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Skylax

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If what you say about Empire of Sin is true, and if they have really stopped developing the game (I haven't seen any announcement to that effect, but Imperator either, you'll tell me) it's an absolute shame. Limit it will deserve a complaint from the players to be reimbursed by paradox.
There hasn't been any communication at all for one and a half years now. So it's pretty safe to assume that the game is abandonded. They simply don't communicate it because then they would have to reimburse people who bought the season pass including TWO dlc while they only managed to release one.


That's a...strange expectation.
I just quoted the person above.
 
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darkyodada

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There hasn't been any communication at all for one and a half years now. So it's pretty safe to assume that the game is abandonded. They simply don't communicate it because then they would have to reimburse people who bought the season pass including TWO dlc while they only managed to release one.



I just quoted the person above.
Whether they communicate or not, if the game is effectively abandoned and no one is working on it anymore, they must reimburse the season pass buyers. In any case, it is very likely that a court seizes will go in this direction. These acts must be harshly sanctioned and the companies which act in this way must be punished as much by the players and by legal actions.
 
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That's a...strange expectation. Since we're throwing around third-party sites, SteamSpy says the median total playtime for HoI 4 is 48 hours.
All the data found at third party sites aren't equally accurate. Concurrent player numbers comes from the steam API, playtime does not. I don't know how steamspy estimates playtime, but vginsights are using data which would makes it no more accurate than a poll created on these forums would be...

As long as Paradox aren't giving us regular updates on player numbers and playtime, concurrent players from third party sites are going to be by far the most reliable indicator for the players of how things are going. In a couple of years the amount of updates the game is getting may also be an indicator.
 
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Holy shit. Sorry, there is so much wrong with this. This game has been released 6 months ago, 4/5th of the buyers don't think the game is good enough to play right now and you think this is fine because we will get many DLCs we can buy based on forum participation?

I mean graphs and player count aside, this game has a solid fanbase, people were hyped for the game, Vic3 had been a meme on this forum forever, before they actually announced it. It is troubling to see such a huge drop-off in numbers. DLCs are fine when they introduce new mechanics but the base game shouldn't be bad enough to drive 4/5th of the buyers away. I have always defended Paradox's DLC policy especially for Stellaris, EU IV, HoI IV - but if we start treating the vanilla release as some kind of Alpha-period in game development, I will abandon ship.

Also: HoI and Stellaris, while also dropping in popularity, released new mechanics within 190 days to re-spark interest in their games. Seeing Vicky3 player numbers quickly dropping again to previous levels after the release of the patch, I doubt that autonomous investment is enough to do the same for Vicky. The DLC has to be great and it has to arrive quickly.
This isn't some MMO where players are subscribed to basically only play Victoria 3. I never said that 4/5ths don't think the game is good enough, they could have liked the game but rather play something else right now. This pattern is true for like 99 percent of games especially single player games, where there is a big drop off after release. I will absolutely stand by my statement that engagement is an incredibly important marker because a lot players are still invested in this game but aren't playing it until new content comes out that includes most of the posters here except the few hate posters that have nothing better todo.
 
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darkyodada

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I don't work on the EoS so no, I can't answer. Now this thread is for Victoria 3 related questions, and any other comments will be deleted.
My question was if we could have the same graph for Imperator. If you are willing to let us know, don't hesitate to drop by the imperator forum to say hello. We are quite alone there.
 
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Day and night.

Weekend versus weekday.

Holidays.

Time of year.

As one might expect, fewer people play video games on a Monday morning than on a Saturday night.

And on a related note:

Many third-party sites show daily concurrent players, which is a different metric than daily active players.

Daily concurrent players only tells you the max amount of people who are playing at peak hours on a given day whereas daily active players tells you how many people are playing altogether on a given day.

Daily concurrent players is less useful if you want to know how many people are playing your game total, especially if your game has a large international audience. If there are 5,000 people playing in the US and 5,000 playing in China, with no overlapping playtime between the two groups, daily concurrent players would only be 5,000 despite 10,000 total people playing the game.

