The Large Fleet Collider - 2.0 Fleet Balance

[Acidpunk]

I'll repost what i posted in the other thead here :

Here is some additional context :

Total cost Mono Torpedo Corvette Fleet :
58500

Design :

Total cost Mixed Corvette / Destroyer / Cruiser ( Ratio equal to naval cap ) :
53385

Designs :

-

The result of the battle :

Mineral costs :

Mono Torpedo Corvette Fleet loss :
23400

Mixed Fleet loss :
17642

So yeah I didn't do the best designs or ratio's on the mixed yet it handily beats corvettes consistently, maybe i should make a thread with more of the tests i've done because people really confuse me here.

And before anyone jumps and assumes I ran tests once :

Mixed loss
17975
Mono loss
22100

No matter what happens the mixed fleet wins in 99% of cases

*

Mixed loss
12525
Mono loss
18525

*

Mixed loss
16450
Mono loss
21125

TLDR Mixed Fleets of Cruisers, Destroyers and Corvettes cream Mono Torpedo fleets .

 

[Geriander]

I'll repost what i posted in the other thead here :

Here is some additional context :

Total cost Mono Torpedo Corvette Fleet :
58500

Design :

Total cost Mixed Corvette / Destroyer / Cruiser ( Ratio equal to naval cap ) :
53385

Designs :

-

The result of the battle :

Mineral costs :

Mono Torpedo Corvette Fleet loss :
23400

Mixed Fleet loss :
17642

So yeah I didn't do the best designs or ratio's on the mixed yet it handily beats corvettes consistently, maybe i should make a thread with more of the tests i've done because people really confuse me here.

And before anyone jumps and assumes I ran tests once :

Mixed loss
17975
Mono loss
22100

No matter what happens the mixed fleet wins in 99% of cases

*

Mixed loss
12525
Mono loss
18525

*

Mixed loss
16450
Mono loss
21125

TLDR Mixed Fleets of Cruisers, Destroyers and Corvettes cream Mono Torpedo fleets .

Isn’t the A unit you use for destroyers and cruisers broken? Previously in this thread there are those who said that it does nothing. If so the advantage of the mixed fleet can be improved.

 

[GloatingSwine]

The real questions is can that mixed fleet beat anything else.

If you can build a hardcounter to torpedo corvettes that loses to everything else it's uselessly overspecialised.

 

[f98alda]

The real questions is can that mixed fleet beat anything else.

If you can build a hardcounter to torpedo corvettes that loses to everything else it's uselessly overspecialised.

Not necessarily. It means it is possible to relatively quickly tune a mixed fleet to kill a corvette torpedo fleet, which makes the torpedo corvette fleet much less viable. At least, provided it is also possible to tune the mixed fleet to do OK against other stuff as well. That would make fleet composition and design actually matter, which is what we want (no one design wins over everything).

 

[Acidpunk]

Isn’t the A unit you use for destroyers and cruisers broken? Previously in this thread there are those who said that it does nothing. If so the advantage of the mixed fleet can be improved.

I'm not 100% sure, and I never claimed it was the perfect ratio or fleet setup just a mixed fleet I threw together like I would in a realistic scenario. But I would like to know for sure myself.

The real questions is can that mixed fleet beat anything else.

If you can build a hardcounter to torpedo corvettes that loses to everything else it's uselessly overspecialised.

Except it's not a hard counter fleet in the slightest, it's actually still got a full medium weapon Cruiser sitting on it that can be useful against destroyers and other cruisers, not to mention if i had wanted to go full anti corvette you think I wouldn't have upped the ratio of Destroyers ?

Not necessarily. It means it is possible to relatively quickly tune a mixed fleet to kill a corvette torpedo fleet, which makes the torpedo corvette fleet much less viable. At least, provided it is also possible to tune the mixed fleet to do OK against other stuff as well. That would make fleet composition and design actually matter, which is what we want (no one design wins over everything).

That's the point I've kept making to people for weeks, Mono Corvette fleets are very inflexible and limited in what they can actually do. Vs any player that has even half a brain they can throw a mixed fleet together and wipe the floor with you in a protracted war and could have probably specialised it even harder to win even better.

The mixed fleet can be retooled effectively to fight all threats reasonably where as the mono corvette cannot.

