That I think sums him up perfectly. When he engaged his brain before speaking he earned his reputation as an orator, when he didn't (which was an alarmingly high percentage of the time) he made an utter tit of himself.
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"He was no worse than the rest" is hardly a convincing defence.
Enoch Powell was so upset by British treatment of Mau Mau rebels (IIRC) that he nearly wept, and Mosley protested the use of Black & Tans in Ireland. That Churchill showed a measure of human decency doesn't exculpate him from the rest of his views. Also, frightfulness is very much a remedy in the British pharmacopoeia - two words: Boer War. And that's just a single example.
In hindsight, yes. But Churchill's anticommunism, along with that of many Establishment figures, was more a distaste for the economic aspects of the system than the tyranny. Fascism among European and UK Establishment figures (Churchill among them) was seen for what it was - a dictatorial system that didn't go after them and kept those bothersome proles in their place. For all their socialist varnish, neither Hitler nor Musso actually harmed the old elites, so their own systems were seen as infinitely preferable to Stalinism. Anticommunism, like antifascism, is a vague and generalised position, and one's reasons for opposing either Hitler or Stalin matter as much as one's opposition alone.
Yes, and not just British. My point was merely to treat him for what he was - a flawed historical figure who was frequently wrong on a lot of issues and personally a man of debatable character. His performance during the war and his oratory are what made him one of the greats, but one should avoid hagiography with all historical figures, particularly politicians.
Morsky does raise good points. Sometimes, Churchill couldn't seperate reality as it was from reality as he wanted it. For instance, Churchill was greatly determined to drag the United States into WWII. He did everything he could to persuade FDR to bring America into the war. However, Winston failed to understand both FDR's delicate position with the isolationists and the fact that a "yes" from the President didn't always mean he agreed with you. As Eleanor Roosevelt put it, "When my husband says 'yes', it often amounts to nothing more than 'yes, I am listening to you'."
Chapter 85, Downing Street, 10 September 1940
“Well, gentlemen; say is my kingdom lost?”
“Shakespeare, My Lord, though I must admit I cannot place it precisely,” Stanley returned Halifax’s greeting as he, Butler and the newly ennobled Lord Templewood, formerly Sir Samuel Hoare, entered the Prime Minister’s study. It was late in the afternoon, the stuffy heat of London was just beginning to ease and outside of the busy world of Whitehall most of London was heading home from work.
“Wichard the second. Act thwee.”
“The Kingdom certainly is not lost. We’re doing well I think.”
“You think, or you know? I wemind you, Sir, that the diffewence means a great deal.” Halifax was uncharacteristically waspish. They were used to his grumpiness and huffiness but vitriol was so unlike the Prime Minister that both Stanley and Butler instinctively edged backwards. Only Templewood dared to return Halifax’s stare.
“What Rab means, Prime Minister, is that everything moves in our favour.”
“Indeed,” Butler added, eager to make amends. “Attlee is finding it very sticky going as he defends that wish list of a manifesto.”
Too much imagery in one sentence, Rab, Halifax thought of his protégé. “But is the Conservative message getting acwoss?”
Stanley waved his hand in a ‘sort of’ gesture, which made the bald assurance that Butler was about to give slightly ridiculous. “Ending the war has done a lot of good, but a lot of people remember that it was Neville and yourself, Sir,” the ‘Sir’ was added quickly “who, in their view, led us into the war. Leo’s return has helped, but given the range of views on Foreign Affairs we come across as being pro-Treaty whilst being anti-Treaty, and every possible shade of grey in between. It is confusing.”
“Vewy well, I’ll think about it. Anything else?”
“I think people are genuinely concerned about employment and standards of living. The working class vote could go to Labour if they think we’re not going to do anything about their plight.”
“At this stage, can we do anything about it?” That was Templewood, rapidly superseding Butler as Halifax’s lieutenant.
“No. To be frank it’s only come out as the campaign has wore on. They like our message about building up the military to ensure our security, but at the same time have this nagging feeling that domestically we’ll be too laissez faire.”
Halifax’s patience, which had been thin anyway, finally snapped. “This campaign,” he said to no-one in particular, “has seen evewy kind of twist and turn. Whilst I will not pander to all orders I wish to wemain as Pwime Minister in order to facilitate the safety and secuwity of this wealm!”
“Sir,” Templewood said softly. “Why don’t I take up some of your work this evening? Perhaps Your Lordship could dine with Lady Halifax and enjoy an evening free from the campaign?”
Halifax pursed his lips, which the three observers took to be a good sign. “Vewy well, I am obliged to you, Lord Templewood. What I am doing tommowow?”
“You are visiting the Cotswolds to meet the farming community,” said Stanley. “They could be key to our success.”
“And on Polling Day?”
Stanley hesitated, looking unsure. “We’ve got a few ideas which I am still working on. As I will be in my constituency, and given that Rab has only a short journey to his constituency, he will be delivering the brief on Polling Day itself.” Butler beamed at the recognition, whilst Templewood looked over Halifax’s shoulder at the itinerary prepared by Stanley. Halifax nodded at the document.
“Thank you, Oliver, this is quite weasonable. Do you think we can outwun Attlee?”
“It will be close, My Lord, but I am confident we can.”
“In which instance you will have my heartfelt thanks. Gentlemen, I wish to speak to Lord Templewood alone. Good afternoon. Halifax waited until Stanley and Butler had left. He indicated that Templewood sit, which he duly did in a comfortable leather armchair.
“They wun me wagged, these younger members of the Party,” he said, a Halifax-esque weariness returning.
“If I may, Prime Minister, Oliver has been an asset of late. His steering of the campaign has been impressive.”
Halifax sighed. “I know that I am obliged to him for any success. Do you think we will pwevail?”
Templewood smiled. “Undoubtedly. I cannot see Attlee trumping us.”
“In which case,” said Halifax, for the first time allowing himself to imagine a Conservative victory, “we will need to think about a Cabinet.”
“Well, that’s a job for Your Lordship, the Chief Whip and the senior members.”