It’s also worth mentioning that every game experiences huge drop-offs in the days and weeks following launch. People buy the game at launch, play it with their friends, and then move onto the next big thing that everybody is hyped about. Very few games are constantly hitting peak numbers and these are limited to extremely popular big-name live-service multiplayer games.
I just assumed that the day and night cycle would be somewhat leveled out by time zones
 

Skylax

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This isn't some MMO where players are subscribed to basically only play Victoria 3. I never said that 4/5ths don't think the game is good enough, they could have liked the game but rather play something else right now. This pattern is true for like 99 percent of games especially single player games, where there is a big drop off after release. I will absolutely stand by my statement that engagement is an incredibly important marker because a lot players are still invested in this game but aren't playing it until new content comes out that includes most of the posters here except the few hate posters that have nothing better todo.
Well ok, then I misunderstood that:

Concurrent player numbers aren't that interesting to me right now anyways because they only show what amount of players think the game is good enough to play right now.

It makes more sense now that you explain it, I thought you wanted to say that PDX games are always just bare metal when released and only attract higher attraction once a couple of DLC hit the market. I think there are two ways to interpret that:
1. the DLC are great and add mechanics to the game that make them grow by attracting more regular players.
2. the vanilla games are not very attractive, lacking mechanics that make them interesting to keep players invested over a longer period of time. A circumstance that "polished" games with numerous DLC don't suffer from.

As I said, I have always defended the DLC policy of Paradox. But if my vanilla games aren't interesting enough to keep customers playing, I am gambling on the DLC to safe the cause and collect a few $/€/Cronas along the way. If things work out, we get a continous stream of DLC that add good content and make the game attractive to play even weeks after release and if they don't work out, the publisher is more than ready to jump shit and abandon those games (Imperator, EoS). I don't like that and it's tiresome.

HoI suffered from a range of issues (AI, balancing, bugs) but it's main problem was that it was boring because only the skeleton of the game was released. DLCs have been good.
The same thing is probably true for Vicky3. The base game is incredibly shallow, it suffers from bad UI choices and while I like the approach the game took when it comes to armed conflict, I have to say it's implementattion is increbibly boring. If we take it for granted that those games will only be good after X amount of DLCs then what is the point of buying the games in the first place? I don't think it's good practice to milk the fan base of a game for the time being to have a game that continiously attracts people playing it further down the road. If you need financing, crowd fund this thing or whatever. But HoI was painful for the first 2 years (at least), Vicky has been a painful experience for 150 days now and I fear that the next game will be same as well. Also, I am not buying smaller Paradox titles anymore for the fear of them being abandonded before they actually get good. It's a practice that will eventually drive the loyal customer base away.
 
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Spud's V2 cult follows him everywhere is seems.

I never will understand why people dedicate so much time and energy to a game they hate so much.
I don't think it's unreasonable for some of the biggest fans of the previous game to express disappointment in the new iteration if it doesn't live up to expectations. I think it's obvious this game has a number of design flaws that people are rightfully upset about. Paradox is a company and is motivated obviously by sales and player counts; if you want the game to change drastically, or the next iteration to take a different approach, it makes sense to hope the game struggles until it's fixed. To make another comparison to Imperator, you don't see mana too often in new Paradox games, since the fate of that game confirmed players hated that system.
 
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I'm relieved to see the line going up! The game has so much potential and I'm glad the updates you have all worked so hard on at Paradox are bringing people back.
 
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I don't know. At the peak of history, there should have been 70000 people using Vic3,This number includes Chinese players who refunded due to high BUGs at the time of release
I think you may have misread the numbers. This dev diary is not showing numbers all the way back to the launch of Vic 3. It is only showing back to February 1st, during this period there were significantly fewer playing Vic 3 than at its peak.

Unless China bans this kind of data collection (which I find unlikely) I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be included in the numbers. There may be a few players missing who are playing completely offline (assuming its possible for Vic 3), but I doubt those count for a lot of players.
 
