The Large Fleet Collider - 2.0 Fleet Balance

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yski2moreletters

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"attackallfleets" saves you the trouble of setting up another empire.
I vaguely remember that breaking something about the reports the last time I tried, but that was a long time ago so I'm not even sure if I remember correctly at this point. Would save some time though.

A few more handy commands:
skills x - gives all of your leaders x levels.
minerals x - gives you x minerals.
energy x - gives you x energy.
influence x - gives you x influence.
unity x - gives you x unity.

New to the thread, can someone just please tell me it is ok to use carriers vs the AI??! That´s all I want to know =D (even if you are lying)
Carriers seem a bit weak this version. You can use them for role play purposes, but they are not the optimal choice at the moment.
 

GloatingSwine

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Does the use of Swarm missiles do anything to improve the effectiveness of torpedo corvettes against PD heavy fleets? Has anyone tried mixing them in to see if effectiveness increases?

Point defence is catastrophically underpowered at the moment.

A fleet of 80 destroyers with tier 3 point defence and 2x Stormfires were only capable of consistently defeating equal cap of corvettes with 1x Stormfire and tier 2 or lower missile weapons. Tier 3 missiles or Tier 2 torpedoes and above and the PD was just not able to stop the missiles.

So no, swarm missiles are just not worth the bother.
 

Drakonn

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If one did play with mixed fleets (i enjoy it regardless of most optimal) then what's stopping Cruisers from targetting DD, then CVs, after they get rid of the enemy cruisers instead of targeting the BBs? (which lets the BBs sit there unharmed the whole time) if one doesn't have their own BBs).

It seems like with what's happening it makes building ships that are optimized against ships not their class pointless. I could easily run two different corvette loadouts in a fleet (one for corvettes, one for Crusiers on up) but then they wouldn't target the heavier ships until all the corvettes were actually down?

(I'm having trouble wrapping my head around how this is supposed to work in mixed fleet battles when one doesn't have all of the same classes the opponent does or builds a loadout for a ship to fight not it's class.)
 

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Kind of makes me wish point defense was reworked as an integrated accessory slot so we can stop this back and forth over PD shutting down missiles entirely or being an ineffective waste of weapon slots.
 

Homer2101

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New to the thread, can someone just please tell me it is ok to use carriers vs the AI??! That´s all I want to know =D (even if you are lying)
CV should be fine against any similar-strength regular AI fleet. Point defense is at the moment is quite weak against mass attack, and in general is a bloody stupid notion for a strategy game because it's either powerful enough to hard counter missiles or effectively worthless.

Against fallen empires, I would strongly advise emitters and cloud lightning, because it bypasses all of the HP those fleets have stored in armor and shields.
 

vonriel

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I knew about most of the console commands from my brief search last night. I was really hoping perhaps for a mod, or some command I hadn't run into, that would make spawning fleets to smash into each other a bit less of a hassle than 'build, smash, build, smash'. Also, mentions have been made of spawning in Fallen Empire fleets, which, alongside crisis fleets, are something else I'd like to test fleets against. No such luck, then? Regardless, thanks for the help thus far.

So on to my first rounds of testing. Pitted mono corvette against mono corvette and mono destroyer, then got bored. Each fleet had about 30.5k minerals to blow on ships. My ship loadouts were probably far from ideal, but, from what I'm seeing, destroyers with point defenses absolutely destroy torpedo corvettes. The torpedo corvettes also lost to a missile corvette loadout, though these defeats were nowhere near as dramatic.

A recap of my tests:
The corvettes had either a devastator torpedo or a marauder missile and a stormfire autocannon. The destroyers were running 3 guardian point defense, one stormfire autocannon, and one gamma laser. The corvettes were already at about 88% evasion as a result of the new tier 5 thrusters with tier 2 afterburners, so I didn't run swarm computers on them, as all the extra evasion would have been largely worthless and picket computers have better fire rate boosts. This may or may not have changed things, as I don't know how behavior affects combat.

I admit that I was being lazy even further, and didn't rebuild each fleet from 0 experience, but there's no way a random assortment of 10% bonus weapon damage on each side should make such a dramatic difference: After 5 tests, the destroyers beat the torpedo corvettes each time, killing an average of 27 ships and losing an average of 7 ships in each trial. The surviving corvettes were left on average with 27.5% hull remaining, while the surviving destroyers had on average 83.2% hull remaining. Between each round, I repaired and reinforced each fleet to full.

