The Ledger is too powerful and weakens the whole point of Espionage

[balmung60]

ledger should have no information about forcelimits, current number of soldiers, ships ,manpower or income. the first time i came across ledger i couldnt believe what i was seeing

Why? Other than current army size and fleet size (which can be estimated by the force ratios when selecting rivals, and I'm pretty sure that fleet size and army size are actually pretty hard to hide), these are all derived figures. If I wanted to know a country's income without the ledger, all I need to do is add up the income of their provinces + how much they're collecting from trade (all easily available on the map), and all I'd miss are a few negligible sources (tariffs, war reparations, and vassal income, though I could also work out vassal income through doing much the same to their vassals and multiplying by the vassal income multiplier).

Forcelimits? Straightforward function of base tax, buildings, and subjects, modified by ideas. Again, easy, if time-consuming to derive from available information.

Manpower? Straightforward function of base manpower, buildings, and ideas. Another one that's really not that hard to work out. You might be able to make a case for current manpower, but the AI uses so many mercenaries that it never seems terribly constrained by the limitations of its manpower (which it often runs completely dry).

Anything that can be determined directly from a nation's provinces, subjects, and ideas shouldn't be hidden, because then all you're doing is making players break out a calculator to get the same information as before. Obfuscating the information is just bad design.

 

[FrankFore20]

The AI checks your army size (amongst other things) before declaring war. Why should this be invisible to the player?

This

 

[Mikalos]

Well, in SP you have the ability to not use it yourself. In MP it can be disabled. This honestly sounds more like an issue with people lacking self-restraint, honestly.

Anyways, if espionage had some sort of assassinate mechanic tied to it, it'd be a lot more useful.

so people complaining that the ledger invalidates the need for espionage need to shut up cause its ok?

 

[zdlugasz]

I love how some people can't stop themselves from cheating and come to the forums asking the devs for making a mechanic to stop them from cheating...

IMO it is similar to the demand to introduce Ironman mode. I think that people have right to ask for it.
Anyway I agree with most of points:
- ledger is overpowered, limits might be OK, but current values could/should be obscured
- espionage should be more meaningful

 

[pingouin2ter]

Some posters refer to looking at the ledger as a cheating mechanic which I agree with. However, forcing yourself not look at it does not solve anything as the other ways to gather information about other countries are lacking.

 

[Freudia]

so people complaining that the ledger invalidates the need for espionage need to shut up cause its ok?

If the AI didn't have magic knowledge about your nation, its armies, navies, and the necessary manpower/strength of each without espionage, you would have a point.

Also honestly I'd probably just not take espionage even if the ledger didn't have any of this information. Espionage is just that bad in SP, and in MP espionage's strength lies in fog of war removal, something the ledger doesn't do.

 

[Mikalos]

If the AI didn't have magic knowledge about your nation, its armies, navies, and the necessary manpower/strength of each without espionage, you would have a point.

Also honestly I'd probably just not take espionage even if the ledger didn't have any of this information. Espionage is just that bad in SP, and in MP espionage's strength lies in fog of war removal, something the ledger doesn't do.

so people complaining that the ledger invalidates the need for espionage need to shut up cause its ok?

 

[Hakuromatsu]

IMO the problem has more to do with the omniscience of the ledger than the badness of Espionage -- I don't see what the OP recommends as a fix for Espionage so much as a fix for EUIV.

It also doesn't have to do with self-restraint. I would love to be able to crack open the ledger and just see a red "Low" for France's manpower when I'm deciding whether to DOW them. Does that mean <1,000 MP, or enough MP to refill their main stack after the first major battle? It would add a good sort of uncertainty to the game.

 

[Freudia]

so people complaining that the ledger invalidates the need for espionage need to shut up cause its ok?

Okay, since you're being persistent about this, yes. They do. The problem with espionage is not that the ledger exists in its current form. Even if the ledger didn't exist, espionage would still be a bad pick in SP, and in MP it would be picked for something that the hypothetical doesn't-exist-ledger doesn't provide anyways.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

Okay, since you're being persistent about this, yes. They do. The problem with espionage is not that the ledger exists in its current form. Even if the ledger didn't exist, espionage would still be a bad pick in SP, and in MP it would be picked for something that the hypothetical doesn't-exist-ledger doesn't provide anyways.

