The many problems of Galactic Custodianship

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117Killer

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Imo i think the custodian is in fact done correctly, if the aim is to simulate the Republican Rome version of the position. Someone is given extraordinary and extreme powers in order to resolve a crisis, because nothing else will actually hope to address the problem, since the voting body is too mired in politics and factionalism to fix it. Maybe one of he factions themselves is the danger to the greater good but law and due process prevent there removal. Maybe an external rapidly evolving threat that requires unilateral action to handle.

Giving one entity emergency power in this way is always an exchange of representation and fairness, for expediency. And very frequently the body doing the election knows at least in a passive sense that this could go right down the toilet to despotism, they just hope it does not, and the elected actually returns power as stipulated, because the alternative is something like annihilation or mass collapse of society.

A custodian is duely elected and nominally a more secure position of power because he does so at the behest of the community that installs him, and thus has public and poltical opinion behind him. An emperor discards this popular support in order to do away with anyone else haveing the levers of law against them.

Custodian, a populist hero safe in his adoration(or at least his term limit). An emperor, a despot on a throne ever on guard lest someone stab them in the back for the throne. Who do think has more freedom of action?


That said i think the custodian does have a little to much leeway atm, because there is no mechanism to rate there performance and no meaningful restrictions on when they can be elected. You just say i wanna be defacto king of the galaxy, yes/no after the GC has been around awhile. that's it, no active crisis, no threat to the greater good just i wanna. That part makes no sense.

Rating performance is however a huge kettle of fish, because not only does it need have some concrete metrics, those metrics also need to be subject to manipulation, both negative and positive, because this "performance" is political subjectivity to the electing body. Slander, spin, and all the rest of the cesspit needs to be able to corrupt the value. How do you execute blatant free for all "cheating" in a game where almost everything is exposed and on the table?

I get that they're doing this with the intention of confronting an large external threat, but it doesn't change the fact that there's nothing inherent to the position of custodian which actually makes you BE a custodian.

And as far as the public opinion thing, in the game that prompted me to make this post, i was HATED by the wider galaxy, i'd committed damn genocide, a couple time actually. I'm the most hated empire in the galaxy, but due to sheer size of diplo weight, i became the Custodian. and then proceeded to abuse the hell out of that power from the outset, never actually performing my role as Custodian.

As for actually rating your performance, it could be a simple as giving the Custodian a reward for either defeating one of the Crisis outright or even a reward based on Crisis ship kills, station kills Ect. if missions issued by the council where implemented then those would further add to the total.

Or hell, make it basic. Gimme a timer which i have to kill SOME crisis ships in or i loose the position of Custodian. And again, a timer that can be extended or removed through laws.

The rise to becoming the Galactic Emperor should be a more gradual and actually be authoritarian in nature. The Custodian requires greater resources to keep the galaxy safe, we'll need to implement a tax, 5% of the entire community's alloys please. We, as the Custodian spend great resources protecting the galaxy's vast trade routes, it's past time that the traders started paying they're dues. 10% trade income as tax, thank you.

We have two prominent examples of republics becoming empires: the Roman Republic and the First French Republic. Neither one of them became an empire remotely as you suggest here. In both cases military forces basically stockpiled due to incessant wars until someone took the step of using them internally. (I'm not going to sully this discussion by talking too much about the horrible garbage fire Star Wars prequels, but even in that pathetic case... military forces were stockpiled from incessant warfare until someone took the step of using them internally. No one ever became emperor solely by raising taxes.)

I'm not saying raising tax's is what makes me Emperor, it was pointing out that now i've become Emperor why can't i do all sorts of Authoritarian things, even one's that seem unreasonable. While tax's may not what make me an Emperor, unreasonable taxation has been the cause of plenty of governments falling. At least then the members of the Empire would have a legitimate reason to go against the Emperor besides "Empire Bad".

Is it time to mass report the thread or can we be on topic?

Man gotta admit, did not see this getting so off topic. Hopefully we can pull it back.
 

currylambchop

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I get that they're doing this with the intention of confronting an large external threat, but it doesn't change the fact that there's nothing inherent to the position of custodian which actually makes you BE a custodian.

And as far as the public opinion thing, in the game that prompted me to make this post, i was HATED by the wider galaxy, i'd committed damn genocide, a couple time actually. I'm the most hated empire in the galaxy, but due to sheer size of diplo weight, i became the Custodian. and then proceeded to abuse the hell out of that power from the outset, never actually performing my role as Custodian.

As for actually rating your performance, it could be a simple as giving the Custodian a reward for either defeating one of the Crisis outright or even a reward based on Crisis ship kills, station kills Ect. if missions issued by the council where implemented then those would further add to the total.

