The Little Ice Age

[Amric]

Something that wasn't really addressed all that well in EUII was the Little Ice Age which had a TREMENDOUS impact on Europe and North America. Winters were longer than we are used to now and brutally cold with a lot of snow. Even in Venice Italy it was something for the canals to freeze over, but they did. In fact famine and deaths in the tens of thousands weren't unusual in various nations, especially France where the peasants stubbornly clung to raising grain crops. So much so that the King of France had it be known that he ate potatoes at his own royal table in the hopes that the people would start to grow them. Grain crops were very susceptible to failure in the EUII or even EUIII time period. It happened far more frequently than most realize. It also didn't help that a Pope actually called the potato a 'crop of the devil' and urged people not to eat it. That may have helped kill many thousands of french peasants as they even refused to grow them when their king asked them to do so.

I think it should be better modelled in EUIII. With more crop failures and famines especially during the late part of winter and early spring. Winters were known to last into late May or even early June in Europe. Even to start as early as late September in some years. It made for a much shorter growing period. It didn't help with armies tramping over the lands either. Another reason why the peasants in Germany started growing potatoes during the 30 years war. Soldiers tramping over potato fields caused far less damage and weren't being burned by the enemy. Unlike grain crops which were indeed burned and trampled during war.

Just a thought. I always felt that the LIA should be better represented in the game. There is a reason you see the picture of George Washington crossing the Delaware in a rowboat with ice floes and ice all over the river. It was COLD. People died in droves when crops failed and it isn't really modelled as it should be. Adds a bit more realism in my opinion.

 

[Da Swede]

Couldn't agree more, it's something that I want to see too.

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Not to mention the frozen Danish belts that resulted in the Swedish near-conquest of Denmark

 

[Sleepyhead]

Not to mention the frozen Danish belts that resulted in the Swedish near-conquest of Denmark

Yeah: It was just a near-conquest

 

[Yakman]

Yeah: It was just a near-conquest

Seriously. Shoulda messed them danes up!

 

[unmerged(15337)]

How exactly should the Little Ice Age be represented in the game? Longer winters? More provinces with snow? Allow the Swedes to cross into Denmark? Lower army support limits? Or ... ???

And for how long -- the whole campaign?

 

[unmerged(9313)]

Seriously. Shoulda messed them danes up!

Well, for once the Copenhageners showed some balls. A rare event, but still.

And you, be quiet!

 

[unmerged(11427)]

I hope we will see some deterministic events like a global climate change during Little Ice Age.

I would like to suggest some more of those extraterrestrial flavour events. I suggest 2 supernovas which occured in our Galaxy during the game timeframe (in 1572 and 1604).

Also various comets could appear as they historically did.

The impact of such events could depend on culture (pagan, etc.) and tech level of a country.

 

[Registered]

Also various comets could appear as they historically did.

Tue, comets should not really be a randome event. They're quite regular.

 

[curtis]

Tue, comets should not really be a randome event. They're quite regular.

But meteors were random events in EU2, causing instability. Frankly, I don't like half-a$$ed moons determining my country's stability

I think for the little ice age, winters should be one month longer. Problem solved.

 

[unmerged(5822)]

But meteors were random events in EU2, causing instability. Frankly, I don't like half-a$$ed moons determining my country's stability

Must... resist... gah!

http://dir.salon.com/story/comics/tomo/2003/01/13/tomo/index.html

 

[unmerged(49112)]

Well it didn't only affect crops and people, but the outcomes of some wars.
It helped England defeat the spanish armada, when Washington crossed the delaware. Also caused the outbrake of witch hunters during the late 14th and early 15th century, people blamed it on them,the introduction of potatoe to Europe, new farming methods, among other things that I can't remember( I saw it on national geographic, I think, some time ago.)

 

[Skarion]

But meteors were random events in EU2, causing instability. Frankly, I don't like half-a$$ed moons determining my country's stability

Meteors was a shown of God's will of a reveloution and a switch of gouvernment to happend.