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I don't think it's unreasonable for some of the biggest fans of the previous game to express disappointment in the new iteration if it doesn't live up to expectations. I think it's obvious this game has a number of design flaws that people are rightfully upset about. Paradox is a company and is motivated obviously by sales and player counts; if you want the game to change drastically, or the next iteration to take a different approach, it makes sense to hope the game struggles until it's fixed. To make another comparison to Imperator, you don't see mana too often in new Paradox games, since the fate of that game confirmed players hated that system.
My impression is that people do not necessarily take issue with others "expressing disappointment" about the new iteration, but rather with the manner and the frequency thereof. Some people fundamentally dislike the direction this game has taken. Duly noted. History will eventually show (by some measure) whether it is a success or not. In the meantime, I'm enjoying myself, as well as (seemingly) plenty of others. If you don't, then don't play the game and don't buy future DLCs. Repeating a known negative stance will only serve to further irritate those who are having fun, and illicitate predictably annoyed responses. Furthermore, hoping that the game struggles is one thing to do privately, but to state so publicly just seems petty. I get that you want your fun; why then attempt to deny me mine? I don't get it.

xkcd expressed the sentiment well:
rock_band.png
 
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As I said, I have always defended the DLC policy of Paradox. But if my vanilla games aren't interesting enough to keep customers playing, I am gambling on the DLC to safe the cause and collect a few $/€/Cronas along the way. If things work out, we get a continous stream of DLC that add good content and make the game attractive to play even weeks after release and if they don't work out, the publisher is more than ready to jump shit and abandon those games (Imperator, EoS). I don't like that and it's tiresome.

HoI suffered from a range of issues (AI, balancing, bugs) but it's main problem was that it was boring because only the skeleton of the game was released. DLCs have been good.
The same thing is probably true for Vicky3. The base game is incredibly shallow, it suffers from bad UI choices and while I like the approach the game took when it comes to armed conflict, I have to say it's implementattion is increbibly boring. If we take it for granted that those games will only be good after X amount of DLCs then what is the point of buying the games in the first place? I don't think it's good practice to milk the fan base of a game for the time being to have a game that continiously attracts people playing it further down the road. If you need financing, crowd fund this thing or whatever. But HoI was painful for the first 2 years (at least), Vicky has been a painful experience for 150 days now and I fear that the next game will be same as well. Also, I am not buying smaller Paradox titles anymore for the fear of them being abandonded before they actually get good. It's a practice that will eventually drive the loyal customer base away.
I think it depends on what you expect out of a game? I think it's fairly normal for people to check out the new stuff and then go on to other things.

I've only played three games over the past two decades where I invested more than 1000 hours into them. Two of those were subscription MMOs and the third was Factorio, which was heavily driven by a strong modding scene. But just because I put a game aside after playing it for a while, I don't consider it a failure if I enjoyed my time.

I've put about 150 hours into Victoria 3 across five different runs, two of which were with 1.2.4, and now I've moved onto other games. But I do intend to check back and try out the 1.3 and 1.4 updates when they come around. Maybe one of the updates will introduce something that makes me want to spend a lot more time with the game, the way CK3 1.7 did (for Vic 3 that would be stuff to do in the lategame because I get bored in the second half once I pass all the laws I wanted), maybe not, but I don't feel offended or ripped off by my purchase.

I'm also fine with Paradox's DLC model and prefer it to subscription services, and I think it's OK to not buy something if you're uncertain whether it'll be worthwhile right now. I think Paradox is fairly open with what you can expect in their games, at least for the in-house developed ones (not so much console or most third-party studios they publish for), and in most cases I had a reasonable idea of whether I'd enjoy something or not before buying it (though this gets trickier the later into a game's lifetime you get as a lot of info about the game becomes out of date).

I think people are overreacting a little bit to the I:R situation (which came amongst a major reorg into the four studios they have today), and a large part of that was because of how it was communicated (the communication director who made the announcement left the company and nobody else picked the ball up). EoS is published by Paradox, not developed by them, so I think it's held to a different standard, and Paradox themselves mentioned they were disappointed with the game's quality after launch (I don't see any similar disclosures about Vic 3 in the 2022 year end report).
 
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Well ok, then I misunderstood that:



It makes more sense now that you explain it, I thought you wanted to say that PDX games are always just bare metal when released and only attract higher attraction once a couple of DLC hit the market. I think there are two ways to interpret that:
1. the DLC are great and add mechanics to the game that make them grow by attracting more regular players.
2. the vanilla games are not very attractive, lacking mechanics that make them interesting to keep players invested over a longer period of time. A circumstance that "polished" games with numerous DLC don't suffer from.