Or hell, make it basic. Gimme a timer which i have to kill SOME crisis ships in or i loose the position of Custodian. And again, a timer that can be extended or removed through laws.



I'm not saying raising tax's is what makes me Emperor, it was pointing out that now i've become Emperor why can't i do all sorts of Authoritarian things, even one's that seem unreasonable. While tax's may not what make me an Emperor, unreasonable taxation has been the cause of plenty of governments falling. At least then the members of the Empire would have a legitimate reason to go against the Emperor besides "Empire Bad".



Man gotta admit, did not see this getting so off topic. Hopefully we can pull it back.
Emperor basically has the whole galaxy as a vassal because they join the emperor in its defensive wars.
 

117Killer

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Emperor basically has the whole galaxy as a vassal because they join the emperor in its defensive wars.
Couple things here, as i assume your saying as to why i'm Authoritarian as Emperor:

  1. It's not very Authoritarian or even unreasonable, it's only Defensive wars that i drag them into.
  2. yipee, all that moronic AI help will definitely amount to something.... Yeah this is only important in multiplayer games with a galaxy of almost all players.
  3. That's also the ONLY real thing that i make them do as Emperor until i get 180 Authority and force the lot of them to be at peace with one another. I'm supposed to be the big, bad scary empire right? let me do something else. Demand tax's, force they're best and brightest to work for me. All that kind of fun bad guy empire stuff.
 
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currylambchop

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Couple things here, as i assume your saying as to why i'm Authoritarian as Emperor:

  1. It's not very Authoritarian or even unreasonable, it's only Defensive wars that i drag them into.
  2. yipee, all that moronic AI help will definitely amount to something.... Yeah this is only important in multiplayer games with a galaxy of almost all players.
  3. That's also the ONLY real thing that i make them do as Emperor until i get 180 Authority and force the lot of them to be at peace with one another. I'm supposed to be the big, bad scary empire right? let me do something else. Demand tax's, force they're best and brightest to work for me. All that kind of fun bad guy empire stuff.
You can also do imperial crusades or declare someone the crisis
 
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You can also do imperial crusades or declare someone the crisis
Instead crusading you can simply conquer via colossus cb or preemptive war (mutual defense lv. 5) and declaring the crisis is avaiable for custodian and council member. The only fancy Imperium thing is imperial authority.

Not to mention there isn't that many non-GalCom empires that you can't take out using other cbs.
 

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Imagine hating the star wars prequels... lol. We have actually hateable "Sequels" now. nothing remotely exists about the prequels worth complaining about next to that.

And custodianship is fine. what's not fine is the AI.
 
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Let's make Shared Burdens exclusively available to Fanatical Purifiers.
I mean if we wanted to be realistic shared burdens would practically halt pop growth and slowly crash the economy (your economy aka government) requiring you to gut your pops more and more until empire collapse.

Stellaris isn't realistic. that much is obvious since shared burdens is under egalatarian. lol nothing sillier than that.
 
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So i've done a number of runs now going for galactic emperor, and i've noticed a couple issues with the galactic custodian and how it works.

So, the Galactic custodian is supposed to be a defender of the galactic community right? The defender of their safety and of the laws of the community. Well then why are there no obligations or limitations inherit to the role? In my most recent game i became custodian after the Khans rise, only to never even engage a Khan fleet, or attack they're systems. The Khan died to a concubine assassin having never seen one of my fleets.

And in the meantime i managed to somehow convince the council to make me a permanent Custodian, create the GDF and reduce the number of council positions to just me.

Imagine that conversation in any real life political interview. "look i know we've done literally none of the things we're supposed to do as Custodian, but you should definitely centralize all political and military power in our hands. We'll certainly use it for good." riiiiight.

I think there needs to be some pretty big changes to how custodian works if we want to make it, ya'know, do the job it's supposed to. As well as making the rise to emperor a more worthy and interesting endevour.

The Custodian is the arm of the Council:
The Custodian shouldn't be a member of the council, at least not automatically, but maybe could rejoin the council with another law.

But instead should be the arm of the council, subject to the councils orders. The council can order the Custodian to defend certain systems, target certain fleets, capture worlds Ect. In return the custodian not only gets the GDF, but can also request aid from non-council members of the community when it pertains to a council-given mission. Like requesting fleets to help, or resources to rebuild from a battle from a mission.

The council should be able to put forward laws to further restrict the freedom of the Custodian, banning them from using certain policy's (we of the council are really sick of our Custodian, defender of our galaxy wide democracy, keeping damn SLAVES), from using Colossus ect. While the Custodian can put forward laws expanding they're power and freedom, not just the GDF but also giving them the ability to ignore council requests or outright remove the councils ability to ask.