“Ah. Well, I have come to a conclusion. Margesson is an effective Chief Whip, and one that I will keep in office, as is Hacking as Chairman. However, I have already discussed with them both the importance of having a senior member of our Party, perhaps a peer, acting as my deputy and a strong voice,” here he paused, “of seasoned expewience.”
Templewood nodded, not understanding Halifax’s point. “My dear Lord Templewood, I would like you to be the new President of the Board of Twade, Leader of the House of Lords, and my de facto Deputy Pwime Minister.”
Templewood looked momentarily shocked. He then smiled. “Why have you picked on me?”
“I need a tewwier. I have wealised that I am not vewy effective in calming our squabbling twoops when they buzz awound me. Margesson is doing well but I fear he needs an authowative voice of support.”
“Of course I accept, Prime Minister, but, am I qualified?”
“Unquestionably. You are one of our gweat statesmen, Samuel. And I will need your assistance within Cabinet. There is also the matter of the wole of Party Leader.”
“Ah yes, it is still Neville.”
“Indeed. But with a Conservative Government this should also sit with the Prime Minister. I will need you to go to him, and to tell him that I will assume this title if we are victowious.”
“As you wish, Prime Minister. But, and this is not intended as anything other than observation, he will be devastated. He had hopes for a return.”
“No,” Halifax said curtly. “Duwing the failed attack on Parliament Neville almost wuined evewything. I have since wealised that I must be the sole leader of the Party. You understand, Samuel?”
“I do, My Lord,” Templewood said slowly. “But, I must counsel, this will look like petty revenge.”
“It is about ensuwing that there is one authowity. Neville was Leader only because I was Pwime Minister of a National Government. Now, we must have one leader.”
Templewood was a little taken aback. This was so unlike Halifax, though he had privately wondered when Chamberlain, who had (rather spitefully, Templewood thought) turned down every peerage and title offered to him by both Sovereign and Prime Minister, would see his powers trimmed by the King or Halifax. Though Halifax was undoubtedly right, it was the timing of it all that worried Templewood. The press could make this seem vindictive, Edward grabbing as much power as possible after the election, further tormenting Neville when he is so desperately unwell. I know that Edward does not care what the papers write, but this disregard for Neville is peculiar. Templewood smiled thinly and looked at his Prime Minister.
“Prime Minister I will visit Neville tomorrow. Perhaps, if we offer him a cabinet seat? Minister without portfolio or something, at least until he is recovered?”
Halifax nodded. “Yes, if he will accept. Minister without Portfolio with a pwomise of his choice of ministwy upon his full weturn to Westminster. Do you think that he will accept?”
“No, Prime Minister, but I think we ought to try.”
[Game Effect] – And so this update shows the Tories nervously starting to believe that they can win. I’ve written the actual election up (and have obviously played it) but will only say that I am convinced that this would have been a close one.
Sir Samuel Hoare becomes Lord Templewood – of course this happened in reality (though not as early as Paradox would have us believe!) but I have brought it sharply forward, something I think Halifax would have done if he wanted Hoare, not a spectacular Air Minister, as a grandee of the Party with gravitas. The name that kept buzzing in my head was “Willie Whitelaw”, a seasoned old Tory who was a key Deputy for Margaret Thatcher. I actually think for Halifax this is a sensible choice; though Hoare/Templewood was a failure in some of his appointments (a bit like Whitelaw actually) he nevertheless was able, amiable and a Chamberlain ultra-loyalist; Templewood, as we have seen, is the Conservative grandee most saddened by his obvious decline. If (and it is still if) the Tories win the election Templewood will have a huge influence over the make-up of the Cabinet, and I think we have an indication of where Halifax expects to draw his support from. For with ‘dear Neville’ rapidly fading, and now stripped of powers from Halifax, our gallant Viscount is now unchallenged as the leading ‘peacnik’. I’ve decided here to show him out of character, (he could occasionally be very petulant) for every character is three-dimensional and Halifax could be a very slick political operator. I think a sense of pre-election panic and a long-festering sense of injustice at Chamberlain has led to this act of political sorting out/naked revenge. But rest assured, dear reader, Francis Urquhart Halifax is not.
Kurt_Steiner: I’m not altogether sure he would. I think he would have at least been prepared to get a hint of what Halifax was up to. He doesn’t have to accept anything at this stage.
Phargle: Yes. Each knows that the other is lying (well not lying, but is being very evasive) and both are being very correct and formal, at this juncture. The scenario is practically medieval; each combatant squints through his eye slits before the tilt etc but I think that for Halifax certainly, some overture would have been made. For all the waffle about party unity, which has certainly improved with Eden and Amery’s support of Halifax, there are still cracks and a small diehard extremist wing could cause trouble. Halifax, as Prime Minister trying to keep the Tories electable, an overture, publicly leaked, to Churchill, would be a sign that he seeks to embrace all views. He doesn’t have to do anything with it, but its perception is key.
Of course for Winston, the matter is one of survival. If he is in trouble with his constituency then a vague hint of working for the good of the Conservative Party (again gently leaked) could serve to calm his constituency committee, which may be under pressure from the Party machinery.
GeneralHannibal: An interesting question, and I have been deliberately vague in this as Halifax has not bothered to fully investigate. I think that Churchill leads a small minority of anti-Milanites, but their support is wavering and with a Tory Party apparatus fully behind Halifax they may find it is better to serve under the Prime Minister’s umbrella.
Enewald:
Kurt_Steiner:
El Pip: Indeed. I think a first step for Halifax is to be seen to be conciliatory: after the election we may find he toughens towards the rebels.
TRP: the Liberals may (actually they probably will) pick up a few votes from voters hacked off with the two main parties, but they are not a credible party of government.
Sir Humphrey: A Macmillan-esque ‘Night of the long knives’ yes, beating people to death, no.
