Ideologies segragate with time. Communist fought each other several times. Also... the sino-soviet split
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Ideologies segragate with time. Communist fought each other several times. Also... the sino-soviet split
You can't talk about that ideologies seperate in case of the Generalgouvernement...all leaders were NSDAP members and Germans. Vichy is a case like this too. Annex without a single drop of German blood spilled.
+1
The same would have applied to all Reichskommissariats as well.
What I'm worried about now is that DH creates this unrealistic choice of puppeting Reichskommissariats as their own countries instead of integrating them to the Reich as the "historically plausible outcome", where as in reality Reichskommissariats never did and never would have been given such status.
The line between realism and gameplay has to be drawn somewhere. Leaving that huge landmass to the player to handle simply because "The real Germany would never have done it" is no reason. Again, you don't HAVE to release the Reichskomissariats; if you find them unrealistic, don't release them.
The Reichskommissariat organization was just an administrative tool for Germany to govern occupied areas. They were not intended to be turned into autonomous entities in ANY way whatsoever - neither economically, nor militarily, nor politically. So I'm a little puzzled as well about this decision to include them. It's a bit like introducing SHAFE as a releasable puppet nation (covering all of Europe) for the USA.
I can see how you want to let the player dump the partisan problem in occupied Russia into the AI's lap - but why would you also want to give away the option to build infrastructure, fortifications etc in the occupied territories???
I can see how you want to let the player dump the partisan problem in occupied Russia into the AI's lap - but why would you also want to give away the option to build infrastructure, fortifications etc in the occupied territories???
Not to mention those puppets will also start diplomatic relations with foreign nations...laughable.
Puppets do not trade or have any diplomatic relations with other countries then the master in all HoI branches I know about.
Then don't release them (but I don't think they have relations with other countries anyway)?
I just don't see the fuss about giving the player more countries he can free and puppet? If a player wants to do a WC and deal with the unrest and managing all the territory then fine... if the player wants to create a large block of allies/puppets, then fine. Or anywhere in between. If I want to create a Reichskommissariat, why not? If you don't, why not?
I'm all for more options.
Still, I see the reichskommissariats as a pretty good options for a post war nazi puppeted Europe. If you look at maps for Neuropa you'll see that borders are similar to those of the reichskommissariats. If the Germans won the war its quite obvious they would not have directly ruled all of Europe, nevertheless, the German innfluence would have been strong.
Think of the Japanese puppet states Mengkukuo and Manchukuo, and the Soviet satelite Tannu Tuva. I don't think these countries had a shred of more autonomy than the reichskommissariats
Think of the Japanese puppet states Mengkukuo and Manchukuo, and the Soviet satelite Tannu Tuva. I don't think these countries had a shred of more autonomy than the reichskommissariats
The Japanese comparison is unwarranted as the Nazis had no plans of ever releasing the Reichskommissariats from German rule. The whole function of the Reichskommissariat system was to prepare the regions in question for an eventual annexation into the Germanic Reich. Ukraine and Ostland were to be Germanized in a time span of 30 years. That's was the whole point of Operation Barbarossa: the acquisition of Lebensraum for the Germanic master race.
Independent General Government, Reichskommissariats and Protectorate are IMO terrible ideas and EXTREMELY unhistorical. If you want a puppet Ukraine or Belarus, fine, that's at least somehow historically plausible, but to represent these quasi-colonial administrative systems as independent countries is just silly.
German reich all over Europe with no reginoal autonomy, not even in the "germanized" regions? Sounds like a typical popular wiev. But well, thats certainly not what I've read. By the way, Denmark and Norway had limited autonomy during the german occupation. Axis allies like Slovakia and Croatia also had some form of autonomy. As long as they did what the Germans said everything was fine. Kind of like FRGs situation after the allied occupation of Germany really. As long as the Americans decided everything it was all fine
There are no events to release the General-Gouvernement, nor the AI is instructed to do that as far as I know.
It has been included only for completion, exclusively for the pleasure of the human player.
