The rejection of aid is done out of pride. All Hugh feels is shame that he is not powerful enough to do without them. I doubt Hugh has ever felt pride in his entire life, until his prayer was answered. All his life he's been told he's second best.
The Machiavellian Adventures of Princess Eleanor
- Thread starter frogbeastegg
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Chief Ragusa said:
I'm sure we can keep this up untill we both have 3000 posts without getting anywhere, so I suggest agreeing to disagree at least untill forggy clears things up. If not till then, then untill eternity
For ordinary sins, I agree with you, intent is enough. However the deadly sins require performance for the act to be a sin. One may very well be guilty of some other sin, just not a deadly one.
Before you quoted that passage, I could not remember a single instance of Hugh being proud of anything. Until he recommended John be executed, I thought Hugh a weak character lacking in backbone. He would, I thought, be putty in the hands of Trempwick. His reasoning to destroy John remains a truly chilling moment. I believe it was at that monent that Trempwick realised he had destroyed the wrong brother.
Hugh believes God answered his prayer and sent him help. He will have taken that as a sign that God is on his side. Years of negative self-image fell away at that instant. Super Hugh was born.
Before you quoted that passage, I could not remember a single instance of Hugh being proud of anything. Until he recommended John be executed, I thought Hugh a weak character lacking in backbone. He would, I thought, be putty in the hands of Trempwick. His reasoning to destroy John remains a truly chilling moment. I believe it was at that monent that Trempwick realised he had destroyed the wrong brother.
Hugh believes God answered his prayer and sent him help. He will have taken that as a sign that God is on his side. Years of negative self-image fell away at that instant. Super Hugh was born.
Sorry, the pc's died again. Remember thyat time I said I suspected one of the HDs was failing? It failed. Salvaged what I can last night, and my writing is safe. Hoping to get a new pair of HDs, a fresh install of everything etc on Tuesday.
I had half an episode done. The fruist of my day off. And I was just getting to a rather cool scen and all! Can't do a thing until I get those new drives.
I had half an episode done. The fruist of my day off. And I was just getting to a rather cool scen and all! Can't do a thing until I get those new drives.
Hope the new machine works a bit better...
Now, I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall a private conversation between Nell and Fulk suggesting that she was going to raise her banner once the Earldom of Alnwick was secured.
That would mean that Nell was doing what I anticipated...quite some time ago...and having her hand forced to claim the throne on her own behalf.
This would open several new cans of worms, not least the one of Nell's psychological state trying to rule.
*looks forward to explanation/explication of this*
Now, I may be mistaken, but I seem to recall a private conversation between Nell and Fulk suggesting that she was going to raise her banner once the Earldom of Alnwick was secured.
That would mean that Nell was doing what I anticipated...quite some time ago...and having her hand forced to claim the throne on her own behalf.
This would open several new cans of worms, not least the one of Nell's psychological state trying to rule.
*looks forward to explanation/explication of this*
Oh, wail in sadness all you fans
Of Nell and Fulk (or Trempy)
Stark failure has hit Froggy's plans
Her hard drives now are empty.
No more will they spin fast and free
Nor even slow and sluggard
Their data now no-one can see
Let's face it - they are b****red !
But then, hooray ! Not all is lost
No need to search the basements
Whatever be their horrid cost
The Frog will get replacements !
As froggy knows, I've been following this long and wonderful thread from the very beginning. Splendid tale, isn't it ? And I greatly enjoy the discussions.
Of Nell and Fulk (or Trempy)
Stark failure has hit Froggy's plans
Her hard drives now are empty.
No more will they spin fast and free
Nor even slow and sluggard
Their data now no-one can see
Let's face it - they are b****red !
But then, hooray ! Not all is lost
No need to search the basements
Whatever be their horrid cost
The Frog will get replacements !
As froggy knows, I've been following this long and wonderful thread from the very beginning. Splendid tale, isn't it ? And I greatly enjoy the discussions.
I nearly couldn't find where I'd left off thanks to Avernite and the Chief. But I did and thankfully so. A nice update that shows they are consolidating their new lands and further gives us yet another wonderful moment from Jocy. I do so love his reasoning power.
But I did and thankfully so. A nice update that shows they are consolidating their new lands and further gives us yet another wonderful moment from Jocy. I do so love his reasoning power.
coz1 said:I nearly couldn't find where I'd left off thanks to Avernite and the Chief.
Pleasure to be of service
And indeed, in our day and age, Jocelyn would definately be a lawyer. Or maybe a politician
The knock on the door came as Eleanor recovered from a lunge and began to throw her left knife at a target precariously placed atop the doorframe. Stood stock still in the doorway, the door itself still swinging open, Jocelyn looked up at the still-quivering dagger buried above his head, at Eleanor, back at the weapon, at the knife Eleanor still held, at Hawise and her own pair of blades. He made a noise midway between a strangled sob and a curse. The little wicker target, struggling to recover its balance after being struck, surrendered to the inevitable and fell off its perch, bouncing the pommel of the dagger off the count’s head.