El Pip: smiley
Sir Humphrey: smiley
Striker475: Funnily enough, I love the idea of Halifax sending Churchill to Washington to deal with Roosevelt. There are three problems to this. Firstly, as you have said, Churchill would spot that it’s an attempt to get rid of him and would say no, secondly Lothian is still alive (and a friend of Halifax) and thirdly, what the hell would the Americans think?
Faeelin:
Indefatigable: Welcome aboard! Glad the Mackenzie King portrayal was thought acceptable; the story ideas for Britain and the Commonwealth are endless, especially with Beaverbrook in Canada. I’ve a few ideas as to Canada, which are borne out by the game (believe it or not there is an actual, thoroughly enjoyable game of HoI DD beneath all this).
Sir Humphrey: And I think this ambition would conflict with his natural inclination to defy Halifax. But in the end, I still think that after going through the motions, he and Halifax will struggle to improve their relationship.
Morsky: A think at this stage, with the election still to go, Halifax would not risk sending Winston anywhere. Of course, such an act, politically quite decisive (well, for Halifax) might actually be just the tonic needed, galvanising his supporters and isolating the anti-Milanites. It’s just too decisive for Halifax at this point.
Trekaddict:
Faeelin/El Pip/Morsky/Indefatigable/Nathan Madien: My own feelings on Churchill are thus.
Very occasionally a politician matches the mood – even when that mood is not yet realised. In 1982 a huge swathe of the Conservative Party wobbled on the UK’s ability to recapture the Falklands. Mrs T didn’t wobble, and was the key driver (aided by Sir Henry Leach) in getting Parliament behind Operation Corporate. Another example would be Blair over the Princess of Wales thing – smug little creep yes but he caught the mood (unpleasant though it was) quite well. Winston was obviously this, he knew that few other senior politicians thought that Britain could fight on (a very different question to whether she should fight on) and led the defiance to Hitler. In that he achieved what no other senior politician could do. I cannot think of Halifax, Attlee, Simon, Hoare, Eden, Dalton being able to lead a Britain at war in 1940.
BUT – nearly every criticism of him here is reasonably fair. As a peacetime PM I think he would have struggled. I have tried here to show that he is not a saint – but I think that he makes such a striking contrast with Halifax that for the AAR he is very useful!
“Well, gentlemen; say is my kingdom lost?”
“Shakespeare, My Lord, though I must admit I cannot place it precisely,” Stanley returned Halifax’s greeting as he, Butler and the newly ennobled Lord Templewood, formerly Sir Samuel Hoare, entered the Prime Minister’s study. It was late in the afternoon, the stuffy heat of London was just beginning to ease and outside of the busy world of Whitehall most of London was heading home from work.
“Wichard the second. Act thwee.”
“The Kingdom certainly is not lost. We’re doing well I think.”
“You think, or you know? I wemind you, Sir, that the diffewence means a great deal.” Halifax was uncharacteristically waspish. They were used to his grumpiness and huffiness but vitriol was so unlike the Prime Minister that both Stanley and Butler instinctively edged backwards. Only Templewood dared to return Halifax’s stare.
“What Rab means, Prime Minister, is that everything moves in our favour.”
“Indeed,” Butler added, eager to make amends. “Attlee is finding it very sticky going as he defends that wish list of a manifesto.”
Too much imagery in one sentence, Rab, Halifax thought of his protégé. “But is the Conservative message getting acwoss?”
Stanley waved his hand in a ‘sort of’ gesture, which made the bald assurance that Butler was about to give slightly ridiculous. “Ending the war has done a lot of good, but a lot of people remember that it was Neville and yourself, Sir,” the ‘Sir’ was added quickly “who, in their view, led us into the war. Leo’s return has helped, but given the range of views on Foreign Affairs we come across as being pro-Treaty whilst being anti-Treaty, and every possible shade of grey in between. It is confusing.”
“Vewy well, I’ll think about it. Anything else?”
“I think people are genuinely concerned about employment and standards of living. The working class vote could go to Labour if they think we’re not going to do anything about their plight.”
“At this stage, can we do anything about it?” That was Templewood, rapidly superseding Butler as Halifax’s lieutenant.
“No. To be frank it’s only come out as the campaign has wore on. They like our message about building up the military to ensure our security, but at the same time have this nagging feeling that domestically we’ll be too laissez faire.”
Halifax’s patience, which had been thin anyway, finally snapped. “This campaign,” he said to no-one in particular, “has seen evewy kind of twist and turn. Whilst I will not pander to all orders I wish to wemain as Pwime Minister in order to facilitate the safety and secuwity of this wealm!”
“Sir,” Templewood said softly. “Why don’t I take up some of your work this evening? Perhaps Your Lordship could dine with Lady Halifax and enjoy an evening free from the campaign?”
Halifax pursed his lips, which the three observers took to be a good sign. “Vewy well, I am obliged to you, Lord Templewood. What I am doing tommowow?”
“You are visiting the Cotswolds to meet the farming community,” said Stanley. “They could be key to our success.”
“And on Polling Day?”
Stanley hesitated, looking unsure. “We’ve got a few ideas which I am still working on. As I will be in my constituency, and given that Rab has only a short journey to his constituency, he will be delivering the brief on Polling Day itself.” Butler beamed at the recognition, whilst Templewood looked over Halifax’s shoulder at the itinerary prepared by Stanley. Halifax nodded at the document.
“Thank you, Oliver, this is quite weasonable. Do you think we can outwun Attlee?”
“It will be close, My Lord, but I am confident we can.”
“In which instance you will have my heartfelt thanks. Gentlemen, I wish to speak to Lord Templewood alone. Good afternoon. Halifax waited until Stanley and Butler had left. He indicated that Templewood sit, which he duly did in a comfortable leather armchair.
“They wun me wagged, these younger members of the Party,” he said, a Halifax-esque weariness returning.
“If I may, Prime Minister, Oliver has been an asset of late. His steering of the campaign has been impressive.”
Halifax sighed. “I know that I am obliged to him for any success. Do you think we will pwevail?”
Templewood smiled. “Undoubtedly. I cannot see Attlee trumping us.”
