patriarch.

Of course, this would require that the CKII engine be better at computing blood relationships than the CKI engine was. I seem to recall that you couldn't marry your own mother, sister, or daughter in that game, but just about anything else was okay.

Another interesting aspect there. You could press that marriage anyhow and if no children or particularly sons are born off it have the marriage annuled by the pope due to cosanguinity...