I think twice people suddenly decided to try to commit a coup d'êtat in Sweden just because of that they had seen a meteor flying past. Sadly for them you can't trust peasant lore.

 

[unmerged(11427)]

Oh, I forgot total eclipses. Those are also deterministic events and also rather local.

But, I suppose that those were understood rather well by astronomers of the time. Anyway, might add some flavour.

EDIT: On a second thought, the list of Solar eclipses might be too long. We don't want flavour events to slow down the game.

 

[Amric]

Historically the LIA lasted from just after 1000 AD into the mid 1800's. So the entire game. Winters should be longer, more provinces should be snow covered and I already mentioned famines and crop failures that resulted in famines.

 

[Da Swede]

The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling lasting approximately from the 14th to the mid-19th centuries (some say from 13th to 17th), although there is no generally agreed start or end date: some confine the period to 1550-1850. This cooler period occurs after a warmer era known as the Medieval climate optimum. There were three minima, beginning about 1650, about 1770, and 1850, each separated by slight warming intervals [1].

Source: Wikipedia

Amric You overshot the frame abit

 

[unmerged(11600)]

Amric You overshot the frame abit

Right. The Optimum started around 900 CE, and in the Americas is associated with the collapse of Teotihuacan and Late Classic Maya, and the extention of maize agriculture into the Great Lakes region.

Adding climate changes to the flow of the game would be great, though.

-Pat

 

[Tunch Khan]

Here is some info regarding the freezing of the Bosphorus Strait, in the winter of those years I would make an army cross the strait even if there are hostile navies in the Marmara Sea. Speaking of navies and winter, the attrition should be extremely high for the ships during the winter months even inside the Mediterranean. No Ottoman fleet would sail for 6-8 months until the summer at all.

The first period was around the 1st century. Although the temperature was close to or perhaps a little lower than, that of the present, Ovidius indicates 3 successive freezing events between 7-17 AD. The second cold period was in the 4th century. At that time Scaliger reports another freezing event in 401 AD. Then there was a slight increase in temperature up to the beginning of the 8th century. The third cold period extending from the middle of the 8th century to the 13th, during which the Bosphorus, and even parts of the Black Sea, were repeatedly frozen, and floating ice masses were present in the Sea of Marmara in 739, 753, 755, 762, 928, 934, 1011 and 1232. Winters were markedly mild for 400 years from the middle of the 13th century to the middle of the 17th. The fourth colder period starting in the early middle of the 17th century and lasting up to the present day was characterized by severe winters (with freezing of the Bosphorus, the Golden Horn and parts of the Black Sea in 1620, 1669, 1755, 1823, 1849, 1862, 1893, 1929, 1954). However, the intensity of the winter cold has gradually diminished during this interval.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

The Little Ice Age (LIA) was a period of cooling lasting approximately from the 14th to the mid-19th centuries (some say from 13th to 17th), although there is no generally agreed start or end date: some confine the period to 1550-1850. This cooler period occurs after a warmer era known as the Medieval climate optimum. There were three minima, beginning about 1650, about 1770, and 1850, each separated by slight warming intervals [1].

Source: Wikipedia

Amric You overshot the frame abit

So it seems to me, that what you are suggesting is just longer winters and higher attrition during about 75% of the game. That in fact means that the LIA shouldn't be a special event, but the fact the for 25% of the game the climate should be milder, that should give special events

Why have special events for something that can be considered as the normal climate/weather pattern during that period ?

Post 6,700

 

[unmerged(23439)]

When you consider the duration of the LIA (most of the game), the original post actually makes a better argument for the importance of introducing new crops to Europe (and other places). Potatoes, tomatoes, corn, peanuts, sweet potatoes, tobacco (and some grape species) were all new world species. The redistribution of these species and resulting dramatic impacts on agriculture around the world certainly DID take place during the game period.

EU II does have the random agricultural revolution event, but that was more a change in farming practices (using manure and machinery to make farming more productive).

I know that climate change is a much more current topic in the media so you are much more likely to see a TV show on the little ice age than on introduction of new crops.