“In which case,” said Halifax, for the first time allowing himself to imagine a Conservative victory, “we will need to think about a Cabinet.”
“Well, that’s a job for Your Lordship, the Chief Whip and the senior members.”
“Ah. Well, I have come to a conclusion. Margesson is an effective Chief Whip, and one that I will keep in office, as is Hacking as Chairman. However, I have already discussed with them both the importance of having a senior member of our Party, perhaps a peer, acting as my deputy and a strong voice,” here he paused, “of seasoned expewience.”
Templewood nodded, not understanding Halifax’s point. “My dear Lord Templewood, I would like you to be the new President of the Board of Twade, Leader of the House of Lords, and my de facto Deputy Pwime Minister.”
Templewood looked momentarily shocked. He then smiled. “Why have you picked on me?”
“I need a tewwier. I have wealised that I am not vewy effective in calming our squabbling twoops when they buzz awound me. Margesson is doing well but I fear he needs an authowative voice of support.”
“Of course I accept, Prime Minister, but, am I qualified?”
“Unquestionably. You are one of our gweat statesmen, Samuel. And I will need your assistance within Cabinet. There is also the matter of the wole of Party Leader.”
“Ah yes, it is still Neville.”
“Indeed. But with a Conservative Government this should also sit with the Prime Minister. I will need you to go to him, and to tell him that I will assume this title if we are victowious.”
“As you wish, Prime Minister. But, and this is not intended as anything other than observation, he will be devastated. He had hopes for a return.”
“No,” Halifax said curtly. “Duwing the failed attack on Parliament Neville almost wuined evewything. I have since wealised that I must be the sole leader of the Party. You understand, Samuel?”
“I do, My Lord,” Templewood said slowly. “But, I must counsel, this will look like petty revenge.”
“It is about ensuwing that there is one authowity. Neville was Leader only because I was Pwime Minister of a National Government. Now, we must have one leader.”
Templewood was a little taken aback. This was so unlike Halifax, though he had privately wondered when Chamberlain, who had (rather spitefully, Templewood thought) turned down every peerage and title offered to him by both Sovereign and Prime Minister, would see his powers trimmed by the King or Halifax. Though Halifax was undoubtedly right, it was the timing of it all that worried Templewood. The press could make this seem vindictive, Edward grabbing as much power as possible after the election, further tormenting Neville when he is so desperately unwell. I know that Edward does not care what the papers write, but this disregard for Neville is peculiar. Templewood smiled thinly and looked at his Prime Minister.
“Prime Minister I will visit Neville tomorrow. Perhaps, if we offer him a cabinet seat? Minister without portfolio or something, at least until he is recovered?”
Halifax nodded. “Yes, if he will accept. Minister without Portfolio with a pwomise of his choice of ministwy upon his full weturn to Westminster. Do you think that he will accept?”
“No, Prime Minister, but I think we ought to try.”
[Game Effect] – And so this update shows the Tories nervously starting to believe that they can win. I’ve written the actual election up (and have obviously played it) but will only say that I am convinced that this would have been a close one.
Sir Samuel Hoare becomes Lord Templewood – of course this happened in reality (though not as early as Paradox would have us believe!) but I have brought it sharply forward, something I think Halifax would have done if he wanted Hoare, not a spectacular Air Minister, as a grandee of the Party with gravitas. The name that kept buzzing in my head was “Willie Whitelaw”, a seasoned old Tory who was a key Deputy for Margaret Thatcher. I actually think for Halifax this is a sensible choice; though Hoare/Templewood was a failure in some of his appointments (a bit like Whitelaw actually) he nevertheless was able, amiable and a Chamberlain ultra-loyalist; Templewood, as we have seen, is the Conservative grandee most saddened by his obvious decline. If (and it is still if) the Tories win the election Templewood will have a huge influence over the make-up of the Cabinet, and I think we have an indication of where Halifax expects to draw his support from. For with ‘dear Neville’ rapidly fading, and now stripped of powers from Halifax, our gallant Viscount is now unchallenged as the leading ‘peacnik’. I’ve decided here to show him out of character, (he could occasionally be very petulant) for every character is three-dimensional and Halifax could be a very slick political operator. I think a sense of pre-election panic and a long-festering sense of injustice at Chamberlain has led to this act of political sorting out/naked revenge. But rest assured, dear reader, Francis Urquhart Halifax is not.
Kurt_Steiner: I’m not altogether sure he would. I think he would have at least been prepared to get a hint of what Halifax was up to. He doesn’t have to accept anything at this stage.
Phargle: Yes. Each knows that the other is lying (well not lying, but is being very evasive) and both are being very correct and formal, at this juncture. The scenario is practically medieval; each combatant squints through his eye slits before the tilt etc but I think that for Halifax certainly, some overture would have been made. For all the waffle about party unity, which has certainly improved with Eden and Amery’s support of Halifax, there are still cracks and a small diehard extremist wing could cause trouble. Halifax, as Prime Minister trying to keep the Tories electable, an overture, publicly leaked, to Churchill, would be a sign that he seeks to embrace all views. He doesn’t have to do anything with it, but its perception is key.
Of course for Winston, the matter is one of survival. If he is in trouble with his constituency then a vague hint of working for the good of the Conservative Party (again gently leaked) could serve to calm his constituency committee, which may be under pressure from the Party machinery.
GeneralHannibal: An interesting question, and I have been deliberately vague in this as Halifax has not bothered to fully investigate. I think that Churchill leads a small minority of anti-Milanites, but their support is wavering and with a Tory Party apparatus fully behind Halifax they may find it is better to serve under the Prime Minister’s umbrella.
Enewald:
Kurt_Steiner:
El Pip: Indeed. I think a first step for Halifax is to be seen to be conciliatory: after the election we may find he toughens towards the rebels.
TRP: the Liberals may (actually they probably will) pick up a few votes from voters hacked off with the two main parties, but they are not a credible party of government.
Sir Humphrey: A Macmillan-esque ‘Night of the long knives’ yes, beating people to death, no.
