To sir Humphrey and Trekkie,
if you could imagine what idea you've given me...
Excuse me for kidnnapping the thread. Go on, please.
If you do what I think you will do I will hunt you down.
Carry on now.
-
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If you do what I think you will do I will hunt you down.
Carry on now.
If you're thinking what I'm think that you're thinking, I think you're wrong. But if you're really thinking what I'm thinking you're thinking that I am really thinking, then you will be quite happy when you see the results.
By the way, you've missed my contributions to the list of the worst PMs and about Suez.
To sir Humphrey and Trekkie,
if you could imagine what idea you've given me...
Excuse me for kidnnapping the thread. Go on, please.
Just a silly question. Shouldn't the earl of Bute be added to this list of "Glorious" PMs?
Finally, I always wondered who was to blame about Suez, whether it was Eden or the Foreign Office the culprit of that mess. Anyway, that failure should have taught England a lesson: never to ally with France.
The lesson learned by the UK was never get too far away from American policy.
The lesson learned by France was never trust the Anglo-Americans again.
Indeed. But, once Nasser had started the fun and the ball... Oh, it doesn't matter, that question belongs to the history section.
That's Tony f*cking Benn, a man who (praise the lord) was never Prime Minister. There is not a circle of hell low enough for that man, however many legion of agonies he suffers will never be sufficient to compensate for his crimes while in government. And that doesn't even cover the crimes of his spawn.
Americans and Britons have something in common: all you have to do is utter a certain word that starts with "N" and people automatically go nuts.
Not to mention a certain German often seen in these parts.
Besides if you'd seen your country's railways, mining, ship building, aerospace, automotive and computer industries (and countless more I've doubtless repressed) destroyed by being run by tossers in Whitehall you'd hate the N word too.
Yet, having incompetant nationalised industry seems to be restricted to a British affair. Of course Thatcher using government control of the National Coal Board to stockpile large coal stocks in foreshadow of any inevitable strike (as a result of confronting the unions) to ensure supply, does result as a benefit of having a nationalised industry..
Indeed, other nations do appear to manage such industries with a degree of competence though things always seem more complicated when you scratch the surface.
For instance no-one seems to complain that the German coal industry runs at a thundering loss, its part of the political settlement of the country "We will chunk billions at the miners and in exchange they'll keep quiet as they know they're onto a very good thing." Quite how such an affair came about is a mystery to me, but it appears to be stable. If it is desirable is quite another question.
It's *probably* because the few coal mines that are still running are in an area where there used to be loads of them, mining the only natural resource we never had to stea...buy from our neighbours.
Chapter 165, Baltimore, 1 February 1942
Halifax had sent Churchill to America in style, though in fairness it was Churchill himself who had suggested the manner of his arrival. As part of his desire to improve relations with an America who, now that she was fully engaging in warfare with the Japanese, seemed carelessly uninterested in Britain’s own desires and was looking for a hint of British support. The Prime Minister had loaded his envoy to the United States on HMS Hood, no doubting hoping, as Churchill did, that such a famous example of British military might would impress Churchill’s hosts. Churchill, in his element on the famous battlecruiser, had immediately decided to invite Roosevelt to meet him onboard as part of his grand arrival. But Roosevelt, cannily, had refused the invitation and had instead invited the British emissary onboard one of the American warships. And now, anchored not too far away from the American capital Churchill and Woolton, along with Cadogan from the Foreign Office and the commander of the small British flotilla, Rear Admiral Sir Henry Harwood, readied themselves for the short boat trip to the waiting American warships.
Sir Alec Cadogan of the Foreign Office, ordered by Halifax to “keep Winston running with the pack”, grimaced as he realised that the next few days would be busy indeed. Churchill, in a thick overcoat to keep out the cold sea breeze and wearing a tattered sailor’s cap, looked to Cadogan more like a Breton fisherman than the envoy from the British Empire. Woolton, who had ‘snuck onboard’ Hood with the American pilot, cut a smarter figure, looked anxiously at his watch as he, Cadogan and Woolton trailed behind Churchill as he stalked to the pilot ladder and the waiting launch below.