Yeah.

Espionage needs tangible benefits to be viable in SP. Ruler assassination plots, rebel support that can be used on its own instead of just as a supplement, whatever.

 

[Ricox]

Well, if I was given the option to disable ledger in SP and unlock the ability with Espionage idea group, I would use that option. I don't have such self control as I'm just playing for fun, but it's easier to follow it if it's a game mechanic easily enabled or already on by default.

It would also make Espionage useful. It's still useless... (compared to all the other way better idea groups)

 

[lizardo]

The diplomatic system should be reworked so that a 'leader' is assigned a country, and over time he learns more about it. Then your diplomacy is limited to how many leaders you can keep on the payroll.

They should be given tasks that are accomplished over time rather than having 'fire and cool down'.

Have to say that I do use the ledger quite extensively for war. never leave home without it.

 

[FreeSoc]

so people complaining that the ledger invalidates the need for espionage need to shut up cause its ok?

Basically, yes. Make Espionage a better idea group, rather than removing the foreign section of the ledger from the game because it's somehow "cheating", even though you're just counteracting the AI's magical, Espionage-free knowledge of everything about your nation. Or just don't use the ledger if you don't like it. But don't insist on removing the ledger when something else is not up to scratch, because it's far more beneficial to improve the substandard thing than remove choice.

 

[Hakuromatsu]

Basically, yes. Make Espionage a better idea group, rather than removing the foreign section of the ledger from the game because it's somehow "cheating", even though you're just counteracting the AI's magical, Espionage-free knowledge of everything about your nation. Or just don't use the ledger if you don't like it. But don't insist on removing the ledger when something else is not up to scratch, because it's far more beneficial to improve the substandard thing than remove choice.

What basis is there for a country knowing its enemies' military potential to the same degree of precision & accuracy that it knows its own? It's bad history and weird gameplay. Cheating and self-restraint don't need to factor into it.

 

[Freudia]

What basis is there for a country knowing its enemies' military potential to the same degree of precision & accuracy that it knows its own? It's bad history and weird gameplay. Cheating and self-restraint don't need to factor into it.

What basis is there for a lot of this game's mechanics? Do not pick and choose where you want to apply your history argument unless you want to apply it as a whole, in which case there's much bigger things to complain about than the ledger.

 

[Mikalos]

What basis is there for a country knowing its enemies' military potential to the same degree of precision & accuracy that it knows its own? It's bad history and weird gameplay. Cheating and self-restraint don't need to factor into it.

i forgot when mana from heaven came to nations from 1444 - 1821 and all feudal conflict ceased on november 11th, 1444

 

[Hakuromatsu]

I have no idea what either of you are arguing :sleep:

 

[FreeSoc]

What basis is there for a country knowing its enemies' military potential to the same degree of precision & accuracy that it knows its own? It's bad history and weird gameplay. Cheating and self-restraint don't need to factor into it.

Well of course it's not historically accurate, or even historically plausible, but in a situation where the AI knows everything about your manpower, forcelimits, armies and so on, and needs to do so because otherwise it would (I imagine) take a huge amount of coding to stop it just declaring idiotic wars, it makes little sense to deprive players of the same information purely because one idea group isn't good enough as-is. In a game in which there are bizarre shoehorns like the Burgundian Inheritance, and some historical empires which it's basically impossible to live up to (Spain's colonial empire), the fact that the ledger gives lots of information about other countries is not really an issue to my eyes, much as it is obviously not historically accurate to know Yaroslavl's precise army size as Utrecht in 1444.

 

[Thanik]

I love how some people can't stop themselves from cheating and come to the forums asking the devs for making a mechanic to stop them from cheating...

This.
Next thread "don't allow human to micro with armies, becouse it is OP"

 

[oblio-]

Funnily enough, shouldn't Ironman mode have lock the ledger?