The logic behind independent Reichskommissariats etc.

[Fulmen]

What exactly is it?

If we have Reichskommissariats and the Generalgouvernement as puppets for the Reich, then why is there no Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren? Or the SSRs of the Soviet Union? Or hell, even the federal states of USA and Mexico? Because quite frankly they too fit into this field.

Although the aforementioned subjects/parts of various countries would be better simulated by a completely new form of entity (rather than a country which is simply puppeted), I'm generally fine with this...or at least would be if it weren't for the fact that the DH team has done just one bit and ignored the other. It simply makes no sense to make just a chosen few such entities as puppet-nations and not make the rest while you're at it.

Anyone else feel the same?

 

[xtfoster]

What exactly is it?

If we have Reichskommissariats and the Generalgouvernement as puppets for the Reich, then why is there no Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren? Or the SSRs of the Soviet Union? Or hell, even the federal states of USA and Mexico? Because quite frankly they too fit into this field.

Although the aforementioned subjects/parts of various countries would be better simulated by a completely new form of entity (rather than a country which is simply puppeted), I'm generally fine with this...or at least would be if it weren't for the fact that the DH team has done just one bit and ignored the other. It simply makes no sense to make just a chosen few such entities as puppet-nations and not make the rest while you're at it.

Anyone else feel the same?

All I can say is that Puppets in DH are not the same as puppets in HOI2

 

[Fulmen]

All I can say is that Puppets in DH are not the same as puppets in HOI2

What will that make the HoI2-style puppets then? Slovakia for example?

And if puppets are now simply territories administrated in a similar fashion to the Generalgouvernement, the Reichskommissariats, the French Mandate of Syria and Lebanon etc. then surely all of the world's territories like that must be taken into account.

 

[tuore]

Ah, but ALL the world's territories were not relevant in the World Wars.
Why should all the states of the USA be puppets too? As far as I'm aware, tey start under the USA and rarely ever change hands. Germany conquers a huge area of land from the Soviets, surely they would want to easen the burden of partisan actions and administrating an area so big.

 

[Fernando Torres]

We added such puppets because we thought it would be fun for players to choose between military occupation and install such fantoche governments.
That way players can redraw Europe at will after the war, whether the Allies, the Komintern or the Axis won the war.

 

[Grimlin]

If we have Reichskommissariats and the Generalgouvernement as puppets for the Reich, then why is there no Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren? Or the SSRs of the Soviet Union? Or hell, even the federal states of USA and Mexico? Because quite frankly they too fit into this field.

I think those puppets are tied to ahistoric decisions or event choices. In SMEP one could chose between historic "Lebensraum" occupation and releasing several different sets of puppets. I like the Reichskommissariate better than Baltica and Caucasia to be honest.

 

[Fulmen]

Ah, but ALL the world's territories were not relevant in the World Wars.
Why should all the states of the USA be puppets too? As far as I'm aware, tey start under the USA and rarely ever change hands. Germany conquers a huge area of land from the Soviets, surely they would want to easen the burden of partisan actions and administrating an area so big.

But what about the USSR?

We added such puppets because we thought it would be fun for players to choose between military occupation and install such fantoche governments.
That way players can redraw Europe at will after the war, whether the Allies, the Komintern or the Axis won the war.

You're ignoring the point. If these are puppets, why aren't others similar to them as well?

And partisans should still be a problem at least for a few years (mimicing the resistance movement in the Baltics against the Soviets), especially in Russia-proper.

Also is there a possibility to incorporate the Reichskommissariats into the Reich itself? The Reichskommissariats were just another German administrative entity and were viewed as a transitional phase before being completely incorporated into the Reich (at least in the case of the eastern Reichskommissariats).

 

[tuore]

But what about the USSR?

What about them? If they conquer Germany and Finland, they can very well release DDR, Finnish Democratic Republic, Communist Poland, the Baltics etc.
There are Socialist Republic versions of all the Balkans, Netherlands and France (as well as the usual DDR, Poland and similar).

The point is, Russia is a big nation. If Germany conquers all the way to Urals, there is very little options on what to do with the land. Europe, on the other hand, has a lot of nations, thus allows extensive amount of puppets to be created.

 

[Fulmen]

What about them? If they conquer Germany and Finland, they can very well release DDR, Finnish Democratic Republic, Communist Poland, the Baltics etc.
There are Socialist Republic versions of all the Balkans, Netherlands and France (as well as the usual DDR, Poland and similar).

The point is, Russia is a big nation. If Germany conquers all the way to Urals, there is very little options on what to do with the land. Europe, on the other hand, has a lot of nations, thus allows extensive amount of puppets to be created.

Those are all different to SSRs... SSRs are "Republics" within the USSR itself. If we have Reichskommissariats represented as independent entities then obviously we should also have the SSRs represented.

For more info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_of_the_Soviet_Union

I don't quite understand what you're trying to say with that. Germany can occupy it or create puppets. We know from history that Hitler intended to enlarge the Reich into the East. Therefore Reichskommissariats as puppets should only be temporary (they were a so called transitional phase) or not exist at all if other similar political entities like the SSRs of the USSR aren't included.

 

[tuore]

Why would the USSR release the SSRs, which have been a part of it since it was formed?

 

[Fulmen]

Why would the USSR release the SSRs, which have been a part of it since it was formed?