“Remember, Mr Churchill,” Cadogan said sharply. “No silly alliances. We are not here to hand that tiresome man the Royal Navy and British Army without some firm guarantees.”
Churchill halted suddenly, turning on the spot to regard Cadogan with a mixture of hostility and understanding. Churchill, like Cadogan, firmly believed that the Japanese onslaught through the Far East needed to be met with a resolute British response. Cadogan, Churchill knew, was deeply worried for the fate of the Commonwealth, with Canada and South Africa drifting towards Roosevelt should Britain not respond. But there the agreement between the two men ended. For Cadogan was as worried about American encroachment into British spheres of influence as he was Japanese. And he was determined that not one British ship would fight with the Americans unless firm acceptances of British primacy in the Commonwealth were gained. Woolton, Churchill thought, the reflection making him shift his gaze to the kindly face of the Ambassador, was torn between Cadogan’s sceptical approach and Churchill’s idealism. And so Churchill had pledged to focus his persuasive skills on Woolton.
The Admiral’s launch took the small British delegation swiftly from the high, sheer sides of a British warship to the high, sheer sides of an American one, the USS Arkansas. Absent from the Pacific Fleet during the attacks of the previous December, she was now fitting out for her deployment as the escort for a large convoy to the huge, sprawling, US Navy facilities in Hawaii. Striding up the rickety steps like a small boy, Churchill was touched by the presence of the President and some of his senior officers who assembled to greet their British guests.
“Mr President, here is my letter of presentation from Lords Halifax and Woolton. I am delighted to be here, to take forward the vital work for our two nations.” That Woolton had provided what was essentially a reference of character had touched Churchill, who had been worried by Eden’s warning that the Foreign Office was desperate to “scupper you before you utter a word”.
“Thank you, Mr Churchill. On behalf of the American people I welcome you to the United States of America. You will forgive me, but I have other duties to attend to this afternoon.” Roosevelt seemed distant, preoccupied. The latest intelligence, which had reached HMS Hood just as she was entering American waters, was that the Philippines were under relentless bombardment as the Japanese continued their long campaign against the islands. It was understood that they were consolidating their recently acquired island of Mindoro, easily brushing aside the half-hearted US efforts to retake it. USS Arkansas, and the forces and equipment that she would be escorting, were part of the immense effort of this emerging power. Churchill knew that he had to work quickly.
“Then perhaps, Mr President, as the special representative of a friendly foreign power, I could accompany you on this visit?”
Roosevelt nodded; he realised instantly the power of such an image and it could, he realised, morally bind ever more closely the British to the United States. The two men were led along to the stern of the aging American battleship. Roosevelt’s wheelchair, winched aboard with some difficulty, was brought to him and he sagged into it with relief.
The two men, now alone, stood on the quarterdeck of the Arkansas. In the distance, towards Baltimore, smoke rose from the factories of a nation now energetically rearming. Roosevelt, in a recent radio broadcast that Hood had picked up on her approach to the coast, had exhorted his nation to become the “arsenal of democracy”. Oppressed peoples in the Pacific would be given whatever assistance they required to fight “Imperialist Japan”. Cadogan has bristled at Roosevelt’s emphasis on the ‘Empire’ of Japan, and so Churchill knew that he must lance this particular boil first.
“My dear Mr President, may I call you Franklin?” Roosevelt nodded slightly as Churchill continued. “I listened with interest to your broadcast over the wireless.”
Roosevelt looked at Churchill with interest. “You heard my speech?”
Churchill nodded quickly. “Indeed I did, Franklin, I heard your call for, now what was the term?”
“Self-determination,” Roosevelt said with a hint of fervour. “We want to end the evils of imperialism in the Pacific.”
Churchill knew that he couldn’t prevaricate any further. “And, Mr President, does that apply to the British Empire in the Far East?”
