The Levy

[3Form]

I'll admit I haven't been playing the original CK1 for very long, although now do wish I had taken the plunge with Paradox games when I first heard of them years ago... (I blame TW tbh ^^)
But there's something about the nature of mustering troops which really irks me, and that is that it is instantaneous. It also appears from the teaser trailer that it will be instantaneous in CK2 (at 0:52)

I like how this game reflects the perilous state of the medieval economies, and how Kings really couldn't afford to keep armies in the field for long, and even then it required a combination of dirty tactics such as heavy taxation, confiscation, loans and coinage manipulation. So essentially I think it would add more depth to the game if provincial regiments took time to muster, based upon the size of the regiment, the size of the province and the authority/prestige & loyalty of the local lord.

Take for instance a scenario in CK1. I'm King of Sicily, and one of my vassals has a claim on the throne of Hungary, and decides to declare war. I join in and sit there twiddling my thumbs. A paltry Hungarian force eventually appears and lands in Foggia. I simply click the button and two thousand men suddenly appear and throw the Hungarians back into the sea.
Now, if mustering wasn't instantaneous, the decision about going to war would have been far more important. Can I afford to keep regiments mobilised purely for defense in the event the Hungarians even show up? Perhaps I can risk it, and bet that if they do show up, I can gather my forces before they win a siege?

Apologies if this has been discussed to death already, I did a search which yielded no results!

 

[Xain]

Good point.

 

[Logos88]

Good point.

I'm 100% with you! Was thinking on this just the other day. There should be sometime for you to summon all of your troops depending on the number of baronies, infrastructures in the province like roads, your Marshal skill etc. What would be really nice also is the possibility to summon some troops and send them ahead, like, sending your cavalry for scouting and pillaging, being joined with the infantry and archers later.

 

[Caranorn]

By all accounts feudal armies were able to muster quickly (within a few days for most counties). That was the very purpouse of the original feudal order, quick reaction forces against Vikings, Hungarians and other raiders. It's only as the feudal system declines that levies start taking a longer time to mobilise...

Of course that's for defensive purpouses. Going on the offensive would require some more planning (logistics played a role even back then), but at least for regional campaigns it wouldn't take more than a few weeks (and of course launching the attack at an appropriate time of year (during harvest you'd lose some manpower but even more importantly almost all transportation)). Larger campaigns like Edward I's in Scotland might take as much as a year to set up...

 

[3Form]

By all accounts feudal armies were able to muster quickly (within a few days for most counties). That was the very purpouse of the original feudal order, quick reaction forces against Vikings, Hungarians and other raiders. It's only as the feudal system declines that levies start taking a longer time to mobilise...

Of course that's for defensive purpouses. Going on the offensive would require some more planning (logistics played a role even back then), but at least for regional campaigns it wouldn't take more than a few weeks (and of course launching the attack at an appropriate time of year (during harvest you'd lose some manpower but even more importantly almost all transportation)). Larger campaigns like Edward I's in Scotland might take as much as a year to set up...

That is a fair point. Of course, if the local lord musters the troops, they should muster quicker. But when the Liege is mustering (from afar) it should take longer.

The smallest measurement of time in CK is a day, I'm only asking that it takes longer than that to muster troops. Perhaps between 4 and 10 days, depending on factors such as the size and loyalty of the province.

Also, I'm not entirely sure how mustering from provinces that are under siege should be handled!

 

[unmerged(226921)]

It's a bit cheap, but I think you could model this by allowing vassals to directly aid their liege rather than the liege using their soldiers. If the King/Duke wants, he can ask for personal use of the soldiers, but it'll take longer to muster. While there was an obligation to defend your liege, it's not as if he personally commanded all of his vassals forces as he would in the original CK.

This also would open up very interesting scenarios of an entire vassals force withdrawing from the field in treachery, a fairly common occurrence. I understand this would frustrate the player however, especially if the AI proves to be terrible at directing his own forces.


The Great

 

[3Form]

It's a bit cheap, but I think you could model this by allowing vassals to directly aid their liege rather than the liege using their soldiers. If the King/Duke wants, he can ask for personal use of the soldiers, but it'll take longer to muster. While there was an obligation to defend your liege, it's not as if he personally commanded all of his vassals forces as he would in the original CK.

This is a very nice idea! I've had several frustrating experiences where I would have liked to have taken the opportunity to grab territory off nearby counts who rebelled against the king. Yet as a loyalist, the king has all my regiments in his army. I'd prefer to be able to stay loyal to him by bashing rebels near me, and taking territory for myself in the process! Yet the only way I can get my regiments back from the King is to declare war on him!

It probably is too hard for the AI to handle though. Although I do like it when vassals raise their own regiments to play whack-a-mole whilst my main force is off sieging an enemy castle. In that respect they work quite well in CK1.

 

[Comrade Chaos]

It is already done in other Paradox games...

In EU3: Raised regiments start with 0 org
In V2: conscripted units start with 0 org
In HOI3: Newly deployed units start with 0 org

 

[Logos88]

It is already done in other Paradox games...

In EU3: Raised regiments start with 0 org
In V2: conscripted units start with 0 org
In HOI3: Newly deployed units start with 0 org

Is true what you say, then is plausible to think a similar system will be in CKII. I just hope they make a good adaptation to simulate the Feudal system

 

[Caranorn]

It is already done in other Paradox games...

