The Machiavellian Adventures of Princess Eleanor

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You assert that Hugh has done what he must and been nearly sick about a number of times. Some examples would be most welcome. You than proceesd to say that Hugh must choose the personality and that once he has he'd be an evil king or if he did not he wouldn't be a nice king.

Eisenhower did not want to commit to the Normandy landings in less than perfect weather conditions, but he did because he saw it must be done. He became a two-term American president and neither broke down down nor changed his personality. I haven't seen any history that says he wasn't a nice president or that he was an evil one.

I am reminded, also, of the old joke - I don't want to go to school today. You must dear, you're the headmaster.

Hugh's ability to rationalise is part of his personality already.

Trempwick exists within a bubble created by calculation about how people will act and the outside forces that will be needed to create the circumstances Trempwick wants. He's much like a hurricane; he moves in the eye, whilst the storm swirls around. He only appears to be stable.

 

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"He needed the men. The most tragic, the most abjectly shaming aspect of this entire affair was that. He could not reject them. He had prayed morning, noon and night for aid in his plight, and here it had come. In its coming it humbled him, and demanded further abasing of his pride. Pride, which was a sin, and so to be hunted down and cleansed. "

On page 40, Hugh making clear that his own being is, essentially, wrong. It does not sound healthy to me to be constantly thinking you are not good enough, need to reform, must be better, because right now what you do is sinfull yadda yadda.

He sounds like he believes he is doing wrong, that he is sinning. That is quite different from gambling on a good result like your Eisenhower quote seems to imply.

 

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I didn't quote Eisenhower. I used an example of the general who set D-Day in motion because he knew he must, even though emotionally he felt differently.

I interpret the words in a different way. Hugh wishes he had more men, prays for aid. When the help arrives Hugh feels a sense of pride that not only does God answer his prayers but also that he has God's backing. Realising that Pride is one of the Seven deadly Sins - and the priests hammer that home every Sunday - he resolves to humble and abase himself. Hugh believes that he is accountable to a higher authority. Seems healthy enough to me.

 

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I didn't quote Eisenhower. I used an example of the general who set D-Day in motion because he knew he must, even though emotionally he felt differently.

I interpret the words in a different way. Hugh wishes he had more men, prays for aid. When the help arrives Hugh feels a sense of pride that not only does God answer his prayers but also that he has God's backing. Realising that Pride is one of the Seven deadly Sins - and the priests hammer that home every Sunday - he resolves to humble and abase himself. Hugh believes that he is accountable to a higher authority. Seems healthy enough to me.

I'd say his pride was in wishing they really weren't there even though he did pray for it. The pride is in him in his heart rejecting the gift, and he then decides that his thoughts are wrong and he shouldn't be allowed to think it. Higher authority is fine, but I tend to believe attempting to suppress thoughts is hard at best, and detrimental to your mental health at worst.

 

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Hugh prayed foir help and it came. He didn't reject the gift. His pride was that his prayer was answered. He's not suppressing thoughts.

 

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Hugh prayed foir help and it came. He didn't reject the gift. His pride was that his prayer was answered. He's not suppressing thoughts.

Really, that is a great difference in interpretation. I really read the pride part as 'being ungratefull when his prayers are answered'.

 

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He could not reject the gift. Ingratitude is not pride.

 

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He could not reject the gift. Ingratitude is not pride.

Being to proud to accept a gift when it presents itself because of a few side-effects looks pridefull to me.

 

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The emotion Hugh has is one of shame that he has to accept the gift. Therefore the pride that he has must be caused by something else. The only other thing that happens in the section of text you extracted is that Hugh prays and his prayer is answered. Since he feels shame about the Germans, the pride must come from the fact that his prayer was answered.

 

[Avernite]

The emotion Hugh has is one of shame that he has to accept the gift. Therefore the pride that he has must be caused by something else. The only other thing that happens in the section of text you extracted is that Hugh prays and his prayer is answered. Since he feels shame about the Germans, the pride must come from the fact that his prayer was answered.