El Pip: smiley
Sir Humphrey: smiley
Striker475: Funnily enough, I love the idea of Halifax sending Churchill to Washington to deal with Roosevelt. There are three problems to this. Firstly, as you have said, Churchill would spot that it’s an attempt to get rid of him and would say no, secondly Lothian is still alive (and a friend of Halifax) and thirdly, what the hell would the Americans think?
Faeelin:
Indefatigable: Welcome aboard! Glad the Mackenzie King portrayal was thought acceptable; the story ideas for Britain and the Commonwealth are endless, especially with Beaverbrook in Canada. I’ve a few ideas as to Canada, which are borne out by the game (believe it or not there is an actual, thoroughly enjoyable game of HoI DD beneath all this).
Sir Humphrey: And I think this ambition would conflict with his natural inclination to defy Halifax. But in the end, I still think that after going through the motions, he and Halifax will struggle to improve their relationship.
Morsky: A think at this stage, with the election still to go, Halifax would not risk sending Winston anywhere. Of course, such an act, politically quite decisive (well, for Halifax) might actually be just the tonic needed, galvanising his supporters and isolating the anti-Milanites. It’s just too decisive for Halifax at this point.
Trekaddict:
Faeelin/El Pip/Morsky/Indefatigable/Nathan Madien: My own feelings on Churchill are thus.
Very occasionally a politician matches the mood – even when that mood is not yet realised. In 1982 a huge swathe of the Conservative Party wobbled on the UK’s ability to recapture the Falklands. Mrs T didn’t wobble, and was the key driver (aided by Sir Henry Leach) in getting Parliament behind Operation Corporate. Another example would be Blair over the Princess of Wales thing – smug little creep yes but he caught the mood (unpleasant though it was) quite well. Winston was obviously this, he knew that few other senior politicians thought that Britain could fight on (a very different question to whether she should fight on) and led the defiance to Hitler. In that he achieved what no other senior politician could do. I cannot think of Halifax, Attlee, Simon, Hoare, Eden, Dalton being able to lead a Britain at war in 1940.
BUT – nearly every criticism of him here is reasonably fair. As a peacetime PM I think he would have struggled. I have tried here to show that he is not a saint – but I think that he makes such a striking contrast with Halifax that for the AAR he is very useful!
If Eden had been up in the war cabinet (instead of just the outer cabinet) in 1940, he could have emerged as a serious leader after Norway, which of course Churchill had a large hand in. Whether of course the war would have continued on as OTL or better or worse (I have a feeling that Eden would be more inclined to let the Generals fight the war without little pet projects (such as Greece) get in the way.
Then again I suffer from Eden-Wank Syndrom (EWS).
Then again I suffer from Eden-Wank Syndrom (EWS).
All hail Füwew Halifax!
Seriously though, whilst I was half-expecting that Halifax would offer Winston the Job, I can see that they are nervous and I am very much looking forward to the election.
As for Winston as a peace-time PM: It was my understanding that what felled him in 45 were mainly domestic issues, hence why I gave him a proper Home Secretary, Morrisson I believe, so that he is remembered as a rather not-so-good Peace-time PM rather than a mediocre one. Most of his PM-ship will be taken up by the war of course. With this arrangement the Home Office will gain unprecedented power though. Ah well, this will make post-war politics interesting.
Seriously though, whilst I was half-expecting that Halifax would offer Winston the Job, I can see that they are nervous and I am very much looking forward to the election.
As for Winston as a peace-time PM: It was my understanding that what felled him in 45 were mainly domestic issues, hence why I gave him a proper Home Secretary, Morrisson I believe, so that he is remembered as a rather not-so-good Peace-time PM rather than a mediocre one. Most of his PM-ship will be taken up by the war of course. With this arrangement the Home Office will gain unprecedented power though. Ah well, this will make post-war politics interesting.
I don't see why doing everything you can to get the power that lets you win the war in the fight is a sign you're detached from reality, though.
I still don't see why the Conservatives think they can win, though. They lost the war, after all, and when it comes to promising "A land fit for heroes whose leader has led them all to their doom", the labor party can probably do better.
Btw, are there any significant third parties going to the elections?
Where are the fascists and communists?
Hiding?
Where are the fascists and communists?
Hiding?
Halifax is showing some teeth i like it. how do the Axis powers feel about the election?
Mosley's crew and Labour? Well...Mosley's boys are too ridiculous to notice, while Labour hasn't figured out they're communist yet...
TheExecuter
Then again I suffer from Eden-Wank Syndrom (EWS).
pining for suez?
Not as such. Churchill hung around for to long in my belief and Eden as his successor had a number of things going against him, including the botched operation in 1953 that left him prescribed to amphetamines which severly damaged his abilities particulary under times of stress, which Suez was. His lack of experience in domestic affairs led to him greatly misreading the mood of the country and because of the dominance of Churchill, the party as well.
I think if he had of become PM at say the 1951 election and Churchill finally retired then, he could have grasped domestic affairs better whilst still being very involved in foreign affairs (such as dominating whoever he chose for the FO), in other words a bit of "training time" before the balloon went up.
In the end, I sort of feel sorry for the guy.
I think if he had of become PM at say the 1951 election and Churchill finally retired then, he could have grasped domestic affairs better whilst still being very involved in foreign affairs (such as dominating whoever he chose for the FO), in other words a bit of "training time" before the balloon went up.
In the end, I sort of feel sorry for the guy.
Most interesting, I'd agree with your comments on Churchill being the right man at the right time.
On the update, nice to see Halifax showing a different facet of his personality, gives him a bit more depth and yet more reasons to dislike him. As to the outcome I think this further confirms that there are no good candidates, the decision is finding the least bad one.
In such a situation I can see the Tories picking up votes on the 'better the devil you know' principle. Bad as they may be they're a known bad, there's no telling how horrifically awful Labour would be.
On the update, nice to see Halifax showing a different facet of his personality, gives him a bit more depth and yet more reasons to dislike him. As to the outcome I think this further confirms that there are no good candidates, the decision is finding the least bad one.