Roosevelt formed a wry smile. “I believe that you Britishers are a decent people, law-abiding and tolerant.” He stopped, as if preventing himself from speaking further.
“But, Mr President, what more? Franklin, if I am to bring the British Empire into this terrible war on the side of America there must be no secrets from us!”
“The European powers have ruled by a world tyranny, compounded of imperialism colonialism and power politics, which violates all political morals and in particular denies the elementary human rights of all peoples to be independent like the United States.”
Churchill closed his eyes. Whoever bloody wins, Yank or Jap, the end will be the same; they all covet our position, he thought sadly. He felt the ‘black dog’ of depression form, and turned to give this American, whom he wanted so dearly to like, a good old-fashioned English Parliamentarian’s response:
“We will not resign ourselves to fighting our utmost to defend India in order, if successful, to be turned out. If that is what is on offer Mr President then the Royal Navy, which risked so much in nineteen thirty-nine in the face of German aggression and American indolence, will not sail to aid your ships.” He jabbed a cigar clenching hand at Roosevelt. “So, in the name of our common ancestry, our glorious shared beliefs, let us go forward together, as allies, not dirty-handed rivals!” Churchill looked about for inspiration. “Bugger it. I am not Neville Chamberlain, I share your views on Japan, and unlike him, I will do something about it.”
Roosevelt nodded, for he agreed with Churchill’s pronouncements about Chamberlain. Chamberlain, at the height of the drama in Europe, had declared the President’s messages as being “half mad”, a declaration that had somehow reached the President’s ear. Roosevelt had not forgotten the insult, and realised how tired he was of fighting everybody. Turning to look at the cluster of British and American officials, he knew how the support of the British Empire and her Commonwealth could hasten the end of the war. And if the United States was in a position to exploit such a victory, to end the unbelievably backward exploitation of India, Ceylon and every other squalid colony, then Roosevelt would knew that he had done well. Nodding, he turned to Churchill.
“Then perhaps, Winston, we could agree the joint text of the Pacific Declaration between us?”
Churchill smiled. He had thought this man weak, but saw the lawyer’s mind working quickly to come to an agreed position. “I’m sure M’Lord Halifax and his Foreign Secretary will do their best to piddle in your soup, yes. There is one other matter, if I may impose further upon you.”
“What is it Mr Churchill?”
“Winston, please, do call me Winston. We must be as one Franklin, as one. To many in Britain, if we pledge our support and join in this war, then there will be untold cost, such pronounced suffering.”
Roosevelt frowned. “That is war.”
“But a huge war, so soon after the last one, and with us still paying for the debts of the Great War.”
Roosevelt smiled at Churchill’s discomfort. “I don’t see how this is a matter for the United States.
“Eight hundred million pounds, Franklin, probably more. If we are to join the war then we must see this debt cancelled.
Roosevelt kept smiling, but felt disappointed. He had heard that Churchill was an idealist, but now the British politician looked like a grubby gangster. John Nance Garner, the sour former Vice President, had gleefully opined to Roosevelt in 1939 that he prayed for the British to default on their war debts; such a move, he had declared, would prevent any further loans. Henry Wallace, the current Vice President, was similarly sceptical after Woolton had quietly suggested to Roosevelt in their discreet meeting that the cancellation of Britain’s Great War debts would be followed by an offer of an alliance to defeat the Japanese. Roosevelt decided to gamble, and to see how far this Englishman could carry his Prime Minister.
“Then if that is the cost, then I must pay.”
