The Jacky Fisher Mod - BCs, CVs, and Superdreadnoughts

[SpiralPegasus]

The Units FAQ shows battleships, dreadnoughts, (protected) cruisers, heavy (armored) cruisers, destroyers, and torpedo boats. No tin cans with sledgehammers? Time to take up for ol' Jacky Fisher, I see.

Basing off of the FAQ, here's a starting off point:

Battlecruiser:
- Speed 24, Vis 10, Det 2, Bmbrd 3, Gun 16, Def 16

Aircraft / Seaplane Carrier:
- Speed 24, Vis 6, Det 5, Bmbrd 0, Gun 6, Def 14

Superdreadnought (for the really ambitious):
- Speed 22, Vis 12, Det 3, Bmbrd 5, Gun 30, Def 40

More to come once I actually get the game and manual later today.

 

[unmerged(11486)]

The Battlecruiser should probably have similiar attack stats to the super-dreadnought. Not quite as high, but closer than half.

Other then that, this looks good. Are you going to need any help?

Steele

 

[MKSheppard]

Is it actually possible to add new units? Because I read in a
thread that Johan said that factories are hard coded, you can't
make any new ones

 

[SpiralPegasus]

Looks like there's a limited number of unit types too. Ah well, lost for the sake of simplicity.

(Though I'm still a little bewildered trying to understand how you can have both armored and protected cruisers, but not battlecruisers. :/ )

 

[unmerged(11486)]

You might be able to replace one of the other cruiser types with the battlecruisers.

Don't know about the other ships (superdreadnoughts, carriers) though.

Steele

 

[unmerged(22240)]

That stinks..

I cracked open a few books on the heavy ships last night. In fact I registered just for this thread.

Taking British ships as the yardstick, Battlecruisers had roughly the same firepower as the dreadnoughts.

For example, the BC Invincible had 8-12" guns. The BC Lion had 8-13.5".

The majority of the dreadnoughts had 10-12" The newer ones had 10-13.5"

So if they can ever be included, they should be rated less in firepower than the dreads. Not much less though.

The superdreadnoughts of the Queen Elizabeth/Royal Oak class had 8-15"guns. There were 2 15" gunned BCs.

 

[unmerged(15764)]

Originally posted by SpiralPegasus
Looks like there's a limited number of unit types too.

are you sure? that would limit many of our possibilities

 

[unmerged(20324)]

battlecruisers had the firepower of a dreadnought but had the armor of a cruiser. they could outfight anything that could catch them and run when the faced a dreadnought. if you look at the battle of jutland british battlecruisers were crushed when they fought the high seas fleet. german battlecruisers were a little better armored then the british but still could not standup to the grand fleet.

 

[unmerged(3902)]

Actually, what mauled the British battlecruisers at Jutland was not the high seas fleet's BBs. It was the German's own battlecruiser force.

In a sort of prequel to the main event, the two battlecruiser forced slugged it out, much to the disadvantage of the british whose more lightly armored battlecruisers lost heavily against their outnumbered German counterparts.

The problem with the whole BattleCruiser concept is that it didn't ever really explain what the damn thing was supposed to do. It was basically a severly up-gunned cruiser that cost as much as a battleship, but couldn't fight anything heavier than a cruiser.

Doctrine initially called for them to act as advance scouts for the BBs, retreating from combat, but this made funding the BCs a problem. After all, if they were just going to scout and run, why buy a BC when you could do the same job with six far cheaper CLs?

So, more or less to give BC something substantive to do, doctrine changed that they were supposed to "fix" the enemy heavy units if they ran into them so that the main battle fleet could run up and join the party. The problem with this, of course, is that it required the BC to trade shots with BBs, something its wasn't designed to do.

They were a cool idea in the sense that a lightly armored, hard hitting platform always has more "style" than a big, beefy, slow platform like a BB. It gives one the idea that if you could just maneuver it right, your BC "rapier" could somehow outperform your opponents BB "broadsword".