In such a situation I can see the Tories picking up votes on the 'better the devil you know' principle. Bad as they may be they're a known bad, there's no telling how horrifically awful Labour would be.
I think the problem for the labour party is that there is no avoiding the fact that they would be less supportive of rearmament than the conservatives. This isn't 1945 where there is a peace dividend to be spent on redirecting resources to social programs - the military were soundly beaten and need to be improved.
The "how the hell do we afford both?" factor will surely play well for the conservatives - after all, Joe Public may want a NHS but they don't want a German NHS.
The gift that keeps on giving. I love the lisp thing, Le Jones.
Perhaps I worded it wrong. It isn't so much that Churchill was detached from reality but that Churchill expected more out of Roosevelt than Roosevelt was willing to go. Churchill built his hopes up so much, only to have them dashed by FDR's gradual approach.
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I definitely agree with you on that. Eden gets a bad rap for Suez. I think an Eden with plenty of experience could be strong force in the Conservative party...
Chapter 86, London, 12 September 1940
It was a beautiful morning, the endless, cloudless summer continuing. Halifax rose early, as usual, and, being a peer, found that he actually had little to do. Unlike Eden, Butler and Stanley, who could make an occasion of their voting for themselves in their constituencies, Halifax was left to brood in Downing Street, watching the bureaucrats and party members scurrying around Whitehall. His stomach felt sour, and he felt the beginnings of a headache. I must be kept occupied; otherwise I will allow the anxieties of the day ahead to press upon me. He was disturbed by the arrival of Butler and Channon, both wearing ridiculously oversized blue rosettes.
“Gentlemen, should you not be out at the hustings?”
Butler smiled. “My Lord, I am departing for Saffron Walden shortly. Chips here will be off to Southend after this briefing. Does Your Lordship have any further instructions for us?”
“No, Wab, we are in the hands of the people. I am trapped here in London, a hostage of fate.”
“It’s good voting weather, which plays to our strength.” Butler saw that Halifax looked baffled. “If it was raining then only the most impassioned of electors would turn out.”
“Ah,” Halifax grasped the point. “The socialists.”
“Indeed. Good weather will bring out more voters. We’re launching the final push and I am confident that we will win.”
“Which is where,” Channon, primed by Butler, joined in, “Your Lordship would be valuable. So far we have achieved success in persuading the friends and families of the BEF that we brought them home. An appearance by their Prime Minister reminding people of this may be a great boon to our campaign.”
Halifax scowled. He hated radio and was not personally popular with the newspapers. “What exactly did you have in mind?”
Butler replied. “One speech, in Chelsea. No live reporting,” he said quickly, seeking to allay his Prime Minister’s fears, “and the media kept in their rightful place. A visit to the Chelsea Hospital, where have a range of veterans from recent wars prepared. A speech, making your position clear, stating that no matter what our differences on Europe we are united to not wasting further life.”
“You mean, mask the differences of you and Anthony.”
“Exactly that, Sir.”
“Vewy well, make the awwangements, I am glad to have something to do.”
Butler, still confidently beaming, suddenly jutted out his right hand. “My Lord, may I wish you a successful day?”
Halifax frowned, disliking Butler’s sudden familiarity. “You may,” he said equably. “Let us hope that we can outrun Attlee. Good hunting, gentlemen.” Butler and Channon bowed and retired.
Two hours later, and Halifax was racing through the streets of London. Stanley, ever the showman, had taken time out of his own electioneering to arrange an open-top car and so Halifax, waving stiffly, was driven in elegance through London. Finally they arrived at the Royal Hospital, Chelsea. An escort of Chelsea pensioners snapped to attention as Halifax was led out. He felt the traditional pang of patriotism as he saw the black bicornes and red tunics of the pensioners, most of them aged and all of them bearing rows of medals. Halifax wore his medals of service from his time on the Western Front, even though his limited military service was spent in the rear-echelons of the Army. But, as his wife had understood, image was everything and a ramrod straight Prime Minister was pictured by the world’s media marching briskly into the beautiful dining hall. There, with an assortment of military personnel, from frail Sudan and Boer War veterans to proud survivors of Arras, and nervous reservists who had yet to see action, Halifax calmly reminded them of all that his leadership had achieved.
“I weitewate to the fathers and mothers of this nation, I shall not seek to see your sons slaughtered in a tewwible war.” The applause was polite rather than passionate. “This Government was formed in the depths of a tewwible” one of the Conservative aides winced at the repetition of the word ‘terrible’ “conflict that thweatened to destroy the Bwitish Empire.” Halifax was apprehensive, his speech impediment more pronounced than usual. “We will, if re-elected, engage with all nations of the world to ensure that there are no wasteful wars.”
It was not a ‘tidy’ speech, Halifax wasn’t really an orator and thus made mistakes easily. He had made his point, the BBC could report his message on the wireless, and the British public (or those who had yet to cast their vote) had something else to consider as they went to the polling stations. Clement Attlee was busily canvassing in his London constituency when he heard the message broadcast over the airwaves. For him it had been a busy, enjoyable day, as he trudged around the Limehouse Constituency in the deprived Stepney area of London. The locals had confidently returned him without incident loyally for eighteen years, and as he walked from house to house, shaking hands, kissing babies, conforming to every cliché of the campaigning politician, many of his constituents expressed concerns over the fate of the Empire. Some were worried about the German threat, but most urged him to be bold in his vision of a socially reformed Britain. As he wandered through dilapidated Victorian terraces he promised them jobs, homes, cheap food, security. One lady, a proud woman who had seen her husband maimed on the Western Front and was worried about her sailor son, gave Attlee a chill of fear. She should, his wife remarked, had been a Labour voter; her husband had struggled to get work, drifting through menial factory jobs, whilst she herself had seen suffering and hardship and a struggle just to survive. But the fears of Europe, wily, threatening and not to be trusted, preyed on her mind and Attlee suspected she would vote for Halifax. Sadly, he looked at his wife, patient and supportive and his driver today, and readied himself for the polling station. It was proving to be a long day.