Regarding the Reichskommissariats, let me give this quote:
It has been included only for completion, exclusively for the pleasure of the human player.
Regarding the Reichskommissariats, let me give this quote:
Again, we are giving players who are willing to the opportunity to release such entities as puppet governments. Those who don't like it are free not to use this feature.
Therefore there really is no need to complain about a feature that you can choose not to use.
And we are not going to remove them.
Hope this addresses the misunderstanding.
Therefore there really is no need to complain about a feature that you can choose not to use.
And we are not going to remove them.
Hope this addresses the misunderstanding.
Again, we are giving players who are willing to the opportunity to release such entities as puppet governments. Those who don't like it are free not to use this feature.
Therefore there really is no need to complain about a feature that you can choose not to use.
And we are not going to remove them.
Hope this addresses the misunderstanding.
If ai won't release reichkommissariats that's ok. If ai will release them...well it's just would be an exploit - no partisans, no TC problems
Slovakia and Croatia were puppet states, totally different from the Reichskommissariats. Occupied Denmark wasn't a Reichskommissariat in the first place, so I don't get your comparison. Norway had zero autonomy, it was administered as a part of the Reich. The Quisling government was set-up for propaganda purposes and was increasingly marginalized as the war progressed. All political power was in the hands of Terboven and the Germanic SS.
Please give me a source that states that Hitler planned to give "regional autonomy" to Ostland or Ukraine. Rosenberg's fantasies didn't impress Hitler, as one can see from the Generalplan Ost.
Independent General Government, Ukraine or Ostland don't bother me as long as the AI doesn't ever puppet them.
Even a German victory is ahistorical, so what's wrong with going a bit more ahistorical with the puppets? I'm not sure how many realise, but the novel Fatherland by Robert Harris has probably influenced the 1964 end date of HoI2, and has also given the names for the Reichskomissariats.
You seem to be certain of things which are at least debatable. Germany could probably win the war before Stalingrad IMO. Unless you use the word "ahistorical" with the meaning that it "didn't happen", but that makes little sense in the context of a HOI game.
Alright, as long as the AI doesn't release these nonsense "nations" I'm pretty fine with it. In MP games I'll just have to make house rules not to release them (or create a modded revolt.txt file for everyone).
IMO they lost the war in 1941 when Hitler decided to split up Heeresgruppe Mitte and delay the attack on Moscow. Though it's another matter if they could've captured that hub of all Soviet communications and supply lines in the summer of 1942. For more discussion on this I suggest PMs.
I laughed at the ending of the movie version of that btw. It was so stupidly unrealistic. Also the map (at least the one on Wiki) made no sense in some parts and showed bad historical research behind it.
IMO they lost the war in 1941 when Hitler decided to split up Heeresgruppe Mitte and delay the attack on Moscow. Though it's another matter if they could've captured that hub of all Soviet communications and supply lines in the summer of 1942. For more discussion on this I suggest PMs.
I laughed at the ending of the movie version of that btw. It was so stupidly unrealistic. Also the map (at least the one on Wiki) made no sense in some parts and showed bad historical research behind it.
Limited autonomy actually existed, alltough the German military administration always had the last word. Kind of typical for any military administration (post war japan and FRG)
Puppet state - You can govern your self as long as you govern as we want you to
Military administration - We govern you
You see, de facto the difference is irrelevant.
Speaking about propaganda. Post war propaganda tells us that every non-german hatet the nazis and that there never was any wide and fruitable coporation between the nazis and the population in occupied territories. The case however was that many welcomed the germans and more than willingly cooperated with them. Cooperation was more usual than resistance in Norway and Denmark for instance, allthough this has not been written in our history books until now
Well, I think Ai can, or infact should puppet them, at least after the war. Beacuase an all grey Europe directly controlled from Berlin is more unrealistic. The same is Ukrainian and Russian nazi puppets.
I'm probably focusing more on identy and less on the technical berocracy in the milirary-political administrationthan than you guys...
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