Anne clamped a hand over her mouth to stifle a giggle.
Eleanor slid her remaining dagger back into its wrist sheath. “That serves you quite right for bursting in without permission.”
“Urp.” Jocelyn was busily engaged with feeling the crown of his head with both hands.
“I assume you have a very good reason?”
“There’s a message.” The count’s fingers probed a sensitive spot to the side of his parting. He whimpered something which sounded like, “Bloody hell. Knives!? Gah!”
Scowling Eleanor demanded, “And this justifies your intrusion how?”
“From your brother.”
“I still fail to see how this is your business. The messenger himself could have brought it me – and with more respect.”
Jocelyn removed his fingers from his scalp and stood up properly. “His horse slipped as he came through the inner gate, he broke his blo- er, leg. The man, that is, not the horse. Thought you’d want it quickly; I thought it would be important.”
Eleanor held out her hand; it took a bit but the man finally got the hint and handed over the letter. She examined the seal and found it intact. “You will leave. You will in future remember your manners, or I shall have you balance an apple on your head and use you for target practice. Good day.”
When the count had slunk away Anne and Hawise burst out laughing.
“Did you see his face?” Anne asked. “And when the target hit him!”
Ignoring them, Eleanor opened her letter. A second, smaller missive was tucked inside; it bore Constance’s oval seal. She turned first to Hugh’s and read swiftly. Crumpling the parchment in her fist she screamed, “A half-million marks!?” Further comment was made impossible by her choking on the multitude of - mostly unpleasant - words trying to burst forth.
Anne cocked her head to one side. “A half-million marks what?”
“A half-million marks as a fine for marrying without his consent, my lands confiscated, a public apology to him, more bloody oaths of obedience and all to be taken in public and sworn on relics, and an investigation into whether my marriage can be allowed to stand! I am to present myself at once to beg for royal pardon!” Lungs empty, Eleanor dragged in another breath and kept on howling, “And that is only me! Fulk is fined another half-million! And all the rest!”
Anne edged back a few steps. “I doubt he means it.”
“We are ordered to stand our armies down and come to his custody with no more than five attendants each.”
“But those fines are impossible to pay off, and Hugh is not that mean.”
Eleanor’s hand clenched about the fastening of her girdle, where she had hidden the coronation ring. “I would need a kingdom to make any headway paying it! And to see if my marriage can be allowed to stand?!” Eleanor cast the letter to the floor. “Sod that! He will find no reason why it cannot stand, however hard he searches. Nor will he have our complicity in undoing it.” Her temper ebbed as several details fitted together. “And all of it is in the formal, stuffy, smug, arrogant, conceited official tone – none of it is Hugh himself speaking. It is in essence a proclamation.” In her rush to unfasten Constance’s letter she snapped the thong. Done reading she rolled it up and tapped the missive thoughtfully against the palm of her hand. “Well, it appears I shall not have to go into rebellion to preserve myself.”
Anne beamed. “There. I told you everything would be alright.”
“Alright?” Eleanor favoured the girl with a miniscule not-quite-smile. “Only insofar as that our lives will not become so impossible we are left no choice but to try and overthrow Hugh. We are ordered to present ourselves – with an escort of five only – within fourteen days of receiving this. It shall not be as bad as the public statement, of that I am assured. Our marriage will be let stand. Yet we will suffer. How could it be otherwise? My brother is thinking like a king. He must be seen to be in control where he should be, and vengeful where wronged. He would be the worst kind of fool if he did not twist our arms to breaking point.”
The ground her composed façade was built on was tremulous; Eleanor made her excuses and shut herself in her bedchamber. Constance’s letter she threw at the wall with all her might. She slumped onto the bed holding another tight to her breast: Fulk’s notification he’d taken Wooperton.
They’d threatened her children. And herself. The message was couched in concern for her well-being; the meaning was obvious to her. She and her baby would be dead within the day. It was strange, to find herself torn between protective wrath and tearful fear over children who did not exist and were not wanted to.
That, with some luck, is the end of the PC issues for a couple of years to come. This new install of windows is stable and working well; only one problem is left and it’s identified and curable when I get chance to try an assortment of different video drivers. The misc. annoying bits have been subdued, my backups copied into place, and the PC generally restored to compatibility with a frog’s preferences.
Gah! I’ve spent days burning to write but not able to! Nearly drove me mad. I still feel the need to sink an entire day into hammering out page after page; alas for the present lack of a day off. Got some neat bits to write. Wednesday, roll on Wednesday … :dreams:
Actually, Chief, there’s a certain unstated line where a bastard becomes socially acceptable, even desirable. The bastards of powerful figures such as the Pope would be considered noble.