 

[Kruskin]

I've come back to this thread once in a while, and there is some really great info and discussion. Some of it is contrary, and it's really hard to keep track. Anyone able to condense the info into one location, ideally edited into the original post?

As a new player, my other question is what is the idea (whether broken/imbalanced) of all these different weapons and ships and range? Combat is really unclear and as I understand it some stuff like hangars are broken, or pd has been/is, etc. I feel aimless when designing my fleets.

 

[Acidpunk]

I've come back to this thread once in a while, and there is some really great info and discussion. Some of it is contrary, and it's really hard to keep track. Anyone able to condense the info into one location, ideally edited into the original post?

As a new player, my other question is what is the idea (whether broken/imbalanced) of all these different weapons and ships and range? Combat is really unclear and as I understand it some stuff like hangars are broken, or pd has been/is, etc. I feel aimless when designing my fleets.

I'll get around to making a mega thread at some point with all my testing done properly, but we're talking pages and pages of content so i'm not sure if people wanna read that.

 

[Kruskin]

Why not include a summary at the top where you distill and condense the important info to take away from said testing?

 

[Acidpunk]

Because any summary will be read dismissed and then the meat of the post ignored, such is the internet.

I'd rather have the summary at the end so people are forced to look at the evidence.

 

[Eagle177]

After doing some reading of the past pages on the thread. I have a question: Are we to a point of having some dominate fleet designs? Sounds like a CV missile based with 2 setups with shields or all armor. Then an All BB with KA + Neutron lunchers. (These are mainly late game setups).
1.) With these in place, could there be a thread on strategies with the galaxy map? Starbases in chokepoints only or only in planetary systems. Fleets hiding in a nebula and popping out all of the sudden? ( I have not played any MP, so I don't know if any of these could be successful)
2.) What about fleets against citadels? Are they defending or just slowing ships down?
3.) There seems to be some balance to what we have in ship designs. They can be countered, some may need a few hours of work, but they can be defeated.

 

[Fa1nan]

I think there is a bit of confusion at work here. First of all, the reason monofleets are considered to be best is because they have consistently proven themselves to be the most efficient setups. This does not mean that a given monofleet cannot be beaten by a dedicated mixed fleet, it just means that some dedicated monofleet will accomplish this task even more effiently. This is tied to how the targeting behaviour in combat works. I'm relatively certain that a monofleet of destroyers is going to outperform Acidpunk's mixed fleet in dispatching a monofleet of corvettes and I'd like to see a test comparing them. But this is nothing new on 2.0.2. We already know that a missile corvette fleet wrecks everything except (since 2.0.2) PD destroyer fleets - Acidpunk's mixed fleet is just that with unnecessary corvettes and cruisers thrown in - and that such a destroyer fleet (and everything but the missile corvettes) will lose against BB monofleets, which also happen to be most efficient against FE and crises. It's just that MP apparently hasn't quite caught up yet and is still stuck at "torpvetts roll everything".

You can tell this more or less from the history of this thread. It starts out with tests against fleet setups that the AI uses which torpedo corvettes appear to perform best against. This doesn't actually say much because the AI designs are utter garbage, yet they then go on to win against whatever designs the testers came up with; even against mono BB fleets which have been meta in previous patches aside from the naked corvette swarm one. What really got the torpvette thing rolling though is that PD destroyers which are supposed to counter torpvettes could break even at best. This changed in 2.0.2 with the buff to PD and the nerf to torpedos, however missile corvettes still win against everything that isn't loaded with PD to counter them. That's why the SP meta is to build missile corvettes until BBs are available; missile corvettes still fare best against whatever the AI builds because it won't build counters and you want the BBs for FE and crises. MP is different in that people can build PD destroyers to counter missile corvettes if they are aware of the current balance, though PD destroyers are rather bad against anything else so you still want corvettes around. That's at least my current understanding of the situation and I'm looking forward to reading about Acidpunk's extensive test series.