In practise though, it turned out to be more a case of taking a knife to a gunfight.

 

[unmerged(2368)]

If someone were to make an 1898 mod they could remove some of the earlier units to make room for new ones.

I'm not sure adding carriers is a good idea though. It really wasn't until the end of WWI that experiments began with launching planes from ships and not until after the Great War that a ship was modified into a carrier-being even longer until the first purpose built carrier was produced.

 

[unmerged(20242)]

Originally posted by myces2000
battlecruisers had the firepower of a dreadnought but had the armor of a cruiser. they could outfight anything that could catch them and run when the faced a dreadnought. if you look at the battle of jutland british battlecruisers were crushed when they fought the high seas fleet. german battlecruisers were a little better armored then the british but still could not standup to the grand fleet.

The problem with British cruisers prior to 1916-1917 was insufficent deck armor and long gun range, the armor belts was thick enough. When firing at long range the shells come in in a high orbit and hit the deck, rather than the armour belt. At the battle of jutland the brits lost 3 cruisers due to this, they also lost HMS Hood due to this (WW2).

 

[unmerged(3423)]

I seem to remember reading or seeing that the problem the British had was due to the detonation of the explosive shells being to early - they exploded on impact, making big scorch marks on the German ships and only small holes.
The German shells had a delay mechanism so they exploded after penetrating, ripping a big hole in the hull.

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Development

I think battlecruisers really should have been included as part of the naval arms race and from what I'm reading it's rather disappointing that the naval side of the game hasn't been taken very well cared of - the 19th-20th centuries (Victorias time period) was nearly all about command of the seas and Mahan's famous works on it were merely a reflection of the spirit of the age.

I'm thinking that, since cruisers really developed from the idea of commerce raiding vessels (at least thats what my book on Cruisers by Anthony Preston - I think - says) the RAIDING CRUISER unit type could be replaced with Battle Cruiser. Cruisers would then develop earlier but would in reality be the sail powered Alabama type raiders. Then events would up their power and gun power, armor protection, etc to make them the 2nd class and later on Light Cruisers of the 20th Century.

Battlecruisers would develop after Armoured Cruisers and the second to the last generation CAs should actually be semi-battlecruisers of the Bluecher type. A further development would probably be the so-called Large Light Cruisers (Fisher's Follies, the Courageous class) which would be the equivalent of Pocket Battleships theory - not yet battlecruiser capital ships but nearly as large and as powerful.

I'm starting to have second thoughts about getting Vicky already. But maybe if the team from HoI's The Great War can just move their efforts to Victoria I'll take a chance of Vick.

Interesting to see that I'm not the only one disappointed by the lack of Battlecruisers, 2nd generation Dreadnoughts and Super Dreadnoughts

Richmond

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Some thoughts...

This is actually part of another post on Japanese warships and unit names.

I was kinda disappointed to see that Battlecruisers weren't represented. Perhaps the Cruiser Raiders can be changed into these? They represented an important naval development during the Dreadnought era, a capital ship with the offensive power of a battleship but the speed of a cruiser. Not until the next generation Dreadnoughts, the so-called Fast Battleships of the Queen Elizabeth class came along did they become more or less obsolete. DREADNOUGHT battleships (need to qualify this statement) should have incredible armour and armament but not very good torpedo/mine defenses - The few Dreadnoughts lost in combat were through mining or torpedoing - in the two day slugfest at Jutland the only Battleship lost was the Pre-Dreadnought (or in our case BATTLESHIP) Pommern, torpedoed in the guts by a British DD. Even ships like Warspite, Malaya and Konig were pummelled badly but survived - not so the lighter ships. Hope the game either simulates this or can be modified to simulate this!