For fun, I then smashed the pd destroyer fleet into the torpedo corvette fleet until the destroyers lost. In round 1, 3 destroyers died to kill 29 corvettes (not that dramatic an outlier; in the third test above, 4 destroyers and 27 corvettes in total were lost). In round two, with the torpedo corvette fleet repaired and reinforced to full, the destroyers killed 19 corvettes but lost 13 destroyers. In round three, after fully repairing and reinforcing a second time, the torpedo corvettes finally managed to force the destroyers to retreat, killing 25 destroyers and losing only 3 corvettes.

The missile corvettes forced the torpedo corvettes to retreat in each of the 5 trials, as well. Unlike the destroyers, not only were the kill counts of each side closer - 39 average torpedo corvette kills per round versus 43 average missile corvette kills per round - but there was a lot more variance in the actual kill numbers, for both sides. What missile corvettes did survive lived with most of their hull intact, at an average of 74.4% hull for the missiles versus 21% for the torpedoes, so an immediate followup encounter should have favored the missile corvettes.

I only paired the missile corvettes against the pd destroyers once, but the results were closer, and as a result more interesting. The destroyers still won, but, despite taking fewer relative losses - 25% destroyed destroyers versus 36% destroyed corvettes - the surviving destroyers were pretty battered. Half the survivors had been forced to disengage, and so had no armor and less than 50% hull.

An honorable mention should be made of the very first test I did, a pd/laser/autocannon corvette build, that got utterly annihilated by the torpedo corvette fleet. To the point that it wasn't even worth testing again, only something like 10% of the original pd corvettes lived this one.

The tl;dr of this is, at a 1.9:1 ratio of point defense:torpedoes, point defense actually do overwhelm the torpedoes and win in the current 2.0.2 beta build, but at 1:1 the point defenses get utterly overwhelmed and the effect results in a snowball in favor of the torpedo corvettes. Missiles fare better than torpedoes in both cases, but it was still fairly even against torpedoes and still a losing fight against the destroyers.
 

Torakka

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I knew about most of the console commands from my brief search last night. I was really hoping perhaps for a mod, or some command I hadn't run into, that would make spawning fleets to smash into each other a bit less of a hassle than 'build, smash, build, smash'. Also, mentions have been made of spawning in Fallen Empire fleets, which, alongside crisis fleets, are something else I'd like to test fleets against. No such luck, then? Regardless, thanks for the help thus far.
Here's a updated-to-2.0 version of my tiny mod that let's you spawn mixed Fallen Empire fleet (for your own empire, so it lacks the usual bonuses FEs get). Just type "event fleet_test.1" into the console. It currently spawn 3 battlecuisers and 9 escorts of each non-machine-FE type and one xenophile titan (for 1x32 + 12x8 + 36x2 = 200 fleet command capacity). Rather easy to mod those ship counts though.
 

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Gecc

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A thought I just had is making me wonder if the combat computer has an effect on point defence. Picket says The Ship will advance to close range and attempt to intercept enemy ships and missiles. Any idea if it has an effect or is it just the tracking % on the computer?
 

Fa1nan

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After a bunch more tests I am now confident to declare a certain design "the best" against FEs in 2.0. But first a few general observations regarding fleet design:
  • Cruisers, and to some extend destroyers, seem to be trash. Cruisers have no particular thing going for them; everything you can do with cruisers you can replicate on the other hulls and BBs seem to work best with every particular design aside from missiles (because they cannot mount them); here corvettes take the cake. For destroyers the same holds, just not as bad. They can at least hold their ground against FE fleets which cruisers simply can't. The only saving grace of destroyers is the fact that they apparently are pretty decent at taking out corvette swarms according to this thread. But so are other corvette swarms. Thus, based on what I've read so far from others in conjuction with my tests specifically against FEs, I conclude that the best course of action is to spam corvettes until you unlock BB tech, then organize your ships into corvette swarms serving as rapid response strike forces and main fleets consisting of BBs and maybe Titans as moral support.
  • 2.0 gutted strike craft.
  • Whirlwind missiles are strictly worse than regular missiles and torpedos even in the presence of reasonable PD, whereas regular missiles and torpedos do not seem to differ much against FEs.
  • The ratio of armor, shield and hull does matter and should definitely be adjusted according to the opponent.
Getting on then, the best loadouts against FEs use weapons that damage hull directly, that is, Disruptors, Cloud Lightning and Arc Emitters. As outlined in a previous post of mine in this thread , these weapons offer the best kill-death-ratio within the test setting and this ratio is going to be even better compared to other loadouts in an actual game as FE/AE fleets have larger modifiers on shield and armor than they have on hull.