Halifax too had felt that the day was fast becoming a trial. After a pleasant enough lunch in the Royal Hospital he had prayed for a moment in the chapel before returning to Downing Street. Already the embers were gathering, from old friends who genuinely wanted to (publicly) give their support to London-based politicians who could afford to pay a visit to their leader. Dorothy, seeing the strain that every interview and every consultation was placing upon her husband, finally summoned Templewood to ‘do his job as gatekeeper’. But one call could not be turned away.
“I’m sorry to disturb you, Prime Minister,” he said as he invaded Halifax’s retreat, the gardens of 10 Downing Street where he, Lady Dorothy and Walter Monckton, a close friend, were taking tea. “Mr Attlee is on the phone.”
“Mr Attlee? Why on Earth is he calling me?”
“I think, My Lord, to wish you well.”
Halifax was away for only a few minutes. He emerged later, looking slightly baffled. “He urged us to work together wegardless of the wesult.”
Monckton smiled, suspecting, like Lady Halifax, that Attlee was anxious. Halifax himself flopped onto a chair and looked up at the pleasant late afternoon light.
“My Lord, are you alright?” That was Monckton, concerned for his friend. Templewood too looked troubled.
“Sir, perhaps you should lie down for a few hours,” Templewood muttered.
“Is there anything else I can possibly do today?”
“No, Prime Minister, the die is cast,” Monckton said softly.
Halifax nodded, “in that case please advise Lord Dunglass that as soon as the wesult is clear I am to be woken. I am pwoceeding to my bed.”
Without another word, Halifax strode into the house and proceded to rest.
[Game Effect] – Well, the election takes place.
What will happen – I’m not going to tell you...
Sir Humphrey: I’m always wary of Eden. He had charisma in spades and was certainly a popular figure, and perhaps I have been rather harsh on him in the AAR. And yet I cannot escape the fact that he wasn’t spectacularly effective during the War (I know he had his successes, but he could also be incredibly indolent) and I’m not sure he had the phlegmatic judgement required for high office (essentially, no bottom).
Trekaddict: If the Tories win, what to do with Churchill will be on Halifax’s list of initial ‘concerns’.
Faeelin: But would you vote Labour based on their manifesto? As has often been pointed out, neither side has done much to emerge as the clear ‘party of government’.
Enewald: The usual collection of lunatics make up the other parties. The Liberals I think will do well (or better, anyway) as they pick up votes from diasseffected voters, and the communists and extreme right-wing mob could find themselves in a stronger position. With such mediocre main parties I think the minority parties will pick up votes.
Maximus323: I think that the Axis parties would play a waiting game. After all, none of the likely parties of government have yet advocated renewing the war! I think that after the election diplomacy between London, Berlin, Rome and (possibly) Paris will kick off in earnest.
TheExecuter:
Indefatigable:
Sir Humphrey: I can sympathise with him, but I think I still agree with my comments above.
El Pip: All of which means that when Cole is sent to wake Halifax, the news may be intriguing.
Derek Pullem: An excellent point, Sir. Even if Labour aren’t going to shred the Armed Forces, there is the simple fact that to achieve their promised reforms, the sums just won’t add up without serious trimming elsewhere.
Nathan Madien: I have a far worse prospect: Halifax trying to forge a relationship with FDR!
Indefatigable: But will Halifax want him in any post-election setup?
It was a beautiful morning, the endless, cloudless summer continuing. Halifax rose early, as usual, and, being a peer, found that he actually had little to do. Unlike Eden, Butler and Stanley, who could make an occasion of their voting for themselves in their constituencies, Halifax was left to brood in Downing Street, watching the bureaucrats and party members scurrying around Whitehall. His stomach felt sour, and he felt the beginnings of a headache. I must be kept occupied; otherwise I will allow the anxieties of the day ahead to press upon me. He was disturbed by the arrival of Butler and Channon, both wearing ridiculously oversized blue rosettes.
“Gentlemen, should you not be out at the hustings?”
Butler smiled. “My Lord, I am departing for Saffron Walden shortly. Chips here will be off to Southend after this briefing. Does Your Lordship have any further instructions for us?”
“No, Wab, we are in the hands of the people. I am trapped here in London, a hostage of fate.”
“It’s good voting weather, which plays to our strength.” Butler saw that Halifax looked baffled. “If it was raining then only the most impassioned of electors would turn out.”
“Ah,” Halifax grasped the point. “The socialists.”
“Indeed. Good weather will bring out more voters. We’re launching the final push and I am confident that we will win.”
“Which is where,” Channon, primed by Butler, joined in, “Your Lordship would be valuable. So far we have achieved success in persuading the friends and families of the BEF that we brought them home. An appearance by their Prime Minister reminding people of this may be a great boon to our campaign.”
Halifax scowled. He hated radio and was not personally popular with the newspapers. “What exactly did you have in mind?”
Butler replied. “One speech, in Chelsea. No live reporting,” he said quickly, seeking to allay his Prime Minister’s fears, “and the media kept in their rightful place. A visit to the Chelsea Hospital, where have a range of veterans from recent wars prepared. A speech, making your position clear, stating that no matter what our differences on Europe we are united to not wasting further life.”
“You mean, mask the differences of you and Anthony.”
“Exactly that, Sir.”
“Vewy well, make the awwangements, I am glad to have something to do.”
Butler, still confidently beaming, suddenly jutted out his right hand. “My Lord, may I wish you a successful day?”
Halifax frowned, disliking Butler’s sudden familiarity. “You may,” he said equably. “Let us hope that we can outrun Attlee. Good hunting, gentlemen.” Butler and Channon bowed and retired.