[Game Effect] – And so after a short absence I, and this lumbering AAR, return. Essentially, before we even look at whether Britain ought to declare war upon Japan, there are two thorny issues that would stop an Anglo-American alliance. The first, and probably the thorniest, is the Empire. Roosevelt, robbed of some of his more melodramatic outbursts by the lack of a European war, would probably peddle self-determination on the Pacific region. I actually think that is quite clever: it gets the struggling peoples of the DEI, China, Korea, Indochina and potentially India firmly behind FDR and the USA in their quest to free the region from Imperialism. The speech about tyranny and power politics really was spoken by FDR, and Churchill’s response is actually taken from a letter he wrote to the Canadians not long after an American protest at the ongoing survival of the Raj. Essentially the final decision rests with Halifax in London, and both Roosevelt and Churchill know that the Americans will be very careful to limit any guarantees they give to the British Empire in the Pacific. It’s always easy to portray the 1941-1942 period as one in which the clever Brits work their magic with the slower Americans. But it’s not that simple and FDR has so far kept any meaningful protection of the Empire off the table. Agreeing not to say nasty things about your ally’s Empire is one thing, emphatic support for the Raj is quite another.
Bizarrely, (and thanks as ever to Nathan Madien), one thing that America might be more willing to swallow is some sort of fudge over the saga that is Imperial WW1 debts. Garner’s views have been faithfully reported, and I suspect that Wallace, his replacement, might be equally wary of letting the British off with so large a sum, but in the absence of powerful allies FDR might just have let such a waiver go through. I can just picture FDR, having been given the British list of (essentially) demands, and thinking of the US marines preparing to board transports and ship out to fight at Wake, Iwo Jima etc. If then imagined the British-Indian hordes amassed in Burma, not to mention the fairly potent Royal Navy presence in the South China Sea, then I think that he would go for it. America hasn’t had the two years of careful, planned rearming that she had whilst she built up to equip both Britain and herself, and I think that she would be far weaker than she was OTL. All of the above (and blimey I’m starting to write an essay – THANKS A LOT OXFORD!) points me to FDR agreeing to Winston’s request.
El Pip: Agreed, and that mental journey is pretty much what happened to me – I think that in the end Imperial unity will be the telling factor.
Kurt_Steiner: Many thanks, the end is coming, I promise!
Enewald: You’ve been talking to FDR!
Nathan Madien: Picking the comment that interested me the most, I think that a likely successor to Halifax is actually probably Eden, or if the doves dominate then Butler. But a leadership race would be exceptionally bloody as neither side really has enough support. That said, the hawks are gathering their troops and could push Butler aside.
Sir Humphrey: Eden is really key to the story, not Churchill and certainly not Butler (who really only does what Halifax tell him anyway). Halifax knows this, Eden knows this.
Nathan Madien: I like Eden, and rate him highly as a prewar MP (though I’m not convinced by his performance as Churchill’s Foreign Secretary during the war). As a PM he was ill, quite painfully ill, and made short-tempered decisions that ultimately blew-up badly. But if Eisenhower has supported Suez he would be remembered differently.
El Pip: Callaghan, dear God Callaghan has to be the worst. Althought the current incumbent is possibly the nastiest for a long time.
Trekaddict: Both laughably disastrous decisions!
El Pip: Benn, Miliband, Callaghan, Cripps, Brown, my ‘top 4 irritating UK socialists’.
Trekaddict: I cannot bear to even have that man shot in this AAR. He just won’t feature.
Sir Humphrey: Having exchanged views on Eden with you before, I think that your comments are fair.
Kurt_Steiner: The Crimea, WW1, WW2, Suez, to look at that list makes me shiver.
Trekaddict:
Kurt_Steiner:
DonnieBaseball: A good, snappy, explanation of foreign policy!
Sir Humphrey: I think that the whole “get the Israelis to kick-start a war” was far too grubby. And Nasser was a scheming **** as well.
Kurt_Steiner:
Nathan Madien:
El Pip: I have to admit some Nationalisation can work, if it is small scale and not relied upon as essential by the country (and so, then, what’s the point of it?!). But to look at our record on it – more shivering.
Sir Humphrey: She would have just bought shedloads of the stuff. The woman was a bulldozer.
El Pip:
Trekaddict: Ouch.