Hold on, hold on, hold on! Rochester? :checks a few things: Oh … bugger. I’ve got two Rochesters, both important castles and both important to POV characters! Gah! What are the chances of that!? Why oh why oh why does England have to have a Rochester in the south and one in the north, and both right where I want something to be happening!? Damn! That explains why I had this tickling feeling at the back of my mind each time I mentioned Rochester with Fulk.
Avernite: A crown lends an Aura with a capital A
Incognitia: That conversation did happen. It was in one of the more recent updates, the one where Nell and Fulk part.
Bushface: I see you took the plunge then And with poetry too. :clears throat:
Bushface is a poet,
I didn’t know it.
Until my PC died,
Broke not fried
Er … And I can’t think of more. Frogs don’t do poetry.
Coz1: Reasoning power? Only Jocelyn could go shopping for his family by convincing himself he was checking for shady activity as a boon to Nell, and come back with a collection of presents for his wife and children carried by his latest female friend whom, he’s sure, he rescued out of charity, and so it’s moral to commit adultery with her :wacko: :rofl:
Da big debate:
Author froggy:
Hugh knows Miles is dead; he mourned his friend and cursed the mess it made of his Scottish plans.
Hugh has done things he doesn’t like. He’s going to have to keep on doing that if he is to rule. Medieval power politics involve doing things that a decent person would not like, yet they must be done. The mutilation or execution of hostages, for example. If threats are not made and carried out then the ruler is weak and will face more trouble, if hostages are not used then again they are weak and also casting away one of their best tools.
Hugh found Matilda’s loan of men shameful because she sent soldiers he didn’t ask for with no warning, paid for by herself, and shoved on him in such a way it is closely akin to a liege coming to the rescue of a vassal. Having to use foreign troops damages Hugh’s standing at home: historically it’s frequently seen as using outsiders to ‘oppress’ the people, and as a sign the ruler is lacking the support of his own people. The things Matilda requests in return would put Hugh in a subordinate position. And Hugh can’t afford to reject the soldiers. It’s shameful because he’s having to accept bad terms, at least for the present. He chastises himself for pride because it’s him who is humbled in the main, not England, and so he’s wanting to turn down something which could help his realm to protect his personal pride and standing. That would count as sinful under strict interpretation of medieval theology. Hugh takes the devout path and sacrifices himself for the sake of what he believes to be best for his realm. The alternative interpretations of this are unexpected, but interesting.
Personal froggy:
I see more than one possible future for each character without my authorvision. Hugh could swing the other way to the scary path, and end up sacrificing too much and working too hard, burning himself out in trying to be the best king he can. Or he could go other ways entirely ...
Anne clamped a hand over her mouth to stifle a giggle.
Eleanor slid her remaining dagger back into its wrist sheath. “That serves you quite right for bursting in without permission.”
“Urp.” Jocelyn was busily engaged with feeling the crown of his head with both hands.
“I assume you have a very good reason?”
“There’s a message.” The count’s fingers probed a sensitive spot to the side of his parting. He whimpered something which sounded like, “Bloody hell. Knives!? Gah!”
Scowling Eleanor demanded, “And this justifies your intrusion how?”
“From your brother.”
“I still fail to see how this is your business. The messenger himself could have brought it me – and with more respect.”
Jocelyn removed his fingers from his scalp and stood up properly. “His horse slipped as he came through the inner gate, he broke his blo- er, leg. The man, that is, not the horse. Thought you’d want it quickly; I thought it would be important.”
Eleanor held out her hand; it took a bit but the man finally got the hint and handed over the letter. She examined the seal and found it intact. “You will leave. You will in future remember your manners, or I shall have you balance an apple on your head and use you for target practice. Good day.”
When the count had slunk away Anne and Hawise burst out laughing.
“Did you see his face?” Anne asked. “And when the target hit him!”
Ignoring them, Eleanor opened her letter. A second, smaller missive was tucked inside; it bore Constance’s oval seal. She turned first to Hugh’s and read swiftly. Crumpling the parchment in her fist she screamed, “A half-million marks!?” Further comment was made impossible by her choking on the multitude of - mostly unpleasant - words trying to burst forth.
Anne cocked her head to one side. “A half-million marks what?”
“A half-million marks as a fine for marrying without his consent, my lands confiscated, a public apology to him, more bloody oaths of obedience and all to be taken in public and sworn on relics, and an investigation into whether my marriage can be allowed to stand! I am to present myself at once to beg for royal pardon!” Lungs empty, Eleanor dragged in another breath and kept on howling, “And that is only me! Fulk is fined another half-million! And all the rest!”
Anne edged back a few steps. “I doubt he means it.”
“We are ordered to stand our armies down and come to his custody with no more than five attendants each.”
“But those fines are impossible to pay off, and Hugh is not that mean.”