Last 'wish' on the list - I read somewhere that you can trade money, techs etc. - does this include ships? One of the more lucrative trades of the major maritime powers particularly France, Britain, America and Italy was building advanced warships and then selling those to client states, for example the Peruvian ironclad Huascar, most of the early Japanese navy and the advanced cruiser Esmeralda. Ships were, even more than troops, a gauge of the power of a nation (hence Alfred Thayer Mahan's popularity in this era) and the more capital ships you built, the greater your prestige. Ships like Ships of the Line, Ironclads, Battleships and Dreadnoughts (and Battlecruisers if ever they get included!!) should net you serious amounts of prestige (naturally increasing as you develop more modern ships - like Ships of the Line should give you 5 prestige each, Ironclads maybe 8 prestige each, Battleships like 10 prestige each and Dreadnoughts giving maybe 15 or 20. Battlecruisers would give like 25 - more than anything I think they were prestige ships, the ultimate example being the 'Mighty Hood'. Most were faster and more heavily armed than most other ships in existence even heavy cruisers - case in point, the escape of the German Mediterranean fleet under Souchon in 1914 - they were nearly confronted by Adm Troubridge's four armoured cruisers but the British admiral backed down rather than face the battlecruiser Goeben and her escorting light cruiser Breslau's guns!

There were several 'critical ships' developed during this period and I hope events can be scripted to take account of these 'match ups' - for example the first Ironclad warship, the Gloire was being built in a class of four ships. The event would be for the British and it would offer them the chance to 'Match' the French ship with their own, the HMS Warrior. It would cost probably 1 1/2 to double the amount for a normal ship (money only) but would net them double the prestige. The next ship would be the Confederate Merrimack which would be 'matched' by the USS Monitor. The Peruvian cruiser Esmeralda was also a history changing ship. Then of course the Dreadnought should be a big event and maybe the first one to develop the Dreadnought Tech and build a Dreadnought should get a Double Prestige bonus. The next match up would be HMS Invincible and SMS Moltke for the first battlecruiser and the last match up would probably be SMS Mackensen and the HMS Hood. Is it possible to add workers to your build force so that ships can get finished sooner?

Just some thoughts and hopes...
Richmond

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Jacky Fisher

Speaking of Jacky, does the game have a Jacky Fisher event? Jacky Fisher was famous (or notorious as the case may be) for pushing for the 'Big Gun' battleship (leading of course to the devt of the Dreadnought) and for scrapping all of Britain's older ships. When he became First Sea Lord and built the dreadnought the older sail type ships all went to the scrapyards to be replaced by newer designs.

When you scrap ships in Vicky do the crew and build points (scrap metal or whatever you use) go back to you for reuse? They should! That's the whole point of scrapping ships, so that at least some of the materiel goes back to be used in other ships.

Richmond

 

[unmerged(10168)]

A matter of Prestige

Ships more than anything should bring a nation prestige particularly for the imperial wannabes at this time period. Look at the French, all those horrible looking battleships and cruisers but they had lots of em!

How do you tweak the prestige points in Vicky? Are they hardcoded (hope not!)

Richmond

 

[unmerged(15764)]

yes I agree more focus needs to be put on teh naval side of the game

 

[unmerged(10168)]

Vicky World War 1

Suggestion for a Victoria The Great War (ONLY) scenario

The scenario could use the extant 1881 scenario as a basis, starting in 1881 but removing all events/techs previous to this, which will free up more space for contemporary events and techs making the decisions and consequences more numerous and detailed. Also, starting at this time will remove the need for most sail powered vessels and earlier ships can be converted to give the scenario Battlecruisers or other vessels.

From the start of the naval arms races to the First World War, ships were a measure of a nation's power and any sovereign nation worth its salt would purchase at least one or two 'capital ships' to protect its shores from foreign invasion (a common occurence at this time) and raise its prestige in the eyes of the world. Ship developments for these 'new' ship classes is divided into five 'generations' representing the progression of naval developments from the late 1800's to the post-WW1 era (what if the infamous Washington Treaties hadn't happened).

Vicky Ship Type

Man-Of-War
Battleship - the first battleships, from ironclads to predreadnoughts.


