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Zsrai

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You have all right to decide on which basis you build your own map but this argument and the "ESO is a bad game" one just make you look like angry nerds. Just say you prefer to keep the same map and you didn't like ESO personally.
I don't care about ESO as a game, I care about it as a vehicle for the lore. It is bad as the latter, but I hear actually pretty good as the former.
 

Stars_and_Bars

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I think I'll never understand the "looks ugly" argument about High Rock here. You're jsut used to anothere representation, that's all. Nothing is objectively ugly about High Rock's shape here. It's just a Scandinavia-like peninsula. Hew's Bane is a lot worse than this. And what should we say about those convenient mono-ethnic (mono-mer?) isles?


You have all right to decide on which basis you build your own map but this argument and the "ESO is a bad game" one just make you look like angry nerds. Just say you prefer to keep the same map and you didn't like ESO personally.
The shape of highrock in the anthology map is crooked, and overall it's not that disgusting. What's disgusting is the ESO map. I know it makes sense in an mmo to have these huge bays for each city so that there's a vista to look at, but this is a global map. When you look at most of europe, you won't even be able to see most of the port bays for each city unless you zoom in a lot in google maps.

I don't mean to be offensive, but nobody cares about hew's bane, mostly because very few people care about red-guards. The Mono-ethnic, mono-mer isles exist like such because the altmer and maormer make it so. They are elitists, purist, etc. Now for an mmo, that would be boring, because you want everyone to experience certain parts of the map, but this isn't an mmo.

ESO is not a bad MMO, I like it as an MMO, but it's not good for the lore of the rest of the games, and for the most part we shouldn't rely on it for the lore of mod IMO.
 

Ivir Baggins

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ESO is not a bad MMO, I like it as an MMO, but it's not good for the lore of the rest of the games, and for the most part we shouldn't rely on it for the lore of mod IMO.
I don't like what Zenimax are doing with it either. But it exists, and generally lore that exists is better than lore that doesn't. Would certainly rank it as more reliable than Kirkbride's c0da stuff at least.
 

Zsrai

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I don't like what Zenimax are doing with it either. But it exists, and generally lore that exists is better than lore that doesn't. Would certainly rank it as more reliable than Kirkbride's c0da stuff at least.
It's only more reliable because it's official (and MK's stuff is... fueled by hallucinogens?) I'd hesitate to say that just because it exists that makes it better than lore that doesn't; just shoe-horning stuff in for the sake of an MMO doesn't make it good lore because it "fills in gaps". Filling in gaps poorly is worse than leaving it open to the imagination or interpretation.
 

Wandering Sentinel

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That also fails to factor in that we can never actually know if the lore that exists truly is better than the lore that doesn't since, by definition, we can't know what the latter is until some of it becomes the former or someone creates a theory involving it. For instance, the disappearance of the Dwemer is never explicitly explained, so it could be anything from them ceasing to exist to actually achieving their goal. One of my own personal favorite ideas is that tapping into the Heart brought them into contact with some being that judged them, deemed them guilty of their crimes as a race, and trapped them in some plane of Oblivion/somewhere else to suffer until they choose to atone for their crimes. That's an example of lore that might be, but isn't, and there's countless other possibilities that go beyond the official theories.
 

exin

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So, on the subject of map, our Map of Tamriel has gone through various modifications over the years. Now, while it does have some sources of inspiration, it was never designed to be 100% lore like in a geographical sense. Ratel had prioritized it's playability over lore-iness. So even if you find a 100% Bethesda-Todd-Howard-licked-in-the-donkey approved map, if it looks cartoonish and ridiculous as some provinces do in the Lore offered maps, we will not update the map to look like that.

Playability trumps lore-iness. Hence why our Skyrim does not look like the TES: Skyrim map. Ratel had made the effort to offer a general similarity between our map and the various lore maps, but has decided on our approach of the map to allow for more provinces and more space in each High Kingdom so you don't conquer Elsweyr or High Rock in 2 years.

After all, a RPG map is not really suited for a Strategy game. In a RPG game or MMORPG, you do not want your players to waste valuable play time walking around pointlessly, you want to reduce large walking time sinks so you do not end up with a Walking Simulator game. But in Strategy games, you need big maps, large areas to provide an ample sandbox for players to play in, because if the map is small, the enjoyment doesn't last that much because the game becomes a much shorter experience as well.

As for ESO, it's not the next coming of Todd Howard, but we do use to fill in the blanks were we do not have a already established lore detail from the other games. If ESO contradicts a TES game the TES game takes priority, due to the nature of MMOs and the compromises they make when it comes to world building and universe lore. See WoW for ridiculous lore :p.

Hope this offers a satisfying answer to some of the questions and curiosities raised here.
 