Eleanor’s hand clenched about the fastening of her girdle, where she had hidden the coronation ring. “I would need a kingdom to make any headway paying it! And to see if my marriage can be allowed to stand?!” Eleanor cast the letter to the floor. “Sod that! He will find no reason why it cannot stand, however hard he searches. Nor will he have our complicity in undoing it.” Her temper ebbed as several details fitted together. “And all of it is in the formal, stuffy, smug, arrogant, conceited official tone – none of it is Hugh himself speaking. It is in essence a proclamation.” In her rush to unfasten Constance’s letter she snapped the thong. Done reading she rolled it up and tapped the missive thoughtfully against the palm of her hand. “Well, it appears I shall not have to go into rebellion to preserve myself.”
Anne beamed. “There. I told you everything would be alright.”
“Alright?” Eleanor favoured the girl with a miniscule not-quite-smile. “Only insofar as that our lives will not become so impossible we are left no choice but to try and overthrow Hugh. We are ordered to present ourselves – with an escort of five only – within fourteen days of receiving this. It shall not be as bad as the public statement, of that I am assured. Our marriage will be let stand. Yet we will suffer. How could it be otherwise? My brother is thinking like a king. He must be seen to be in control where he should be, and vengeful where wronged. He would be the worst kind of fool if he did not twist our arms to breaking point.”
The ground her composed façade was built on was tremulous; Eleanor made her excuses and shut herself in her bedchamber. Constance’s letter she threw at the wall with all her might. She slumped onto the bed holding another tight to her breast: Fulk’s notification he’d taken Wooperton.
They’d threatened her children. And herself. The message was couched in concern for her well-being; the meaning was obvious to her. She and her baby would be dead within the day. It was strange, to find herself torn between protective wrath and tearful fear over children who did not exist and were not wanted to.
That, with some luck, is the end of the PC issues for a couple of years to come. This new install of windows is stable and working well; only one problem is left and it’s identified and curable when I get chance to try an assortment of different video drivers. The misc. annoying bits have been subdued, my backups copied into place, and the PC generally restored to compatibility with a frog’s preferences.
Gah! I’ve spent days burning to write but not able to! Nearly drove me mad. I still feel the need to sink an entire day into hammering out page after page; alas for the present lack of a day off. Got some neat bits to write. Wednesday, roll on Wednesday … :dreams:
Actually, Chief, there’s a certain unstated line where a bastard becomes socially acceptable, even desirable. The bastards of powerful figures such as the Pope would be considered noble.
Hold on, hold on, hold on! Rochester? :checks a few things: Oh … bugger. I’ve got two Rochesters, both important castles and both important to POV characters! Gah! What are the chances of that!? Why oh why oh why does England have to have a Rochester in the south and one in the north, and both right where I want something to be happening!? Damn! That explains why I had this tickling feeling at the back of my mind each time I mentioned Rochester with Fulk.
Avernite: A crown lends an Aura with a capital A
Incognitia: That conversation did happen. It was in one of the more recent updates, the one where Nell and Fulk part.
Bushface: I see you took the plunge then
And with poetry too. :clears throat: Bushface is a poet,
I didn’t know it.
Until my PC died,
Broke not fried
Er … And I can’t think of more. Frogs don’t do poetry.
Coz1: Reasoning power? Only Jocelyn could go shopping for his family by convincing himself he was checking for shady activity as a boon to Nell, and come back with a collection of presents for his wife and children carried by his latest female friend whom, he’s sure, he rescued out of charity, and so it’s moral to commit adultery with her :wacko: :rofl:
Da big debate:
Author froggy:
Hugh knows Miles is dead; he mourned his friend and cursed the mess it made of his Scottish plans.
Hugh has done things he doesn’t like. He’s going to have to keep on doing that if he is to rule. Medieval power politics involve doing things that a decent person would not like, yet they must be done. The mutilation or execution of hostages, for example. If threats are not made and carried out then the ruler is weak and will face more trouble, if hostages are not used then again they are weak and also casting away one of their best tools.
Hugh found Matilda’s loan of men shameful because she sent soldiers he didn’t ask for with no warning, paid for by herself, and shoved on him in such a way it is closely akin to a liege coming to the rescue of a vassal. Having to use foreign troops damages Hugh’s standing at home: historically it’s frequently seen as using outsiders to ‘oppress’ the people, and as a sign the ruler is lacking the support of his own people. The things Matilda requests in return would put Hugh in a subordinate position. And Hugh can’t afford to reject the soldiers. It’s shameful because he’s having to accept bad terms, at least for the present. He chastises himself for pride because it’s him who is humbled in the main, not England, and so he’s wanting to turn down something which could help his realm to protect his personal pride and standing. That would count as sinful under strict interpretation of medieval theology. Hugh takes the devout path and sacrifices himself for the sake of what he believes to be best for his realm. The alternative interpretations of this are unexpected, but interesting.