Halifax had sent Churchill to America in style, though in fairness it was Churchill himself who had suggested the manner of his arrival. As part of his desire to improve relations with an America who, now that she was fully engaging in warfare with the Japanese, seemed carelessly uninterested in Britain’s own desires and was looking for a hint of British support. The Prime Minister had loaded his envoy to the United States on HMS Hood, no doubting hoping, as Churchill did, that such a famous example of British military might would impress Churchill’s hosts. Churchill, in his element on the famous battlecruiser, had immediately decided to invite Roosevelt to meet him onboard as part of his grand arrival. But Roosevelt, cannily, had refused the invitation and had instead invited the British emissary onboard one of the American warships. And now, anchored not too far away from the American capital Churchill and Woolton, along with Cadogan from the Foreign Office and the commander of the small British flotilla, Rear Admiral Sir Henry Harwood, readied themselves for the short boat trip to the waiting American warships.
Sir Alec Cadogan of the Foreign Office, ordered by Halifax to “keep Winston running with the pack”, grimaced as he realised that the next few days would be busy indeed. Churchill, in a thick overcoat to keep out the cold sea breeze and wearing a tattered sailor’s cap, looked to Cadogan more like a Breton fisherman than the envoy from the British Empire. Woolton, who had ‘snuck onboard’ Hood with the American pilot, cut a smarter figure, looked anxiously at his watch as he, Cadogan and Woolton trailed behind Churchill as he stalked to the pilot ladder and the waiting launch below.
“Remember, Mr Churchill,” Cadogan said sharply. “No silly alliances. We are not here to hand that tiresome man the Royal Navy and British Army without some firm guarantees.”
Churchill halted suddenly, turning on the spot to regard Cadogan with a mixture of hostility and understanding. Churchill, like Cadogan, firmly believed that the Japanese onslaught through the Far East needed to be met with a resolute British response. Cadogan, Churchill knew, was deeply worried for the fate of the Commonwealth, with Canada and South Africa drifting towards Roosevelt should Britain not respond. But there the agreement between the two men ended. For Cadogan was as worried about American encroachment into British spheres of influence as he was Japanese. And he was determined that not one British ship would fight with the Americans unless firm acceptances of British primacy in the Commonwealth were gained. Woolton, Churchill thought, the reflection making him shift his gaze to the kindly face of the Ambassador, was torn between Cadogan’s sceptical approach and Churchill’s idealism. And so Churchill had pledged to focus his persuasive skills on Woolton.
The Admiral’s launch took the small British delegation swiftly from the high, sheer sides of a British warship to the high, sheer sides of an American one, the USS Arkansas. Absent from the Pacific Fleet during the attacks of the previous December, she was now fitting out for her deployment as the escort for a large convoy to the huge, sprawling, US Navy facilities in Hawaii. Striding up the rickety steps like a small boy, Churchill was touched by the presence of the President and some of his senior officers who assembled to greet their British guests.
“Mr President, here is my letter of presentation from Lords Halifax and Woolton. I am delighted to be here, to take forward the vital work for our two nations.” That Woolton had provided what was essentially a reference of character had touched Churchill, who had been worried by Eden’s warning that the Foreign Office was desperate to “scupper you before you utter a word”.
“Thank you, Mr Churchill. On behalf of the American people I welcome you to the United States of America. You will forgive me, but I have other duties to attend to this afternoon.” Roosevelt seemed distant, preoccupied. The latest intelligence, which had reached HMS Hood just as she was entering American waters, was that the Philippines were under relentless bombardment as the Japanese continued their long campaign against the islands. It was understood that they were consolidating their recently acquired island of Mindoro, easily brushing aside the half-hearted US efforts to retake it. USS Arkansas, and the forces and equipment that she would be escorting, were part of the immense effort of this emerging power. Churchill knew that he had to work quickly.
“Then perhaps, Mr President, as the special representative of a friendly foreign power, I could accompany you on this visit?”
Roosevelt nodded; he realised instantly the power of such an image and it could, he realised, morally bind ever more closely the British to the United States. The two men were led along to the stern of the aging American battleship. Roosevelt’s wheelchair, winched aboard with some difficulty, was brought to him and he sagged into it with relief.