Ruisuki

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what are the main differences between the map in the game and the one in the mod?
 

exin

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Lots of geography. That's the main difference. I mean the obvious examples are High Rock and Elsweyr, in our Map they are pretty big and rounded, allowing for a pretty decent provincial setup. In the Lore Maps, High Rock is a stick broken in 3 parts and Elsweyr is a deflated balloon. If we were to remodel our map after the lore one, we'd have to cut at least half of the provinces from each of those High Kingdoms.
 

lordfrivolous

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By the way, slightly on topic, where is Isle of Artaeum? I have not been able to find it. Was it considered insignificant enough not to be included, or doesn't anyone know where it actually is?
 

AlanerPolska

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By the way, slightly on topic, where is Isle of Artaeum? I have not been able to find it. Was it considered insignificant enough not to be included, or doesn't anyone know where it actually is?
By the time of the first bookmark in Elder Kings, Isle of Artaeum is already gone. Because it is impossible to make provinces appear and disappear, then the Artaeum was not included on the map.
 

Arcvalons

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Lots of geography. That's the main difference. I mean the obvious examples are High Rock and Elsweyr, in our Map they are pretty big and rounded, allowing for a pretty decent provincial setup. In the Lore Maps, High Rock is a stick broken in 3 parts and Elsweyr is a deflated balloon. If we were to remodel our map after the lore one, we'd have to cut at least half of the provinces from each of those High Kingdoms.
There's also some less obvious differences, such as Windhelm. In the mod's map it is directly located in the Sea of Ghosts coast, while official maps since TES5 have it further down south connected to the Sea of Ghosts by a river.
 

Ivir Baggins

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There's also some less obvious differences, such as Windhelm. In the mod's map it is directly located in the Sea of Ghosts coast, while official maps since TES5 have it further down south connected to the Sea of Ghosts by a river.
It's coastal in the same way London's coastal. Yeah, it's actually on a river, but it's at the point where if you put a port there you can get to the sea no problem.
 

Lysistrata

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I've always hated Skyrim's internal borders in EK. Eastmarch, The Rift, Falkreath, Whiterun, The Reach...a lot of the holds' de-jure borders are way off, certainly going by TESV (plus Lake Honrich and Lake Jorgrim have their names mixed up). I'd also like to see Morrowind redone to be more similar to Tamriel Rebuilt.
 
Last edited:

Emilersej

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I'd also like to see Morrowind redone to be more similar to Tamriel Rebuilt.
I'm actually working on that! There will at least be an update of province names in the next update of my submod...
 

Lysistrata

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I'm actually working on that! There will at least be an update of province names in the next update of my submod...
Oh that's cool! Ever since seeing the TR maps, having Blacklight occupying the place where Uld Vraech should be made it literally unplayable. Now that I think about it, it might be a good idea to move Bleakrock to the same duchy as Uld Vraech if it ever ended up in EK...
 

Suraru

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I've been working on a submod total remaking of the map. I've poured over a dozen maps, both official and fanmade, and made an album detailing my process.

https://imgur.com/a/fDJDX3J

I came to three different maps to use; jungle Cyrodiil w/ many rivers coming from Lake Rumare and a much wider Telvanis, the current anthology compromise by Lady Neravar, and some kind of mix between the two. I've settled on the mix, but currently I'm a bit unsure how it'll be received. I might end up just creating and releasing all three versions, given only two provinces would require different maps.

The album goes into detail with my sources and design decisions, and I think you'll find it very informative. Right now I'm producing a heightmap created from the single player games, stretched to accommodate the landmasses so it looks professional, nostalgic, and recognizable. I haven't tested it in game yet, I've been using a variety of tools to smooth and test how it would look in a 3D setting. Right now the resolution is around 8000 pixels (divisible by 64) so I may need to shrink and re-smooth it if I find performance issues.

As for the political map, it should be able to handle all of the territories, but I may need to add a lot more for the larger landmass. I'll get to that bridge when I come to it, for compatibility my goal is to simple refit the current territories so I don't break anything.
 

Johan11

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I mean, the High Rock thing is an matter of taste, I'd say.

I have no issues with most of High Rock as it is; Iliac Bay tends to vary in size from source to source, so it's always been hard for me to pin down. I would say that it stitches onto Skyrim very weirdly. The part of the province up by Farrun and Jehanna looks off somehow, but I cannot figure out exactly what is wrong, so I cannot suggest a solution.

My only real issue with the map is that I cannot help but feel that Windhelm and Winterhold are placed very wrongly. As far as I'm aware, Winterhold should be out towards the edge of the coast, North and slightly East of Windhelm. In EK, Windhelm is further East. THAT bit bugs me.

So yeah: 1. High Rock looks alright (I personally like the jagged, Norway-fjord-like feel it has in some maps, but for the outer parts, I understand the compromise to get provinces in there). I just feel it looks somehow a bit off up near Jehanna.

And 2. I also cannot shake the feeling that Windhelm and/or Winterhold are just in the wrong place.

But as it has been said multiple times, it is not a priority. Really, the makers are doing a sterling job, and cartography quibbles can always be sorted out down the line.