Personal froggy:
I see more than one possible future for each character without my authorvision. Hugh could swing the other way to the scary path, and end up sacrificing too much and working too hard, burning himself out in trying to be the best king he can. Or he could go other ways entirely ...
aaaaaah a froggy update. u do not know how happy i am to see this. And it looks like the pc troubles have not affected your writing ability. (officially joins nell's fan club and fulk's fan club)
Good to see you back up on lone and updating again.
Two Rochester's ? Now, there's a bind.
With respect your paragraph put it: Hugh prayed for help; help came, Hugh didn't want it but accepted it anyway. t dawned on me that you were probably treating shame and pride as opposite faces of the same coin. It's a common miisconception.
A commander whose knights abandon him on the filedof battle will often ride alone into the enemy because he cannot face living with the humiliation. He lost status in the eyes of his peers and was shamed in his own eyes. A commander who charges the enemy alone is suffering from pride.
However, you have made your intention perfectly clear.
Granted a royal bastard is treated as noble. I don't recollect what status or how interrelated William's first wife was. As for Fulk, his maternal line has not been checked to see if he fell from some noble's distaff.
You update was different. I had not expected Eleanor to react quite so emotionally. The sum is twice that the Edward I raised in taxes from Parliament over three years. Its exobitant and when news leakswill cost Hugh support.
Most embassies for marriage were sent with the attachment or some other person acceptable to the said King so that the girl in question did not return home. Fulk was acceptable to the Scots king - probably preferable to Nefastus! Nell was sent to get married and she did.
Jocelyn would, if she talked to him about it as someone more knowledgeable about protocol and the way feudal law operates, tell her that without the royal seal, it was so much scrap paper. Jocelyn could also tell her whether William was still alive when she got married. Io not recollect that William left the runing of the kingdom to anyone but Anne when he went off on campaign. Therefore Anne's permission for her step-daughter to marry would carry the same weight as William's.
I'd like to believe that the letter is a forgery of Trempwick's, but the style is unmistakeably Hugh's.
If a majority of the Privy Council(Witan) agree with or have sided Trempwick, they could offer him the crown and he could be crowned the lawful King.
I can't see why Hugh would have to ask his sister Matilda for troops. I could envisage the conditions being the price of the Emperor agreeing to let them to take service with Hugh.
Two Rochester's ? Now, there's a bind.
With respect your paragraph put it: Hugh prayed for help; help came, Hugh didn't want it but accepted it anyway. t dawned on me that you were probably treating shame and pride as opposite faces of the same coin. It's a common miisconception.
A commander whose knights abandon him on the filedof battle will often ride alone into the enemy because he cannot face living with the humiliation. He lost status in the eyes of his peers and was shamed in his own eyes. A commander who charges the enemy alone is suffering from pride.
However, you have made your intention perfectly clear.
Granted a royal bastard is treated as noble. I don't recollect what status or how interrelated William's first wife was. As for Fulk, his maternal line has not been checked to see if he fell from some noble's distaff.
You update was different. I had not expected Eleanor to react quite so emotionally. The sum is twice that the Edward I raised in taxes from Parliament over three years. Its exobitant and when news leakswill cost Hugh support.
Most embassies for marriage were sent with the attachment or some other person acceptable to the said King so that the girl in question did not return home. Fulk was acceptable to the Scots king - probably preferable to Nefastus! Nell was sent to get married and she did.
Jocelyn would, if she talked to him about it as someone more knowledgeable about protocol and the way feudal law operates, tell her that without the royal seal, it was so much scrap paper. Jocelyn could also tell her whether William was still alive when she got married. Io not recollect that William left the runing of the kingdom to anyone but Anne when he went off on campaign. Therefore Anne's permission for her step-daughter to marry would carry the same weight as William's.
I'd like to believe that the letter is a forgery of Trempwick's, but the style is unmistakeably Hugh's.
If a majority of the Privy Council(Witan) agree with or have sided Trempwick, they could offer him the crown and he could be crowned the lawful King.
I can't see why Hugh would have to ask his sister Matilda for troops. I could envisage the conditions being the price of the Emperor agreeing to let them to take service with Hugh.
Hoo!
Seems like Hugh snapped already, or Trempwick is even smarter than I think. Hugh SEEMED to be somewhat pleased with Nell marrying, so this message makes no sense... :wacko:
Seems like Hugh snapped already, or Trempwick is even smarter than I think. Hugh SEEMED to be somewhat pleased with Nell marrying, so this message makes no sense... :wacko:
I agree with you Avernite, the message makes no sense.
Trempwick did have someone close to Constance to poison her and so could have stolen, copied and replaced her seal. If he knows that Hugh asked Constance to write to Eleanor, he's still got someone close to Hugh and Constance.
I think this does prove that Trempwick has got Hugh's style off pat and is expecting Eleanor to react.
Thank you for reminding me, Avernite (indirectly), that Hugh thought Eleanor's marriage would hurt both their reputations.