Why? Is it not pridefull to feel shame over accepting a gift you've asked for? You ask God something, He delivers, and still you complain. I call that pride.

 

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Why? Is it not pridefull to feel shame over accepting a gift you've asked for? You ask God something, He delivers, and still you complain. I call that pride.

You can call it what you will. The rest of us will call it what it is, ingratitude.

People made much of someone having a prayer answered back in Mediaeval times. Such people became celebrities and those to whom others turned to ask to say their prayers. Many became hermits to avoid the crowds of people and took to whipping themselves for the feelings of pride this evoked within and for some it was the start of a process that lead to canonisation. We'll probably learn, later on, that there was another, less divine, inspiration for the presence of the germans. For now, Hugh has the status of someone whom God has answered.

 

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Oh come on! I could pray every day that the sun come up, and voila, it does! Doesn't make me pridefull to say that yes, I prayed for it, and yes, it happened.

 

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Oh come on! I could pray every day that the sun come up, and voila, it does! Doesn't make me pridefull to say that yes, I prayed for it, and yes, it happened.

The Aztecs ripped out tens of thousands of hearts to ensure that it continued to rise each day.

No mediaeval Christian would have considered praying for the sun to rise each day. There's a distinction, too, between paryers said in Church for the generality and those issued privately. It's the answer to a private personal prayer that brings the piety, prestige and, often times, pride.

 

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The Aztecs ripped out tens of thousands of hearts to ensure that it continued to rise each day.

No mediaeval Christian would have considered praying for the sun to rise each day. There's a distinction, too, between paryers said in Church for the generality and those issued privately. It's the answer to a private personal prayer that brings the piety, prestige and, often times, pride.

Well, okay, I could pray for tomorrow to be sunny, and if I kept it up long enough, it would happen. Oh, and your first and second sentence make little sense, the first says 'paraying for the sun to rise is ok' and the second contradicts that...?

And I do see Hugh as thinking 'well, I asked for it, prayed for it night and day, and now I don't like the help I got because of my pride.'

 

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No, I was contrasting your flippant remark about the sun rising each day with the Aztec world-view that caused tens of thousands to die. I did not say that it was ok to pray that the sun rise each day.

I then explained to you that a Christian with the mediaeval worldview would never have considered making any such prayer. In Church each week, the Priests would have lead them through general prayers.

It is the successful answering of a prayer that helps yourself or your loved ones that can be the cause of pride.

Hugh felt shame that he had to pray for help, felt shame that the Germans came, shame that he could not send them away. There's no pride in there. The only source of pride is that his prayer for help was answered

 

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Huh? Well, I see asking for something but complaining that it ain't good enough as pride. If you don't, we obviously aren't going to agree...

 

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You think complaining about something you have received is pride. You have got to be winding me up. Either that or your dictionary is missing an interesting selection of pages.

It's ingratitude.

 

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You think complaining about something you have received is pride. You have got to be winding me up. Either that or your dictionary is missing an interesting selection of pages.

It's ingratitude.

Meh, well, obviously there could be some loss in translation, but the Dutch word that most closely resembles 'pride' (trots) can be very much construed to apply to a person who rejects aid.

 

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Meh, well, obviously there could be some loss in translation, but the Dutch word that most closely resembles 'pride' (trots) can be very much construed to apply to a person who rejects aid.

It can indeed. In this circumstance, Hugh did not reject the aid. His ingratitude, however, could cause him problems as King, if he starts complaining about the gifts he receives from other rulers. The giving and receiving of gifts is an important part of kingship. Hugh did not learn his lessons in that area. I wonder who his tutor was? It's not likely to have been Trempwick's duty, so, no, I'm not blaming him for this.

 

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It's not likely to have been Trempwick's duty, so, no, I'm not blaming him for this.

My, did my feet suddenly get cold? :rofl:


In any case, I believe that, since a full-out rejection is pride, a mental desire to reject it could, for such a thought-conscious person as Hugh, be seen as pride aswell.