The Custodian's voting power should be limited.... at first:
The custodian, in exchange for it's many boons and privileges, should loose some diplomatic weight and the ability to vote on certain things ( having the defender set the community's policy on warfare and war rules would be a bitttttttt sketchy) at least until they manage to pass new laws removing those limitations, and then perhaps expanding they're power (diplo weight) further.

Maybe the Custodian, in exchange for being able to freeze a policy from going to the vote for a time, forfeit's they're right to put forward they're vote on that policy in the future. after all it's clear which way they lean, if they want to use they're executive power then they should loose the right to then also wade in on the issue in the regular vote.

Rise to Imperium:
The rise to becoming the Galactic Emperor should be a more gradual and actually be authoritarian in nature. The Custodian requires greater resources to keep the galaxy safe, we'll need to implement a tax, 5% of the entire community's alloys please. We, as the Custodian spend great resources protecting the galaxy's vast trade routes, it's past time that the traders started paying they're dues. 10% trade income as tax, thank you.

Perhaps it turns out, in our vast conflicts keeping the many empires of the community safe from outside threats our fleets require places to rest and repair far from our borders. we'll need to begin building Custodian stations in community's members border's which are capable of repairing and upgrading our fleets.

Maybe even our vast fleet has proven insufficient to defend the vast holdings of the community. we need the community members to provide perhaps a small portion of they're fleet cap to expand our far more effective GDF fleets, so that we could better defend them.

And, after so much of the community's vast economic and military has been centralized it is time to declare our intent. We are better off as an Empire where the new Emperor can enact the reforms need to further goals of the new Galactic Empire.

With the Empire now declared, it's time for work to begin. The old Custodian stations served they're purpose, but now it is time we ensured the empires many subjects know who it is who keep them...... safe. it is time we armed these stations. equipped them with vast battery's of weapons and large shipyards to keep the Armada strong. And the tax's of the past, well they served, but now there's no reason for the our many subjects to hold such wealth when it would serve the empire far better in our hands. they're fleets as well, it is past time we began limiting the power of our new subjects. after all, with the Grand Imperial Armada protecting them, what need could they have of such vast forces.

And so on and so on. until either the entire Empire is completely under the Imperial Cores thumb, or until, finally the many members of the Empire finally snap, and begin the work needed to throw off the yoke of Imperial control.
I don't know, modern politicians makes tons of promises, fail to deliver and STILL get re-elected.

I imagine your Custodianship has a pretty good PR (propaganda) department.
 
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I mean if we wanted to be realistic shared burdens would practically halt pop growth and slowly crash the economy (your economy aka government) requiring you to gut your pops more and more until empire collapse.

Stellaris isn't realistic. that much is obvious since shared burdens is under egalatarian. lol nothing sillier than that.
Why wouldn't shared burdens be egalitarian?

Is there any basis for it to halt pop growth and crash economy?

And I specifically ask about share burdens as it is described in Stellaris so don't try to strawman it with Stalinism from real world cuz it is not the same thing at all.
 
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currylambchop

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Y’all be like: ‘communism bad/good, real life examples’
Stellaris be like a literal fantasy game where you can be magic wizard necromancies

anything can work in this game, shared burdens/fanatic purifiers/megacorp, so let’s stop bringing real life politics into the discussion.
 

117Killer

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Y’all be like: ‘communism bad/good, real life examples’
Stellaris be like a literal fantasy game where you can be magic wizard necromancies

anything can work in this game, shared burdens/fanatic purifiers/megacorp, so let’s stop bringing real life politics into the discussion.

Agreed, Bad real life politics. Bad. Shoo.

Instead crusading you can simply conquer via colossus cb or preemptive war (mutual defense lv. 5) and declaring the crisis is avaiable for custodian and council member. The only fancy Imperium thing is imperial authority.

Not to mention there isn't that many non-GalCom empires that you can't take out using other cbs.

Point well made. there is nothing beneficial to being Emperor beyond the Custodianship aside from the legions and the Civic.

While my original problem is with how easily abuse-able the position of Custodian is, there is plenty of issue with how little there is to actually being Emperor. The position has little benefit to it and certainly isn't able to become really tyrannical. Sure, by the time i reach Emperor i can probably overrule the votes of the entire rest of the community. But whats that matter, by then i've probably instituted all the laws i want or that benefit me. There's not really any laws that limit the other member states of the empire while benefiting me. it either benefits us all, benefits just me, or sucks for everyone (Tiyanki extermination and the like).