Trempwick did have someone close to Constance to poison her and so could have stolen, copied and replaced her seal. If he knows that Hugh asked Constance to write to Eleanor, he's still got someone close to Hugh and Constance.
I think this does prove that Trempwick has got Hugh's style off pat and is expecting Eleanor to react.
Thank you for reminding me, Avernite (indirectly), that Hugh thought Eleanor's marriage would hurt both their reputations.
A flying visit.
Prussian_King, I'm happy to be back myself. Being able to read this thread only made not being able to write worse.
Fanclub updates:
Trempy: 3 members (Plotting)
Anne: 3 members
Fulk: 10 members (Besieging gooseberries is far more fun than besieging castles)
Nell: 10 members (Weee! Double-figure fanclub!)
Godit: 6 members
Constance: 4 members
Hugh: 2 members (Waiting politely for his next scene, with an aura which suggests the frog aught to hurry up)
Jocelyn: 8 members (shopping is such fun. You can find some real bargains … )
Richildis: 2 members (That man! Humph!)
Miles: 4 members
Hawise: 3 members
Mahaut: 2 member
William: 2 members
Malcolm Nefastus: 6 members)
King of Scotland: 2 member
Anti-Trempy: 6 members
Anti-Aveline: 1
Anti-Hugh: 1 member
The frog club: 5 members.
Avernite and the Chief agreeing on something at length? Wow!
IMO the message makes sense. By marrying without her brother and guardian's express permission Nell has stepped on his toes and made a fool of him. By marrying Fulk she's made that much, much worse - essentially to the local eye Nell is running about uncontrolled doing dubious things which drag her family into disrepute, and Hugh can't or won't control her. A big failing on his part. To repair what he can, Hugh has to be seen as the stern brother. Hence the 'announcement' letter carrying the public penalties, and the private assurance that, while some must stand, not all of that will apply.
Hugh cannot publicly approve of his sister marrying a bastard with only a newly forged crappy little earldom to his name. Even as a de la Bec Fulk is far from worthy of her.
Furthermore news of the fine won't need to be leaked: Hugh wants it to be known. It's justice - Nell and Fulk are both Hugh's vassals, and law states that neither can marry without his express permission, on pain of fines and/or losing the lands held from him. Real medieval law. If vassals could marry where they willed an overlord could suddenly find his nice little vassal married into his worst enemy's family, providing them with a safe entry point into his lands, or could take those lands from the overlord's control and hand them to another family. Or similar. The fine was dependant, amongst other things, on the status of the erring vassal, the lands involved, the danger presented to the overlord by the marriage, and the embarrassment involved. Being so high on the social scale, and having made a match which cannot be publicly approved, Nell gets a massive fine. Having run off with the princess he was supposed to be protecting Fulk gets another massive fine.
It's not as if this is a big surprise. In the very scene where he accepted Nell's marriage and said he found good in it, he had some speech and much thought on why Nell cannot be allowed to have children and could not be seen to skip away from this unpunished.
What Hugh can do is … meh. Wait and see.
I think I give up on saying Fulk's family history contains no surprises, such as long-forgotten noble forebears. Evidently it isn't believed.o
William wasn’t mad - he left running England to Hugh! He also left Anne under Hugh’s guidance and protection. Anne’s barely 13. She doesn’t know England, its people, its laws, or its customs. Hugh was the heir apparent, and, at that point, William’s own chosen successor. Heck, William signed Nell over to Hugh's control! He gave Hugh the same rights and control as a full-fledged legal guardian, a status Hugh could only otherwise gain on William's death provided Nell remained unmarried. Theory is nice, but no way is Anne's word going to carry more weight than Hugh's in this world. Nor would it count equal to William's on the matter of Nell's marriage. She's not Nell's legal guardian, she's not blood kin, and she's too young.
Hugh didn't ask for troops. He got them dumped on him without warning. That could be seen as a token of Matilda's support ... or her lack of faith ... or her helping one to whom she owes a liege’s protection.
Knowing the future is going to hurt is one thing. Having the future arrive and start hurting is another. And then finding yourself and your potential child threatened ... how could Nell take that calmly?
I could do all sorts of things on the various types of pride and shame And sometimes I do
Prussian_King, I'm happy to be back myself. Being able to read this thread only made not being able to write worse.
Fanclub updates:
Trempy: 3 members (Plotting)
Anne: 3 members
Fulk: 10 members (Besieging gooseberries is far more fun than besieging castles)
Nell: 10 members (Weee! Double-figure fanclub!)
Godit: 6 members
Constance: 4 members
Hugh: 2 members (Waiting politely for his next scene, with an aura which suggests the frog aught to hurry up)
Jocelyn: 8 members (shopping is such fun. You can find some real bargains … )
Richildis: 2 members (That man! Humph!)
Miles: 4 members
Hawise: 3 members
Mahaut: 2 member
William: 2 members
Malcolm Nefastus: 6 members)
King of Scotland: 2 member
Anti-Trempy: 6 members
Anti-Aveline: 1
Anti-Hugh: 1 member
The frog club: 5 members.