As I said, I have always defended the DLC policy of Paradox. But if my vanilla games aren't interesting enough to keep customers playing, I am gambling on the DLC to safe the cause and collect a few $/€/Cronas along the way. If things work out, we get a continous stream of DLC that add good content and make the game attractive to play even weeks after release and if they don't work out, the publisher is more than ready to jump shit and abandon those games (Imperator, EoS). I don't like that and it's tiresome.

HoI suffered from a range of issues (AI, balancing, bugs) but it's main problem was that it was boring because only the skeleton of the game was released. DLCs have been good.
The same thing is probably true for Vicky3. The base game is incredibly shallow, it suffers from bad UI choices and while I like the approach the game took when it comes to armed conflict, I have to say it's implementattion is increbibly boring. If we take it for granted that those games will only be good after X amount of DLCs then what is the point of buying the games in the first place? I don't think it's good practice to milk the fan base of a game for the time being to have a game that continiously attracts people playing it further down the road. If you need financing, crowd fund this thing or whatever. But HoI was painful for the first 2 years (at least), Vicky has been a painful experience for 150 days now and I fear that the next game will be same as well. Also, I am not buying smaller Paradox titles anymore for the fear of them being abandonded before they actually get good. It's a practice that will eventually drive the loyal customer base away.
I totally understand from where you are coming from. There is plenty of valid criticism you can levy at paradox regarding the state of their vanilla games. I've been playing paradox games for a long time, paradox do not make polished games at release for the most part, it's a practice that is getting less and less prevalent throughout the whole industry, especially I have been very critical of the AI on release where they have admitted to only really caring about it at the very end, in my opinion the AI in single player games is the single most important factor if I enjoy a game for longer than it takes to learn it, and I wish that paradox would take longer time to polish those things up before release. Now if the game was as dense with mechanics as HOI or EU4 is now with all their lifecycle DLC it would be very intimidating for new players to learn, I think the strength of paradox DLC approach is it allows players to learn the game piecemeal, the trick is obviously is to not have the vanilla game so bare that nobody cares about the upcoming DLCs anymore which I don't think they have. Paradox still have to deliver quality DLCs, if they release barebones mechanics with some cosmetic then the game will fail in the long run, it's not without risk.

Victoria 3 is a flawed game right now but I think it's quite hyperbolic to call it incredibly shallow given that I've spent a lot of time studying the wiki to understand how pops, industry, politics works and reading a great deal of developer diaries, there is a lot of depth there. Incredibly shallow games doesn't have that complexity. My guess is that some people feel it's shallow because the game is a bit unbalanced as grand strategy games go, it's very tilted towards economy, politics over warfare for example. So depending on each individual preference it can come across as shallow. Or a very underrated reason is that depth isn't necessary because the goals that the game or yourself set out doesn't require in-depth planning. I noticed when I started playing for the harder achievements the game forced me to think strategically about the mechanics in a way deeper way, if you are just playing sandbox mode with the only goal is to become bigger or survive until 1936 then the game can feel very straight forward and you stop thinking about for example about what % of professions are more likely to drift to a certain ideology so I should construct my industries in a certain way and keep certain occupations only in colonies to not influence the political drift I'm that I'm going for. The subtle mechanics of Victoria 3 is in many ways deeper than EU4 or HOI4 but it has less mechanics you are forced to deal with upfront to just go about your business.

Regarding Empire of Sin and Imperator Rome, one big difference compared to Victoria in that they never had much hype to begin with. Victoria was incredibly wanted and I would say that if Rome had been released after Victoria it would have been succesful, in it's current state a very good game but it was just released when people wanted Victoria 3 to be confirmed and people complained that the Pops didn't work as they did in Victoria etc. I tried Empire of Sin on game pass and it's just not that much fun, I'm not really a fan of Xcom style games so i didn't really care, and neither did most people, hence there wasn't much engagement in it. People aren't going to buy a DLC for game they don't care about, if they don't care about the game they don't post and suggest changes. Victoria 3 has a constant generation of suggestions, arguments and expressed wills for how they want the game to improve. Vast majority of reviews is something like that Victoria 3 is an unpolished gem that will undoubtedly improve with time, they wouldn't say that if they thought that the core game was so fundamentally bad it's not redeemable. Instead people are invested in seeing it getting better, and that emotional investment is why i think it's a much more important marker than concurrent player counts right now.
 
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