Two hours later, and Halifax was racing through the streets of London. Stanley, ever the showman, had taken time out of his own electioneering to arrange an open-top car and so Halifax, waving stiffly, was driven in elegance through London. Finally they arrived at the Royal Hospital, Chelsea. An escort of Chelsea pensioners snapped to attention as Halifax was led out. He felt the traditional pang of patriotism as he saw the black bicornes and red tunics of the pensioners, most of them aged and all of them bearing rows of medals. Halifax wore his medals of service from his time on the Western Front, even though his limited military service was spent in the rear-echelons of the Army. But, as his wife had understood, image was everything and a ramrod straight Prime Minister was pictured by the world’s media marching briskly into the beautiful dining hall. There, with an assortment of military personnel, from frail Sudan and Boer War veterans to proud survivors of Arras, and nervous reservists who had yet to see action, Halifax calmly reminded them of all that his leadership had achieved.
“I weitewate to the fathers and mothers of this nation, I shall not seek to see your sons slaughtered in a tewwible war.” The applause was polite rather than passionate. “This Government was formed in the depths of a tewwible” one of the Conservative aides winced at the repetition of the word ‘terrible’ “conflict that thweatened to destroy the Bwitish Empire.” Halifax was apprehensive, his speech impediment more pronounced than usual. “We will, if re-elected, engage with all nations of the world to ensure that there are no wasteful wars.”
It was not a ‘tidy’ speech, Halifax wasn’t really an orator and thus made mistakes easily. He had made his point, the BBC could report his message on the wireless, and the British public (or those who had yet to cast their vote) had something else to consider as they went to the polling stations. Clement Attlee was busily canvassing in his London constituency when he heard the message broadcast over the airwaves. For him it had been a busy, enjoyable day, as he trudged around the Limehouse Constituency in the deprived Stepney area of London. The locals had confidently returned him without incident loyally for eighteen years, and as he walked from house to house, shaking hands, kissing babies, conforming to every cliché of the campaigning politician, many of his constituents expressed concerns over the fate of the Empire. Some were worried about the German threat, but most urged him to be bold in his vision of a socially reformed Britain. As he wandered through dilapidated Victorian terraces he promised them jobs, homes, cheap food, security. One lady, a proud woman who had seen her husband maimed on the Western Front and was worried about her sailor son, gave Attlee a chill of fear. She should, his wife remarked, had been a Labour voter; her husband had struggled to get work, drifting through menial factory jobs, whilst she herself had seen suffering and hardship and a struggle just to survive. But the fears of Europe, wily, threatening and not to be trusted, preyed on her mind and Attlee suspected she would vote for Halifax. Sadly, he looked at his wife, patient and supportive and his driver today, and readied himself for the polling station. It was proving to be a long day.
Halifax too had felt that the day was fast becoming a trial. After a pleasant enough lunch in the Royal Hospital he had prayed for a moment in the chapel before returning to Downing Street. Already the embers were gathering, from old friends who genuinely wanted to (publicly) give their support to London-based politicians who could afford to pay a visit to their leader. Dorothy, seeing the strain that every interview and every consultation was placing upon her husband, finally summoned Templewood to ‘do his job as gatekeeper’. But one call could not be turned away.
“I’m sorry to disturb you, Prime Minister,” he said as he invaded Halifax’s retreat, the gardens of 10 Downing Street where he, Lady Dorothy and Walter Monckton, a close friend, were taking tea. “Mr Attlee is on the phone.”
“Mr Attlee? Why on Earth is he calling me?”
“I think, My Lord, to wish you well.”
Halifax was away for only a few minutes. He emerged later, looking slightly baffled. “He urged us to work together wegardless of the wesult.”
Monckton smiled, suspecting, like Lady Halifax, that Attlee was anxious. Halifax himself flopped onto a chair and looked up at the pleasant late afternoon light.
“My Lord, are you alright?” That was Monckton, concerned for his friend. Templewood too looked troubled.
“Sir, perhaps you should lie down for a few hours,” Templewood muttered.
“Is there anything else I can possibly do today?”
“No, Prime Minister, the die is cast,” Monckton said softly.
Halifax nodded, “in that case please advise Lord Dunglass that as soon as the wesult is clear I am to be woken. I am pwoceeding to my bed.”
Without another word, Halifax strode into the house and proceded to rest.
[Game Effect] – Well, the election takes place.
What will happen – I’m not going to tell you...
Sir Humphrey: I’m always wary of Eden. He had charisma in spades and was certainly a popular figure, and perhaps I have been rather harsh on him in the AAR. And yet I cannot escape the fact that he wasn’t spectacularly effective during the War (I know he had his successes, but he could also be incredibly indolent) and I’m not sure he had the phlegmatic judgement required for high office (essentially, no bottom).
Trekaddict: If the Tories win, what to do with Churchill will be on Halifax’s list of initial ‘concerns’.
Faeelin: But would you vote Labour based on their manifesto? As has often been pointed out, neither side has done much to emerge as the clear ‘party of government’.
Enewald: The usual collection of lunatics make up the other parties. The Liberals I think will do well (or better, anyway) as they pick up votes from diasseffected voters, and the communists and extreme right-wing mob could find themselves in a stronger position. With such mediocre main parties I think the minority parties will pick up votes.
Maximus323: I think that the Axis parties would play a waiting game. After all, none of the likely parties of government have yet advocated renewing the war! I think that after the election diplomacy between London, Berlin, Rome and (possibly) Paris will kick off in earnest.
TheExecuter:
Indefatigable:
Sir Humphrey: I can sympathise with him, but I think I still agree with my comments above.
El Pip: All of which means that when Cole is sent to wake Halifax, the news may be intriguing.
Derek Pullem: An excellent point, Sir. Even if Labour aren’t going to shred the Armed Forces, there is the simple fact that to achieve their promised reforms, the sums just won’t add up without serious trimming elsewhere.
Nathan Madien: I have a far worse prospect: Halifax trying to forge a relationship with FDR!
Indefatigable: But will Halifax want him in any post-election setup?
So we shall never find out who wins the elections?
The end of this aar?
And 86th chapter!
I wonder how many times I have comment here...
The end of this aar?
And 86th chapter!
I wonder how many times I have comment here...