Avernite and the Chief agreeing on something at length? Wow!
IMO the message makes sense. By marrying without her brother and guardian's express permission Nell has stepped on his toes and made a fool of him. By marrying Fulk she's made that much, much worse - essentially to the local eye Nell is running about uncontrolled doing dubious things which drag her family into disrepute, and Hugh can't or won't control her. A big failing on his part. To repair what he can, Hugh has to be seen as the stern brother. Hence the 'announcement' letter carrying the public penalties, and the private assurance that, while some must stand, not all of that will apply.
Hugh cannot publicly approve of his sister marrying a bastard with only a newly forged crappy little earldom to his name. Even as a de la Bec Fulk is far from worthy of her.
Furthermore news of the fine won't need to be leaked: Hugh wants it to be known. It's justice - Nell and Fulk are both Hugh's vassals, and law states that neither can marry without his express permission, on pain of fines and/or losing the lands held from him. Real medieval law. If vassals could marry where they willed an overlord could suddenly find his nice little vassal married into his worst enemy's family, providing them with a safe entry point into his lands, or could take those lands from the overlord's control and hand them to another family. Or similar. The fine was dependant, amongst other things, on the status of the erring vassal, the lands involved, the danger presented to the overlord by the marriage, and the embarrassment involved. Being so high on the social scale, and having made a match which cannot be publicly approved, Nell gets a massive fine. Having run off with the princess he was supposed to be protecting Fulk gets another massive fine.
It's not as if this is a big surprise. In the very scene where he accepted Nell's marriage and said he found good in it, he had some speech and much thought on why Nell cannot be allowed to have children and could not be seen to skip away from this unpunished.
What Hugh can do is … meh. Wait and see.
I think I give up on saying Fulk's family history contains no surprises, such as long-forgotten noble forebears. Evidently it isn't believed.
o William wasn’t mad - he left running England to Hugh! He also left Anne under Hugh’s guidance and protection. Anne’s barely 13. She doesn’t know England, its people, its laws, or its customs. Hugh was the heir apparent, and, at that point, William’s own chosen successor. Heck, William signed Nell over to Hugh's control! He gave Hugh the same rights and control as a full-fledged legal guardian, a status Hugh could only otherwise gain on William's death provided Nell remained unmarried. Theory is nice, but no way is Anne's word going to carry more weight than Hugh's in this world. Nor would it count equal to William's on the matter of Nell's marriage. She's not Nell's legal guardian, she's not blood kin, and she's too young.
Hugh didn't ask for troops. He got them dumped on him without warning. That could be seen as a token of Matilda's support ... or her lack of faith ... or her helping one to whom she owes a liege’s protection.
Knowing the future is going to hurt is one thing. Having the future arrive and start hurting is another. And then finding yourself and your potential child threatened ... how could Nell take that calmly?
I could do all sorts of things on the various types of pride and shame
And sometimes I do
Oh I do believe you about Fulk's ancestry and out of story you have said it several times. You have yet to say so, in an update, by one of the characters for the maternal line.
I have to apologise for the bit about Anne being left in charge. I'd got confused about William agreeing to letting her do more to help him.
Real mediaeval law. Vassals did marry without consent and paid a fine - Owen Tudor (bodyguard) and Catherine de Valois, Princess of France and Dowager Queen of England spring to mind. Actually most of what you're talking about was stopped by Magna Carta, except for tenants-in-chief, which Nell and Fulk are.
Aghast that Hugh actually sent the message. The more so since he sent her north to get married. Fulk turned out to be acceptable to the King of the Scots. Fulk and Nell are now Earl and Countess of Alnwick and vassals of the King of the Scots. Hugh has scottish support. Actually, aghast does not begin to describe my feelings.
The King can try to annul the marraige, but the Church will reject royal usurpation of their preogatives. Hugh's doing what he thinks is his kingly duty. Not in a million years he is not. He does not appear to need any assistance in beng the fool. Hugh has not been crowned and does not possess the royal seal nor can he demand fealty. He has obviously forgotten there is a civil war and yet he's asking Nell to ride, undefended without proper escort due her rank through hostile country. As the what Hugh will do - meh indeed. This is Hugh's idea of punishment and he's going to broadcast the contents of the letter, so turkeys do vote for Chrisrmas and christmas has certainly come for Trempwick.There's not a lord in the land who will regard Hugh as reasonable after this. The King of the Scots will be insulted enough to take several important towns and offer to sell them back to hugh for the million marks he's demanded from his vassals. Anne will tell her father, even if he does not learn of it through other means.
Matilda sent the men unasked simply to help her brother. Something as as simple as family loyalty.