(I realise I say this having just made the pettiest of cartography quibbles in the suggestions thread (Namely, noting that the mod spells "Evermor" as "Evermore"), but let's all agree that I'm a smelly hypocrite and move on.)
 

Suraru

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The spelling errors, like Valkwasten and Evermor have already been taken care of in the SVN. I griped about Falkcrenth for a bit, not realizing it's a cultural name depending on who owns the territory (which is pretty cool).

The Devs said they won't touch the map, it's a ton of work to fix a few cosmetic details. Which is why I'm taking it upon myself to do it, I'll donate it to them if they want to use it in the next release, otherwise it'll be apart of a side mod I'm creating which also already includes a lot more TES music from Beyond Skyrim and ESO, and cultural tracks to remove all the nordic music unless you're playing nords, while also still allowing vanilla music. Also it might include khajiit's becoming nomadic if I can figure out how to do that, but I need to get the music and map done first. Since I'm redoing the whole map, I'm doing a lot more than just extending a territory. Improved heightmap, more detailed terrain, maybe even more territories I haven't gotten to that part yet, I'm currently building the heightmap.

Check out the album imgur links I shared in the post above yours. It includes all of the official maps super imposed over each other with breakdowns and descriptions, as well as links to work other people have done trying to find "the most true and lore accurate" map. Considering Tamriel changes every release in sometimes dramatic ways, it hasn't been easy.
 

kvk

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I love the map, sounds like an interesting submod you're making, appropriate music sounds amazing.
 

Soulbourne

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Woot, more jungle cyrodil! Even if it requires reverting multiple retcons between oblivion and ESO to justify making it a propper jungle region :p

That said, I also disagree with the comprimises to lore for playability not just on ESO but other games too. Like in skyrim how you can actually control your werewolf form freely with some questionable justification of making a deal with hircine-since simply being a werebeast condemns your soul to his domain, not to mention other werewolves lack contol and even the circle lacks the players control. Used to be you had to eat a black soul every time you transformed or you grew weak and eventually died.

Alongside that, the vampire thing of having most debuffs removed such as death by sunlight and other things. While they've tried to give this or that justification for it, they've really just dumbed it down too much to have a point for gameplay reasons. Course as soon as ESO was announced I already knew that vampires and werewolves would be straightforward with no real drawbacks, at best would be weakened to the point of being more cosmetic. The idea of making an MMO where something hindered the players for their choices is a pretty foreign idea these days.

Alongside that the fact that the nordic pantheon is mentioned in skyrim but only in tangent. The imperial cult of the eight divines, founded by allesia, was a cult that combined the 8 aedra that both the nordic pantheon and elven pantheon shared. Both sides had other gods as well, and while this was meant to be common ground between them, both did cling to their own variations even if the strength of the imperial cult allowed them to see a common ground in diplomacy and such. However, there are also other gods, lorkhan is basically the devil of the elven pantheon, known as shor in the norse pantheon. Alongside that even after overthrowing the dragons aldiun was still revered as a god by the nords even into the third era, just an evil god who sought to dominate and destroy and who should be feared not sought after. Ysgrimmor is referenced as an oath-and justifiably since he was raised up to godhood after his death much like talos. Ysgrimmor and the founder of the mede dynasty both basically were the men who became gods before talos, and in fact talos while recognized by the cult wasn't the primary god of men throughout the cult. In morrowind your actually charged by the imperial legion to slaughter an entire coven of talos worshippers-apparently they want to kill the emporer for being unworthy of the throne of tiber septim.

That said, skyrim does hide the truths of the lore well even if a lot of it is streamlined. The imperials have but farmer conscripts because all the imperial legions are on the southern border preparing for war, though apparently a note appears in a fort to the south if you follow the stormcloaks questline saying that when the pass thaws a full legion is prepared to march and subjigate skyrim once more-a propper legion that tulius always pines for. Alongside that there are indications in various places such as the fact that the thalmor consider ulfric an asset who is helping their war efforts ever since they released him from captivity in the great war. The more humans who kill themselves the slower the empire can repopulate it's legions-and the only thing humans are supperior at to elves in cold hard numbers is reproducing. A single elf warrior from birth to becoming a graduated warrior basically has lived through 3 generations of humans. That's a lot of time for extra sons. Alongside that it also indicates the thalmor agenda which is remove the worship of talos, so he's too weak to prevent the genocide of all humans, so that their faith doesn't interfere with thalmor killing auri-el, which then will unmake time so that lorkhan's betrayal never happened, and they will return to their status as gods.

I'm less familiar with ESO's lore contributions, but I imagine it does add some good things. Like I hear the deadric pirate trapped below winterhold in an unmarked quest is a boss battle in ESO at the anchors. Though I still didn't expect them to frame the games main quest as you the PC being the one chosen hero who can save the world-since that loses a lot of narrative weight when there's a million one chosen heroes. Was more expecting something like an NPC to be said hero and you being a tag along for the main quest or something if they went that route. Or perhaps a slightly more sandbox main quest.