Battleship
Dreadnought - the historic dreadnoughts with possible post-war developments.


Dreadnought
Super Dreadnought - encompassing designs from HMS Agincourt to the WW2 USS Arizona.


Ironclad
Fast Battleship - variants of the QUEEN ELIZABETH class to a hypothetical post-WW2 design.


Commerce Raider
Battlecruiser - from the earliest designs to the post-war LEXINGTONs.


Frigate
Protected Cruiser - scouting cruisers that were popular in the late 19th century.


Cruiser
Cruiser - light cruisers from the tiny BRISTOLS to the HAWKINS and KUMA designs.


Heavy Cruiser
Armoured Cruiser - heavy recce and patrol cruisers to the 'Large Light Cruiser' designs.


Monitor
Monitor - from the Civil War designs to 'panzerschiffe' shore bombardment coastal types.


Submarines
Submarines - from the Holland boats to either the U-Boat patrol subs or the cruiser subs.


Steamer Transport
Steamers - Generic steamers including armed 'Q-Ship' types and fast steamers.


Clipper Transport
Ocean Liners - Generic passenger ships including offensive Armed Merchant Cruiser types.


Destroyers
Destroyers - from early Torpedo boat destroyers to the post-war 'super destroyers'.


Corvettes could perhaps be replaced with 'Gunboats'.

An idea I had was that the last two 'developments' could represent alternate 'schools of thought' which would improve some quality of the ship to the detriment of another - for example the IV Generation submarine is the U-Boat type which would have low gun attack but good torpedo and stealth qualities, while the V Generation Submarine would represent the British and French 'Cruiser Submarine' experiments which would have better gun and speed statistics but poorer visibility and torpedo attacks. The players would then have the option to develop their submarines further or not. Another development choice is the last two generations of the Armoured Cruiser. IV is the wartime design as exemplified by the Scharnhorst or Minotaur classes which are very reliable but certainly not meant to stand up to enemy battleships while V is the British experiment 'Fisher's Follies' the so-called Large Light Cruiser which were virtually battlecruisers but with even less armour and bigger guns (than contemporary battlecruisers). The design ultimately proved unsuccesful and it will be a choice between bigger gun attack values but lower armour and efficiency or a weaker but more balanced ship. Another "choice" will be for the Light Cruiser (Cruiser) types. IV is a "Modern Light Cruiser" exemplified by the Hawkins or Enterprise classes with the biggest light cruiser guns while V is a "Torpedo Light Cruiser" as the Japanese would build during WW2 which sacrifices gun power for a powerful torpedo battery. These 'choices' would be reflected in the Research options while the linear progression of ships would be handled in a more automatic way, dependent more upon advances in propulsion, gunnery and tactical research.

These would allow gamers to give their fleets 'character' and make differentiation between ships of various countries easier as some choose to develop strong torpedo fleets (ships at this time were very poorly protected against torpedoes and other undersea attacks, and the game should reflect this) or pin their hopes on the power of big guns to destroy their opponents before they get within torpedo range.




PROTECTED CRUISER (Frigate) $1,400

I - Big Steam Frigates, sometimes with light armour
Uses steam power but needs sails to conserve coal on long voyages. Moderate endurance.
II - Gun Cruiser (ESMERALDA) with two heavy guns on a full deck
Completely steam powered but poor armour and endurance.
III - Protected Cruiser (DUPUY DE LOME) with thin armour protected deck and belt.
Steam powered with good speed and endurance exemplifying the French commerce raider cruiser doctrine.
IV - 3rd Class Cruiser (PEGASUS) is basically a modernized protected cruiser, little better than
a glorified gunboat, suitable mainly for colonial patrol duties.
V - Scout Cruiser (EMDEN) an up armoured, large protected cruiser with excellent armament and range for
interdicting enemy sea lanes but quite unfit to face ships of larger size or armament.