Eleanor could take being threatened personally in her stride. It goes with the territory as an assassin. Threatening the unborn children is quite another. It places Hugh in the King Herod League. Eleanor has a fortnight to secure the earldom and put an end to Trempwick's control over Northumberland. She will have to move fast and prevent the messenger leaving without her response until the north is secured.
Several Yorkshire lords may chose to believe that Fulk is a de la Becs, all for their own gain of course. They'll be virtually independent barons and will confirm the folly in Nell's mind of her taking the throne at this stage. The interesting clergy are the Bishop of Durham and Archbishop of York and the positions they take. Will they urge Nell to be crowned, for example?
I have to apologise for the bit about Anne being left in charge. I'd got confused about William agreeing to letting her do more to help him.
Real mediaeval law. Vassals did marry without consent and paid a fine - Owen Tudor (bodyguard) and Catherine de Valois, Princess of France and Dowager Queen of England spring to mind. Actually most of what you're talking about was stopped by Magna Carta, except for tenants-in-chief, which Nell and Fulk are.
Aghast that Hugh actually sent the message. The more so since he sent her north to get married. Fulk turned out to be acceptable to the King of the Scots. Fulk and Nell are now Earl and Countess of Alnwick and vassals of the King of the Scots. Hugh has scottish support. Actually, aghast does not begin to describe my feelings.
The King can try to annul the marraige, but the Church will reject royal usurpation of their preogatives. Hugh's doing what he thinks is his kingly duty. Not in a million years he is not. He does not appear to need any assistance in beng the fool. Hugh has not been crowned and does not possess the royal seal nor can he demand fealty. He has obviously forgotten there is a civil war and yet he's asking Nell to ride, undefended without proper escort due her rank through hostile country. As the what Hugh will do - meh indeed. This is Hugh's idea of punishment and he's going to broadcast the contents of the letter, so turkeys do vote for Chrisrmas and christmas has certainly come for Trempwick.There's not a lord in the land who will regard Hugh as reasonable after this. The King of the Scots will be insulted enough to take several important towns and offer to sell them back to hugh for the million marks he's demanded from his vassals. Anne will tell her father, even if he does not learn of it through other means.
Matilda sent the men unasked simply to help her brother. Something as as simple as family loyalty.
Eleanor could take being threatened personally in her stride. It goes with the territory as an assassin. Threatening the unborn children is quite another. It places Hugh in the King Herod League. Eleanor has a fortnight to secure the earldom and put an end to Trempwick's control over Northumberland. She will have to move fast and prevent the messenger leaving without her response until the north is secured.
Several Yorkshire lords may chose to believe that Fulk is a de la Becs, all for their own gain of course. They'll be virtually independent barons and will confirm the folly in Nell's mind of her taking the throne at this stage. The interesting clergy are the Bishop of Durham and Archbishop of York and the positions they take. Will they urge Nell to be crowned, for example?
Hugh's letter seems like pure folly on the face of it. He seemed too calculating, too rational to do something like this for the sake of honor alone. It seems a lot more reasonable that the letter is one of Trempwick's excellent forgeries. It will definitely push Nell towards having to declare herself, or undertake a dangerous journey, which gives Trempwick the opportunity to 'rescue' his 'wife'. Both of these benefit Trempwick.
The threat against Nell's possible children seems odd, though. Isn't it well established that she probably shouldn't try to have children, or is that just among the royal family?
The threat against Nell's possible children seems odd, though. Isn't it well established that she probably shouldn't try to have children, or is that just among the royal family?
yes, well, I never bought the idea that she can't/shouldn't have children, and obviously I'm not the only one
As to dear old Chief, seems you blew up his whole argument froggy. I love being right, but the discussion was fun too. But obviously he's not gonna argue for Hugh as king anymore.
As to dear old Chief, seems you blew up his whole argument froggy. I love being right, but the discussion was fun too. But obviously he's not gonna argue for Hugh as king anymore.
Avernite said:yes, well, I never bought the idea that she can't/shouldn't have children, and obviously I'm not the only one
obviously he's not gonna argue for Hugh as king anymore.
I agree with you that Eleanor will have children.
I took the opportunity, early this morning, to read some of the updates to diine where this letter from Hugh may have come. Hugh has constructed this image of how a king should act. His letter is noit going to have the results he wishes.
Hugh may be hoping that asking for so exobitant a sum - Eleanor could ask which two wealthy countries do you want me to conquer to pay it? - thw King of the Scots will turn around and go home. I think Malcolm will continue to support Hugh, offeriing him a couple of towns for a million marks and support Hugh as King of England. A king as dumb as Hugh appears to be would offer the Scots the best chance to expand south.
The letter changes nothing as far as Eleanor's immediate task is concerned. The letter does notrule Hugh out as King either.
Ok, I was right that Fulk and Nell agreed they will raise her banner once the Earldom is secure.
Does that mean she is going for the throne Froggy? You carefully didn't state that...
Does that mean she is going for the throne Froggy? You carefully didn't state that...