The two men, now alone, stood on the quarterdeck of the Arkansas. In the distance, towards Baltimore, smoke rose from the factories of a nation now energetically rearming. Roosevelt, in a recent radio broadcast that Hood had picked up on her approach to the coast, had exhorted his nation to become the “arsenal of democracy”. Oppressed peoples in the Pacific would be given whatever assistance they required to fight “Imperialist Japan”. Cadogan has bristled at Roosevelt’s emphasis on the ‘Empire’ of Japan, and so Churchill knew that he must lance this particular boil first.
“My dear Mr President, may I call you Franklin?” Roosevelt nodded slightly as Churchill continued. “I listened with interest to your broadcast over the wireless.”
Roosevelt looked at Churchill with interest. “You heard my speech?”
Churchill nodded quickly. “Indeed I did, Franklin, I heard your call for, now what was the term?”
“Self-determination,” Roosevelt said with a hint of fervour. “We want to end the evils of imperialism in the Pacific.”
Churchill knew that he couldn’t prevaricate any further. “And, Mr President, does that apply to the British Empire in the Far East?”
Roosevelt formed a wry smile. “I believe that you Britishers are a decent people, law-abiding and tolerant.” He stopped, as if preventing himself from speaking further.
“But, Mr President, what more? Franklin, if I am to bring the British Empire into this terrible war on the side of America there must be no secrets from us!”
“The European powers have ruled by a world tyranny, compounded of imperialism colonialism and power politics, which violates all political morals and in particular denies the elementary human rights of all peoples to be independent like the United States.”
Churchill closed his eyes. Whoever bloody wins, Yank or Jap, the end will be the same; they all covet our position, he thought sadly. He felt the ‘black dog’ of depression form, and turned to give this American, whom he wanted so dearly to like, a good old-fashioned English Parliamentarian’s response:
“We will not resign ourselves to fighting our utmost to defend India in order, if successful, to be turned out. If that is what is on offer Mr President then the Royal Navy, which risked so much in nineteen thirty-nine in the face of German aggression and American indolence, will not sail to aid your ships.” He jabbed a cigar clenching hand at Roosevelt. “So, in the name of our common ancestry, our glorious shared beliefs, let us go forward together, as allies, not dirty-handed rivals!” Churchill looked about for inspiration. “Bugger it. I am not Neville Chamberlain, I share your views on Japan, and unlike him, I will do something about it.”
Roosevelt nodded, for he agreed with Churchill’s pronouncements about Chamberlain. Chamberlain, at the height of the drama in Europe, had declared the President’s messages as being “half mad”, a declaration that had somehow reached the President’s ear. Roosevelt had not forgotten the insult, and realised how tired he was of fighting everybody. Turning to look at the cluster of British and American officials, he knew how the support of the British Empire and her Commonwealth could hasten the end of the war. And if the United States was in a position to exploit such a victory, to end the unbelievably backward exploitation of India, Ceylon and every other squalid colony, then Roosevelt would knew that he had done well. Nodding, he turned to Churchill.
“Then perhaps, Winston, we could agree the joint text of the Pacific Declaration between us?”
Churchill smiled. He had thought this man weak, but saw the lawyer’s mind working quickly to come to an agreed position. “I’m sure M’Lord Halifax and his Foreign Secretary will do their best to piddle in your soup, yes. There is one other matter, if I may impose further upon you.”
“What is it Mr Churchill?”
“Winston, please, do call me Winston. We must be as one Franklin, as one. To many in Britain, if we pledge our support and join in this war, then there will be untold cost, such pronounced suffering.”
Roosevelt frowned. “That is war.”
“But a huge war, so soon after the last one, and with us still paying for the debts of the Great War.”
Roosevelt smiled at Churchill’s discomfort. “I don’t see how this is a matter for the United States.
“Eight hundred million pounds, Franklin, probably more. If we are to join the war then we must see this debt cancelled.