It doesn't really matter how one actually distributes these weapons over the battleships (there are not many choices anyway) as long as Arc Emitters are being used. Despite strike craft being rather bad in 2.0, using the middle section with 4 m-slots and one hangar bay is neither signifcantly better nor worse than using four Cloud Lightning. My personal favorite is AB-4D2V (slightly overhauled notation; briefly explained in the attached excel file together with all test results), that is, 2 Cloud Lightning and 4 Disruptors.
A24A_AB_4D2V.png
The weapons are very synergetic; the first volley of Arc Emitter fire takes out the first line of incoming Escorts, the survivors are then met with the Disruptors in close range, whereas Cloud Lightning and further Arc Emitter volleys take care of the Battlecruisers. Aside from looking nice, this causes the combat to be rather brief.

On the defensive side one should definitely adjust to the enemy FE. Xenophiles and Xenophobes are best met with more armor than shields (~ 2 shield slots, 4 armor slots) and Materalists and Machines should be met with more shields than armor (4/2 split for Materialist and 5/1 for Machines). Spiritualists are interesting because they use Plasma and stuff that penetrates shields, as such the best defense against them is to stack hull. If no crystal plating is available, one should apparently use 5 shield and one armor slot to at least block the Plasma. Note here that I only tested shield/armor ratios and the full six plating setup, as such there may be sweet spots where swapping in one crystal plating or so is better. Interestingly, even when met with the respective best defense, Xenophobes and Xenophiles are the easiest, Materialists and Machines the hardest to beat.

For the combat computer use Artillery. The accuracy from the Line computer should not affect Disruptors and Cloud Lightning because they already have 100% accuracy and once the range buff actually works, Artillery will be strictly better.

I did not do any tests for the auxiliary slots: The high shield setups require the use of reactor boosters and the downgrading of components when tier 5 power is used and I doubt that the armor focused setups benefit that much from capacitors. Since Aux. Fire Controls just like Line computers do not add anything to the design, the choice comes down to Decoders and Afterburners and I think one wants Afterburners simply for the sublight speed then, especially considering that a single Decoder will only add 5 tracking.

A small caveat regarding the attached test results: All tests where conducted on 2.0.1 which means that the evasion numbers of the BBs are inflated. Though I doubt that it changes the overall picture.

This setup is most likely optimal against the Contingency as well since their loadouts are similar to FE fleets. Against the other crises it would be interesting to test whether loadouts exploiting the shield or armor focus of the Unbidden respectively Scourge outperform direct hull damage.

Lastly, I attached my own version of the Doomfleet event. With fleet_test.0 one can generate a proper doomfleet with five titans, 150 BBs and 300 Escorts distributed evenly over the FE types. Higher numbers (1-5) will spawn single FE fleets of 1 Titan, 30 BBs and 60 Escorts. The mod also includes an altered defines.txt making the command limit irrelevant; though I had to actually replace the defines in the game files to make it work.

... now on to actually playing the game.
 

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Jeffry

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Cruisers, and to some extend destroyers, seem to be trash. Cruisers have no particular thing going for them; everything you can do with cruisers you can replicate on the other hulls and BBs seem to work best with every particular design aside from missiles (because they cannot mount them); here corvettes take the cake. For destroyers the same holds, just not as bad. They can at least hold their ground against FE fleets which cruisers simply can't. The only saving grace of destroyers is the fact that they apparently are pretty decent at taking out corvette swarms according to this thread. But so are other corvette swarms.

What about Picket Destroyers, mostly against enemy strike crafts? Is no form of PD worth it even when the enemy relies heavily on carriers and/or missiles? Or just bring more long-range guns (for example Tachyon/Giga/KA/Neutron BBs) and shoot him down sooner than his bombers can reach you?