CRUISER (Cruiser) $2,000

I - 2nd Class Cruiser (BRISTOL) with light armoured decks and numerous light weapons.
Good speed makes them useful for escort or fleet recce duties.
II - Early Light Cruiser (CHATHAM) with uniform gun armament, good seaworthiness and speed.
Better protection and armament makes them useful against commerce raiders.
III - Contemporary Light Cruiser (ARETHUSA) with heavier guns and better protection and a deadly
torpedo battery. Higher survivability and increased lethality make them a deadly opponent.
IV - Modern Light Cruiser (HAWKINS) mounting the heaviest 'light cruiser' guns and boasting 'ultra-fast'
speeds of 30+ knots these are the ultimate commerce raiders and raider hunters. ***
V - Torpedo Light Cruiser (KUMA) are short range scouting cruisers with a heavy torpedo battery for
fleet actions and to act as destroyer leaders. ***

ARMOURED CRUISER (Heavy Cruiser) $3,500

I - Armoured Belt Cruisers (O'HIGGINS) with fully armoured belts and a protective deck plus heavy guns
of 8-inch or larger calibre.
II - 1st Class Cruisers (OLYMPIA) with better armour protection and speed they equip most of the navies of
the late 19th century and are virtually capital ships, battleships being very expensive.
III - Early Armoured Cruisers (GOOD HOPE) with more complete armour protection and better speed they
are the heavy recce arm of the fleet.
IV - Modern Armoured Cruisers (SCHARNHORST) with better fire control and heavier guns they are the flagships
of the colonial squadrons and are the light striking arm of the fleet. ***
V - Large Light Cruisers (COURAGEOUS) armed with the heaviest guns available on the fastest ships possible
these ships are virtually unarmoured and are little better than flagships for the scouting fleet. ***

BATTLECRUISER (Commerce Raider) $20,000

I - Dreadnought Armoured Cruiser (INVINCIBLE) with a battleship's 12-inch guns but an armoured cruiser's
armouring enabling it to fight wounded battleships and destroy enemy armoured cruisers or raiders.
II - Dreadnought Battlecruiser (GOEBEN) with better arrangement of its armaments and even greater speed
this is an improvement on the earliest designs.
III - Battlecruiser (LION) sleek, slender designs mounting bigger guns and somewhat better protection
give the ships greater survivability in a battle-line action.
IV - Super Battlecruiser (HOOD) even larger and better armoured designs taking into account contemporary
experiences make these perhaps the perfect embodiment of the type. ***
V - Heavy Battlecruiser (LEXINGTON) modernized and reconstructed with more adequate internal protection and
heavier armour, these ships lose some speed in exchange for better protection. ***

BATTLESHIP (Man-Of-War) $8,000

I - Ironclads (WARRIOR) the original steam powered armoured frigates that are deadly to contemporaries but soon outclassed
by naval developments throughout the world. They use sails for long sea voyages to conserve coal.
II - Turret Ships (DEVASTATION) are steam powered armoured vessels with massive 'armour-piercing' guns mounted in revolving
turrets capable of fleet actions.
III - Central Battery Ships (MAINE) an improvement on the early turret ships they have their guns in centrally positioned
turrets and are entirely steam powered.
IV - Coastal Defense Battleships (BRANDENBURG) are modern battleships in every sense of the word, armed with heavy guns and
adequately armoured for fleet action but very short ranged, reflecting the dominant school of naval thought.
V - Predreadnoughts (KING EDWARD) the final incarnation of the early battleship they had pairs of heavy guns in fore and aft
turrets with numerous smaller calibre secondary weapons. Faster than former classes they will soon be obsolete.