Roosevelt kept smiling, but felt disappointed. He had heard that Churchill was an idealist, but now the British politician looked like a grubby gangster. John Nance Garner, the sour former Vice President, had gleefully opined to Roosevelt in 1939 that he prayed for the British to default on their war debts; such a move, he had declared, would prevent any further loans. Henry Wallace, the current Vice President, was similarly sceptical after Woolton had quietly suggested to Roosevelt in their discreet meeting that the cancellation of Britain’s Great War debts would be followed by an offer of an alliance to defeat the Japanese. Roosevelt decided to gamble, and to see how far this Englishman could carry his Prime Minister.
“Then if that is the cost, then I must pay.”
[Game Effect] – And so after a short absence I, and this lumbering AAR, return. Essentially, before we even look at whether Britain ought to declare war upon Japan, there are two thorny issues that would stop an Anglo-American alliance. The first, and probably the thorniest, is the Empire. Roosevelt, robbed of some of his more melodramatic outbursts by the lack of a European war, would probably peddle self-determination on the Pacific region. I actually think that is quite clever: it gets the struggling peoples of the DEI, China, Korea, Indochina and potentially India firmly behind FDR and the USA in their quest to free the region from Imperialism. The speech about tyranny and power politics really was spoken by FDR, and Churchill’s response is actually taken from a letter he wrote to the Canadians not long after an American protest at the ongoing survival of the Raj. Essentially the final decision rests with Halifax in London, and both Roosevelt and Churchill know that the Americans will be very careful to limit any guarantees they give to the British Empire in the Pacific. It’s always easy to portray the 1941-1942 period as one in which the clever Brits work their magic with the slower Americans. But it’s not that simple and FDR has so far kept any meaningful protection of the Empire off the table. Agreeing not to say nasty things about your ally’s Empire is one thing, emphatic support for the Raj is quite another.
Bizarrely, (and thanks as ever to Nathan Madien), one thing that America might be more willing to swallow is some sort of fudge over the saga that is Imperial WW1 debts. Garner’s views have been faithfully reported, and I suspect that Wallace, his replacement, might be equally wary of letting the British off with so large a sum, but in the absence of powerful allies FDR might just have let such a waiver go through. I can just picture FDR, having been given the British list of (essentially) demands, and thinking of the US marines preparing to board transports and ship out to fight at Wake, Iwo Jima etc. If then imagined the British-Indian hordes amassed in Burma, not to mention the fairly potent Royal Navy presence in the South China Sea, then I think that he would go for it. America hasn’t had the two years of careful, planned rearming that she had whilst she built up to equip both Britain and herself, and I think that she would be far weaker than she was OTL. All of the above (and blimey I’m starting to write an essay – THANKS A LOT OXFORD!) points me to FDR agreeing to Winston’s request.
El Pip: Agreed, and that mental journey is pretty much what happened to me – I think that in the end Imperial unity will be the telling factor.
Kurt_Steiner: Many thanks, the end is coming, I promise!
Enewald: You’ve been talking to FDR!
Nathan Madien: Picking the comment that interested me the most, I think that a likely successor to Halifax is actually probably Eden, or if the doves dominate then Butler. But a leadership race would be exceptionally bloody as neither side really has enough support. That said, the hawks are gathering their troops and could push Butler aside.
Sir Humphrey: Eden is really key to the story, not Churchill and certainly not Butler (who really only does what Halifax tell him anyway). Halifax knows this, Eden knows this.
Nathan Madien: I like Eden, and rate him highly as a prewar MP (though I’m not convinced by his performance as Churchill’s Foreign Secretary during the war). As a PM he was ill, quite painfully ill, and made short-tempered decisions that ultimately blew-up badly. But if Eisenhower has supported Suez he would be remembered differently.
El Pip: Callaghan, dear God Callaghan has to be the worst. Althought the current incumbent is possibly the nastiest for a long time.
Trekaddict: Both laughably disastrous decisions!
El Pip: Benn, Miliband, Callaghan, Cripps, Brown, my ‘top 4 irritating UK socialists’.