If in some cases PD was worth it, what would in your opinion the ideal ship for that role be? In my game against the Machine FE i used Destroyers with 1 KA, Flak and PD each with Picket computer and Afterburners. My reasoning was that if I slap a KA on them, they will still contribute a bit besides shooting down bombers. Can't really say if they helped or not, because by the time I attacked the FE they were already inferior in comparison.
 

moyang

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About defensive setup against xenophobe FE. Looks like 1 titan makes real difference, because they have no energy weapon in their Battlecruisers/Escorts. If titan wasn't there all 6 armor would be better, right?
 

Fa1nan

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What about Picket Destroyers, mostly against enemy strike crafts? Is no form of PD worth it even when the enemy relies heavily on carriers and/or missiles? Or just bring more long-range guns (for example Tachyon/Giga/KA/Neutron BBs) and shoot him down sooner than his bombers can reach you?
Not having tested this claim in 2.0, but from tests in 1.9 I concluded that sacrificing damage for PD against FE/AE is never worth it because you'd only counter a fraction of their damage. Against Spiritualists there may be a sweet spot with a bit of PD, but against the other types definitively not, especially since strike craft aren't that potent this patch. PD starts to be worth it when the entire enemy damage output can be countered by it, i.e., against Scourge.

If in some cases PD was worth it, what would in your opinion the ideal ship for that role be? In my game against the Machine FE i used Destroyers with 1 KA, Flak and PD each with Picket computer and Afterburners. My reasoning was that if I slap a KA on them, they will still contribute a bit besides shooting down bombers. Can't really say if they helped or not, because by the time I attacked the FE they were already inferior in comparison.
Refit a portion of your corvettes. The point I was trying to make in the statement you quoted is that there is no reason to build PD destroyers when you can simply refit into PD corvettes. Sure, destroyers can achieve higher tracking but torps have no evasion, missile evasion is relatively low and Whirlwind missiles' damage is too low. Cruisers and destroyers do not really fill any niche right now; everything they do can be achieved more efficiently by using corvettes and BBs.
About defensive setup against xenophobe FE. Looks like 1 titan makes real difference, because they have no energy weapon in their Battlecruisers/Escorts. If titan wasn't there all 6 armor would be better, right?
You still want at least one shield to screw with targeting.
 

GloatingSwine

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Refit a portion of your corvettes. The point I was trying to make in the statement you quoted is that there is no reason to build PD destroyers when you can simply refit into PD corvettes. Sure, destroyers can achieve higher tracking but torps have no evasion, missile evasion is relatively low and Whirlwind missiles' damage is too low. Cruisers and destroyers do not really fill any niche right now; everything they do can be achieved more efficiently by using corvettes and BBs.

Destroyers don't even get higher tracking any more.

Plus, frankly, just ram even more devastator torpedoes down their throat. Gets 'em every time.
 

Saori

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Destroyers don't even get higher tracking any more.

Plus, frankly, just ram even more devastator torpedoes down their throat. Gets 'em every time.

Yeah, this is a bit of a problem with the new fleetcap system tbh. You can get 200 Devastator torpedos into a fleet with a fleetcap of (200) if you just spam torpedo corvettes. If you want to go for an missle build this will always be the best fleet. Cruisers just cant compete.

This problem is compounded by the fact that both destroyers and cruisers have bad defensive mechanics. They neither have 90% evasion nor the most armor/hull. Having a bit of evasion is fairly useless - making hull choice a bit of a binary choice. You either build an evasion fleet or an max combined hp pool fleet.

What I also think is a bit sad is the fact that I often have to much energy left over in my ship designs - especially if I build hull/armor designs. There should be something available besides shields which also eat up energy but improve the ships fighting abilites. Just doesnt feel very good now to get a bit of an excessive energy bonus and thats it.
 

Fa1nan

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How would you build your starbase platforms with this information?
Would you put just 2 cloud lightnings i them? or is the range to short for that?
Cloud Lightning is only really relevant against FE and crises; against regular stuff torpedo 'vetts and Neutron Launcher BBs seem to be the name of the game. As such, I'd put these kind of weapons on starbases, though it's probably a good idea to fnetune according to whatever loadout the neighbour uses this base is supposed to defend against.
Has anyone tested what would be the best counter to torpedo spam ships, as an aside?
Apparently Picket Destroyer do counter them, but since you should just spam 'vetts yourself I'm guessing Autocannons with some PD thrown in.