The USSR doesn't have to release them. They should already be there.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but the DH team thinks that the Reichskommissariats are their own ethnic nations whose political leaders are just controlled by a leash from Berlin? This couldn't be more wrong (even if the leaders themselves are German). The Reichskommissariats were just another name for German administration over territories that were to be colonized by Germans and incorporated into the Reich. The Slavic populations were to be Germanized and the remainder to be kept as servants to the Germans. Now of course Hitler had the possibility to use the good will of the liberated populations of the Baltics, Belorussia and Ukraine to his advantage and form true ethnic nations (although puppeted), but in such a case they definitely shouldn't be called Reichskommissariats.

And if there is a Generalgouvernement then why the hell isn't the Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren in too? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[tuore]

The USSR doesn't have to release them. They should already be there.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but the DH team thinks that the Reichskommissariats are their own ethnic nations whose political leaders are just controlled by a leash from Berlin? This couldn't be more wrong (even if the leaders themselves are German). The Reichskommissariats were just another name for German administration over territories that were to be colonized by Germans and incorporated into the Reich. The Slavic populations were to be Germanized and the remainder to be kept as servants to the Germans. Now of course Hitler had the possibility to use the good will of the liberated populations of the Baltics, Belorussia and Ukraine to his advantage and form true ethnic nations (although puppeted), but in such a case they definitely shouldn't be called Reichskommissariats.

The way I see it is that the puppet nation is the administration appointed to handle the local partisan issues, German colonization and industrial reconstruction. The SSR's of the USSR aren't really rebellious, nor are they crippled after a war, nor are they being colonized by Russians.

And if there is a Generalgouvernement then why the hell isn't the Protektorat Böhmen und Mähren in too? It just doesn't make sense.

I won't comment on this since I wasn't there when they were made. I personally think that Bohemia & Moravia should be in.

 

[Cybvep]

Sorry, but how do you imagine playing the SU with 105671515806 puppets? Or USA with 1056195816 states? It's rather funny, while in case of Germany it has clear gameplay reasons, as mentioned by the members of the team.

I personally think that Bohemia & Moravia should be in.

Me too.

 

[Fulmen]

The way I see it is that the puppet nation is the administration appointed to handle the local partisan issues, German colonization and industrial reconstruction.

Well if this is the case then there should be decisions over time to directly incorporate them into the Reich.

The SSR's of the USSR aren't really rebellious, nor are they crippled after a war, nor are they being colonized by Russians.

I'm sorry, but did you sleep during the history lessons?

All of them were actively being colonized by Russians and the natives were being transferred to regions like Siberia or outright liquidated, the remainder being subject to Russification. For example the Baltics were by the early 1980s about 50% Russian and the Baltic people would've lost that "battle" if the USSR hadn't collapsed in 1991. In Kazakhstan by 1959 the Russians were a majority (42,7% while the natives were only 30% of the pop.).

There also were resistance movements in all of these SSRs during the game's timeperiod (1914-64). By WWII the most significant movements were in the Baltics and Eastern Poland.

And oh yes, the economies of the Western SSRs were indeed very crippled after WWII.

Sorry, but how do you imagine playing the SU with 105671515806 puppets? Or USA with 1056195816 states? It's rather funny, while in case of Germany it has clear gameplay reasons, as mentioned by the members of the team.

A powerful Germany with a shitload of puppets doesn't really differ from a Soviet Union with the same amount of puppets in terms of playability. But tbh I'm beginning to be in total favour of not having these entities as puppets at all, due to the lack of logic behind them. In this case the land was intended to be German (or Russian in the case of the SSRs) anyway.

 

[Cybvep]

In case of Germany it has a gameplay value, because it concern only partisan-filled eastern territories. In case of USSR it would only decrease the country's potential IC- and MP-wise without adding any gameplay value. However, I agree that there should be an option of "annexing" the puppet into the master country, with the possibility of a conflict erupting.

In case of the USA it would simply not make sense gameplay-wise, as there would be several "countries" in HOI2 terms and no USA. And even if there was an invisible "USA" country with military control over puppets, it would still be so divided IC- and MP-wise that it would suxx from gameplay perspective.

 

[tuore]

However, I agree that there should be an option of "annexing" the puppet into the master country, with the possibility of a conflict erupting.

Then again, if Germany beats the USSR, they probably are already so strong that no one would dare to declare war over that.

 

[Cybvep]

Yes, but from gameplay perspective, it may be better to leave that territory to the "puppets" for the time being, while Germany would have to concern itself with Sea Lion, invasion of North America or other important stuff

 

[Fulmen]

In case of Germany it has a gameplay value, because it concern only partisan-filled eastern territories. In case of USSR it would only decrease the country's potential IC- and MP-wise without adding any gameplay value. However, I agree that there should be an option of "annexing" the puppet into the master country, with the possibility of a conflict erupting.

In case of the USA it would simply not make sense gameplay-wise, as there would be several "countries" in HOI2 terms and no USA. And even if there was an invisible "USA" country with military control over puppets, it would still be so divided IC- and MP-wise that it would suxx from gameplay perspective.

IMO the USSR shouldn't get cores in the M-R Pact at all. Maybe over time through Russification but not in one simple event. In CORE for instance they don't get cores, but do inherit the Baltics through a series of events, which represents taking over the Baltics' stuff (ships, forming some units etc.).

I've come to the same conclusion about USA and Mexico (and other N. and S.American federal states) but I think the USSR is still very much comparable to Germany's Reichskommissariats.

 

[Cybvep]

I agree about the cores. In case of Poland the resistance was stiff in both German and Russian occupation zones, so "claims" would work better than "cores". Naturally, Danzig is an exception.

 

[Fulmen]

Danzig and maybe the other territories lost in the Treaty of Versailles should be cores, but definitely not areas like Lodz and Suwalki which were also directly incorporated into the Reich.