Trekaddict: I cannot bear to even have that man shot in this AAR. He just won’t feature.
Sir Humphrey: Having exchanged views on Eden with you before, I think that your comments are fair.
Kurt_Steiner: The Crimea, WW1, WW2, Suez, to look at that list makes me shiver.
Trekaddict:
Kurt_Steiner:
DonnieBaseball: A good, snappy, explanation of foreign policy!
Sir Humphrey: I think that the whole “get the Israelis to kick-start a war” was far too grubby. And Nasser was a scheming **** as well.
Kurt_Steiner:
Nathan Madien:
El Pip: I have to admit some Nationalisation can work, if it is small scale and not relied upon as essential by the country (and so, then, what’s the point of it?!). But to look at our record on it – more shivering.
Sir Humphrey: She would have just bought shedloads of the stuff. The woman was a bulldozer.
El Pip:
Trekaddict: Ouch.
Who's in charge of Indochina right now? And if the Japanese are, might the liberation of Indochina (in the distant future from now) by the Americans prove to be the start of anti-colonial events in Asia (as they aren't going to give it back to Petain's crew, are they?).
I thought UK did default on its US WWI debt--or did she just stop paying (which I guess is different)?
Even if payments are forthcoming in this time line, would seem a good deal for the US--support of the type the Empire could provide in the Pacific seems well worth what might be as much a paper sacrifice as anything.
Does all seem a bit sordid, but then in the end it is about national self-interest all around.
Even if payments are forthcoming in this time line, would seem a good deal for the US--support of the type the Empire could provide in the Pacific seems well worth what might be as much a paper sacrifice as anything.
Does all seem a bit sordid, but then in the end it is about national self-interest all around.
After reading that update I have a deep desire to set fire to FDR, admittedly I've never liked him much to start with but the shear rank sanctimonious hypocrisy he displayed makes me lust for a wicker man to put him in.
Hell just for that two-faced bilge about "elementary human rights of all peoples" (unless they're black) the man deserves a slow and miserable death. Frankly Churchill should have just pushed him over the edge of the bow and then sworn 'He fell in' if anyone asked.
Hell just for that two-faced bilge about "elementary human rights of all peoples" (unless they're black) the man deserves a slow and miserable death. Frankly Churchill should have just pushed him over the edge of the bow and then sworn 'He fell in' if anyone asked.
Meh. He did what he could, but as Southern Democrats were overrepresented as Committee Chairs (especially in the Senate, IIRC), as they tended to be longer-serving because the South was a defacto one-party state, so there wasn't much he could do. Not that it makes it OK, but it's better than Churchill's record on that kind of thing
End Japanese Imperialism and a new era of free American tolerant Imperialism shall begin?
Fools.
Whatever Britain does, they will lose Asia; be it to Japs, Yanks or locals.
This is the beginning of the end.
Fools.
Whatever Britain does, they will lose Asia; be it to Japs, Yanks or locals.
This is the beginning of the end.
GeneralHannibal makes a good point. Have the Japanese kicked out the French (which is the case if my memory serves me well), or did they signed a treaty granting them bases there? If they conquered it and France did nothing, thats practically Japanese territory now, and Americans can do what they want with Indochina after the war. If Japs have only bases there, its still legaly French territory, and since USA recognizes Petain government as legal French government (I asssume), they would be obliged to turn it back to French (or do nothing at all after defeating Japan, as French administration should still be running the place). Unilateral liberation of Indochina could cause friction between USA and european axis.
Corking update.
Roosey is reading like a total rank bastard, whilst Churchill is not much better, but still you have to cheer him on when he cuts right to the chase, and its not to far to see him, when nobody is looking, kicking Roosey in the nuts whilst taking a leaf from de Sade...
Roosey is reading like a total rank bastard, whilst Churchill is not much better, but still you have to cheer him on when he cuts right to the chase, and its not to far to see him, when nobody is looking, kicking Roosey in the nuts whilst taking a leaf from de Sade...