In EU3: Raised regiments start with 0 org
In V2: conscripted units start with 0 org
In HOI3: Newly deployed units start with 0 org

And that makes no sense for feudal armies. These are not newly raised units, these are units with years of experience working together. They are just dispersed between campaigns...

I think there'd be two slowing factors governing mobilisation speed in the medieval period. 1) The time needed for messenges of invasion to reach a lord and then for his call to arms to return to his vassals (this is not a factor in offense, in offense a date would be set for all contingents to reach a gathering point). 2) The time it takes to concentrate the levies from different locations. Actual mobilisation of a local component takes about a day (the time needed to gather all equipment needed, load carts etc.).

Again, within an invaded county the feudal contingent would be concentrated within a few days and individual groups ready to skirmish from the first hour of contact. In any case no feudal army would start with an allout battle, instead both forces would skirmish, raid and siege...

 

[RedRooster81]

And that makes no sense for feudal armies. These are not newly raised units, these are units with years of experience working together. They are just dispersed between campaigns...

I think there'd be two slowing factors governing mobilisation speed in the medieval period. 1) The time needed for messenges of invasion to reach a lord and then for his call to arms to return to his vassals (this is not a factor in offense, in offense a date would be set for all contingents to reach a gathering point). 2) The time it takes to concentrate the levies from different locations. Actual mobilisation of a local component takes about a day (the time needed to gather all equipment needed, load carts etc.).

Again, within an invaded county the feudal contingent would be concentrated within a few days and individual groups ready to skirmish from the first hour of contact. In any case no feudal army would start with an allout battle, instead both forces would skirmish, raid and siege...

Precisely. These levies should not be treated as green troops as the newly raised EU regiments were, but more like militia that had other occupations when not mobilized but who trained and kept equipment of war in good repair. The medieval nobility was a warrior caste first and foremost, and their right to exploit the land and people bound to it rested on armed service to their lieges.

 

[3Form]

And that makes no sense for feudal armies. These are not newly raised units, these are units with years of experience working together. They are just dispersed between campaigns...

That's true for nobles, their retainers and other men at arms, but there would still be plenty of inexperienced men, especially if conscripted. But that's kind of diverging from the point.

I think there'd be two slowing factors governing mobilisation speed in the medieval period. 1) The time needed for messenges of invasion to reach a lord and then for his call to arms to return to his vassals (this is not a factor in offense, in offense a date would be set for all contingents to reach a gathering point). 2) The time it takes to concentrate the levies from different locations. Actual mobilisation of a local component takes about a day (the time needed to gather all equipment needed, load carts etc.).

The French army ~1340 was expected to take up to two months to muster, but I'd hazard the largest part of that would be travel time to the muster point. So the time taken to muster for an offensive campaign is already modelled in CK1 by the travel time from province to province.

What I take specific issue with is that I can pause the game, click on a province, then instantly have a regiment appear ready for action.
If I, the King, am telling a vassal to muster his troops in a far away province, then it would take about 2-3 days for the actual forces to assemble, but many more days for my messengers to reach the province and visit the large population centres to give summons. With respect to this, it could take many days to travel in the middle ages, what with roads being as they were.
If my vassal is mustering his troops personally however, it should be much quicker, since he only needs to send summons from his castle to the population centres! Say, muster time + 1 day!

Or perhaps the regiments could appear immediately, but then slowly fill up over the course of several days, depending on who summoned them.

I suppose longer muster times would require vassal AI to be effective at summoning troops for defensive purposes. But I think it's important as we play a "character" in this game, not an omnipresent spirit!

 

[unmerged(75409)]

What I take specific issue with is that I can pause the game, click on a province, then instantly have a regiment appear ready for action.
If I, the King, am telling a vassal to muster his troops in a far away province, then it would take about 2-3 days for the actual forces to assemble, but many more days for my messengers to reach the province and visit the large population centres to give summons. With respect to this, it could take many days to travel in the middle ages, what with roads being as they were.
If my vassal is mustering his troops personally however, it should be much quicker, since he only needs to send summons from his castle to the population centres! Say, muster time + 1 day!

Yes your messanger would need some days. But on the other hand, if there's an invasion fleet, the local lords will know of it BEFORE you do and already mobilize on his own. By the time you see them on the map, your vassal might already be at the beaches with his men-at-arms.

None of the paradox games simulated communication delays because it would be difficult as hell to make it work AND be fun.

 

[RedRooster81]

I see your point. Now, the player character will have a specific location, so this opens up some possibilities. Well, let's take what happens in CK1. I am the King of France, and my vassal the Duke of Sardinia is under attack from the Kingdom of Zirid. No problem. I just mobilize my vassals' armies in Montpellier, Narbonne, and Rosello just as quick as a thought, and they make their way to Sardinia.

In reality, well that would be a different prospect entirely. The Count of Toulouse is not all that friendly with his King, for one, and neither are his sundry relations who rule over Montpellier, Narbonne, and Rosello. And just how long does it take a piece of paper to go from Paris to Montpellier? I'm sure that it is more than a few seconds, then getting these counts and their barons, and their knights to collect at Montpellier, wait for ships to arrive to transport them to Sardinia, etc.... Now, for the purposes of the game, we should judge how much we want to balance the reality of politics and logistics with having an enjoyable experience. So my two cents.