I've recently gotten really into Battletech and it's universe, and the Star league in that setting is something like what i'm thinking. In that the SLDF (Star league defense force) is the largest military in the galaxy and is funded by the great houses of the star league (think the Council and Imperial Armada) where the houses have decided to collectively fund the SLDF over they're own military's, and have accepted laws to shrink they're own military's and limit there size because they all have a voice in how the SLDF is used.

So i can imagine the Emperor can put forward laws in order to limit the size of the members of the Empires military's in exchange for expanding the Armada. or laws that will bind the bureaucracy and economy of the Empires members states closer to the Imperial Core, either through taxation, or funneling trade through imperial core worlds ect.

But i think in both the Empires and the Custodian's cases the council or members should hold more account over the actions of the Emperor or Custodian. In Star wars case the Empire is still somewhat beholden at the start to the will of the Senate, until it's dissolved. In Battletech the council of Lords from the Houses of the inner sphere have huge influence over the Star league, both it's laws and military. Honestly i think the Emperor position requires a lot more unilateral decisions and freedom in things like warfare and Casus Beli, while the Custodian needs the opposite, more limitations and fewer unilateral decisions.
 
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Olterin

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My biggest issue with the current Custodian position ... is the AI's eagerness to vote for removing your term limit. Like, my first move after getting elected Custodian is to propose and expedite a term limit removal, as quickly as possible, to get that approval bonus from the currently ongoing crisis.

This is the one Custodian reform that should not be popular with member states by default when there's a crisis. They should favor granting another custodian term if the current one is more than halfway done and the crisis is still ongoing (be it the Khan or an actual endgame one), sure, but actually removing the limit..? Maybe not so much?

Beyond that, yes, being Galactic Emperor has very few tangible benefits compared to being a Custodian with the term limit removed. I feel like, for a start, the Imperial Armada should be expandable a lot more than the GDF armada ever can be - at the cost of member states' fleet capacities, of course. Other centralization-of-power reforms should be available as well, with the eventual formal vassalization of every member state (think HRE reforms in EU4) - but popular, they should certainly not be.

And passing unpopular reforms should have more repercussions - currently it feels like there are too few (if any). There need to be ways to sway support of a reform, not just favor-extortion. That would enable a more naturally-growing resentment towards an upstart Emperor or a tyrannical Custodian that would spill into open conflict if not dealt with.
 
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GnoSIS

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To OP: Ah you're sold on the propaganda that the council puts forward?

It was never about protecting anything. It's just another step, just another tool in the long line of tools to enforce a will onto the galaxy. This was the Palpatine expansion after all.
 
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Ashantai

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Please keep your posts on topic and productive. Discussion of real world events are not allowed - there's an OT forum for that.
 
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117Killer

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My biggest issue with the current Custodian position ... is the AI's eagerness to vote for removing your term limit. Like, my first move after getting elected Custodian is to propose and expedite a term limit removal, as quickly as possible, to get that approval bonus from the currently ongoing crisis.

This is the one Custodian reform that should not be popular with member states by default when there's a crisis. They should favor granting another custodian term if the current one is more than halfway done and the crisis is still ongoing (be it the Khan or an actual endgame one), sure, but actually removing the limit..? Maybe not so much?

Beyond that, yes, being Galactic Emperor has very few tangible benefits compared to being a Custodian with the term limit removed. I feel like, for a start, the Imperial Armada should be expandable a lot more than the GDF armada ever can be - at the cost of member states' fleet capacities, of course. Other centralization-of-power reforms should be available as well, with the eventual formal vassalization of every member state (think HRE reforms in EU4) - but popular, they should certainly not be.

And passing unpopular reforms should have more repercussions - currently it feels like there are too few (if any). There need to be ways to sway support of a reform, not just favor-extortion. That would enable a more naturally-growing resentment towards an upstart Emperor or a tyrannical Custodian that would spill into open conflict if not dealt with.

This is definitely a problem. The AI is more than happy to throw the keys to the galaxy at you. but the Galaxy really shouldn't be 2 votes away from tyranny at any moment. i think the process needs to be expanded to encompass perhaps several paths to becoming Emperor, like the example earlier of the difference between the Star wars Galactic Empire and battletechs Star League.

To OP: Ah you're sold on the propaganda that the council puts forward?

It was never about protecting anything. It's just another step, just another tool in the long line of tools to enforce a will onto the galaxy. This was the Palpatine expansion after all.

Well i mean i'm not quite sold on my own propaganda that i've been passing out to the rest of the council, what with me being the one printing it and all. But the palpatine method doesn't have to be the end-all of how to become an Empire.

Please keep your posts on topic and productive. Discussion of real world events are not allowed - there's an OT forum for that.

Thank you.