 

[Acidpunk]

I think there is a bit of confusion at work here. First of all, the reason monofleets are considered to be best is because they have consistently proven themselves to be the most efficient setups. This does not mean that a given monofleet cannot be beaten by a dedicated mixed fleet, it just means that some dedicated monofleet will accomplish this task even more effiently. This is tied to how the targeting behaviour in combat works. I'm relatively certain that a monofleet of destroyers is going to outperform Acidpunk's mixed fleet in dispatching a monofleet of corvettes and I'd like to see a test comparing them. But this is nothing new on 2.0.2. We already know that a missile corvette fleet wrecks everything except (since 2.0.2) PD destroyer fleets - Acidpunk's mixed fleet is just that with unnecessary corvettes and cruisers thrown in - and that such a destroyer fleet (and everything but the missile corvettes) will lose against BB monofleets, which also happen to be most efficient against FE and crises. It's just that MP apparently hasn't quite caught up yet and is still stuck at "torpvetts roll everything".

You can tell this more or less from the history of this thread. It starts out with tests against fleet setups that the AI uses which torpedo corvettes appear to perform best against. This doesn't actually say much because the AI designs are utter garbage, yet they then go on to win against whatever designs the testers came up with; even against mono BB fleets which have been meta in previous patches aside from the naked corvette swarm one. What really got the torpvette thing rolling though is that PD destroyers which are supposed to counter torpvettes could break even at best. This changed in 2.0.2 with the buff to PD and the nerf to torpedos, however missile corvettes still win against everything that isn't loaded with PD to counter them. That's why the SP meta is to build missile corvettes until BBs are available; missile corvettes still fare best against whatever the AI builds because it won't build counters and you want the BBs for FE and crises. MP is different in that people can build PD destroyers to counter missile corvettes if they are aware of the current balance, though PD destroyers are rather bad against anything else so you still want corvettes around. That's at least my current understanding of the situation and I'm looking forward to reading about Acidpunk's extensive test series.

*Before I write anything let me preface that Battleships are not included in any of my stuff for the moment, they are a separate balance issue entirely thanks to NL

Yeah I'm not saying a mono destroyer fleet wouldn't beat the mono corvette fleet harder ( Usually 2:1 ratio ) the mineral costs end up being something like this so it's not actually THAT more efficient for the inflexibility :

(DD = Destroyer )
CC = Corvette )

First Test
DD Loss : 16575 Minerals
CC Loss : 9,709 Minerals

Second Test
DD Loss : 13286 Minerals
CC Loss : 20150 Minerals

Third Test
DD Loss : 8687 ( 17 lost )
CC Loss : 15600 Minerals

However that mono destroyer fleet also loses to the mixed fleet, so in an ideal non realistic test sure the mono fleet is more efficient but as i've stated multiple times around is that having a mono fleet on the offensive in this game leaves you very open to hard counters. Where as having a balanced approach means that if you are on the offensive there is no easy way fix to solve the issue.

Once I've sat down and finished all of my testing which there's an absurd amount to do, the goal will be to come up with a mixed fleet that basically can beat any of the three classes of mono fleets well enough that it's superior enough in mineral cost to any of the other options that there is no better option than a mixed fleet finally ending the usefulness of monofleets before battleships.

--------

Just gonna take some time to get it all done, way too many combinations.

 

[Vilcoyote]

Speaking about monofleet, you can just make 2 fleets with a different hull (one of corvette, the other of Destroyers for example) and combining them before entering combat.
I tend to prefer doing that for logistical and pratical reason.

 

[Acidpunk]

Speaking about monofleet, you can just make 2 fleets with a different hull (one of corvette, the other of Destroyers for example) and combining them before entering combat.
I tend to prefer doing that for logistical and pratical reason.

and if you're only fighting on one single front sure, however what ends up happening to me in games is that i'm covering much larger distances for battle and 1 doom stack is useless to me.

 

[Eagle177]

Acidpunk - Well I thought I did can't find it again..... I did find a bit of an upgrade to your mixed fleet. It has the ratios of 32 CV 32 DD 13 Cruisers 2 BB. (the BB's are KA + Neutrons.) Everything was the same with the setup, it packs a little more of a punch, yet still has enough PD to last. I found out that having exactly the same number of flak PD is ok (for a while I thought that have 2x PD per G slot to counter. that was, using energy PD (What are they even good for?)). UGH- I can't find what I did to get 2 BB's with the 150 navy cap. But I went out after the KA + M Plasma DD mono fleet and won. Happy testing.