DREADNOUGHT (Battleship) $15,000

I - 1st Generation (DREADNOUGHT) armed with 11 or 12-inch guns, superb armour protection and great speed.
A generation ahead of all other contemporary battleships these ships outclass all others.
II - 2nd Generation (NEPTUNE) armed with heavy guns with better turret arrangement and superior seakeeping qualities.
Their fighting efficiency is greatly increased over the first generation ships.
III - 3rd Generation (IRON DUKE) armed with heavier guns than the older designs they have better internal protection.
Required for development of SUPER BATTLESHIPS.
IV - 4th Generation (RODNEY) taking into account contemporary naval developments they are better protected against
air and submarine attacks.
V - 5th Generation (HOWE) has better internal protection and more powerful turbines giving it greater speed.
These are the ultimate Dreadnoughts with incredible speed, protection and armament.

SUPER BATTLESHIP (Dreadnought) $21,000

I - 3rd Generation Dreadnought (KING GEORGE V) marked by better internal protection.
Virtually indistinguishable from their contemporaries.
II - Multi-Turret Dreadnought (AGINCOURT) features dreadnought battleships with as many as nine massive
turrets giving it a greatly increased weight of broadside.
III - Triple-Turret Dreadnought (ARIZONA) features new triple gun turrets which provide as heavy a
weight of broadside without the weight of many turrets enabling more protection to be incorporated.
IV - Modern Gun Battleship (HOWE) features excellent internal protection, a massive weight of broadside and
greatly increased speeds of 23+ knots.
V - Super Gun Battleships (YAMATO) uses the heaviest available guns and the most massive armour to
make this a virtually impregnable floating fortress at the cost of potentially greater speed.

FAST BATTLESHIP (Ironclad) $20,000

I - Early Design, experimentation with turbines and engines, approximating the COURAGEOUS class. Use not advised.
II - Warspite design as first constructed. Very good armour and a speed of 24 kts. Not very good torpedo defenses.
III - Reconstructed Warspite (30s) with trunked together funnels, even better armour and armament.
IV - Improved Torpedo Protection against submarines and aerial torpedoes.
V - Super-big guns such as those used by SUPER GUN BATTLESHIPS and new turbines give this unimaginable speed without
sacrificing protection.

MONITOR (Monitor) $6,000

I - Erickson Monitor, the American civil war design and the ships it spawned.
II - Double Turret Monitor, similar to the turret ship but with lower freeboard making it unsuitable for the high seas.
III - Bombardment Monitor, mounting battleship guns, these were meant for shore bombardment.
IV - Super Gun Monitor, mounting the biggest available guns and improved armour for shore assaults
V - Light Monitor, with smaller guns but better range and speed they can be used as 'pocket battleships' for limited
commerce raiding and convoy escort duties.

SUBMARINES (Submarine) $3,000

I - Experimental Submarines (primitive HOLLAND type boats)
II - Coastal Submarines (primitive short range patrol submarines)
III - Improved Coastal Submarines (better armed patrol submarines with slightly longer range)
IV - Undersea-Boats (Medium range patrol submarine effective against ships and merchants - UBOATS)
V - Cruiser Submarines (Medium range patrol submarine with heavy guns for shore bombardment - E CLASS)

STEAMERS (Steamer Transport) $1,200

I - Sail Steamers
II - Steamer Transports
III - Oceanic Steamers
IV - Armed Steamers
V - Fast Steamers

OCEAN LINERS (Clipper Transport) $2,500

I - Fast Mail Steamers
II - Passenger Steamers
III - Passenger Liners
IV - Super Liners
V - Armed Merchant Cruisers

DESTROYER DEVELOPMENTS (Destroyer Attachment) $2,000

I - Torpedo Boat Destroyers
II - Early Destroyers
III - Fleet Destroyers
IV - Flotilla Leaders
V - Super Destroyers

 

[MKSheppard]

Is it actually possible to add new units? Maybe we should try
and get paradox to throw in a bunch of empty unit slots for
us modders in 1.02 that we can use to add
land units, etc

 

[JScott991]

Very ambitious.

But anyone who has played EU2 and HoI knows that this engine does not represent navies accurately. The AI doesn't handle them very well and they are a small part of the game.

Heck, in Victoria as it is right now, you will rarely even see the AI build the unit types that exist no matter how much you mess with their AI file. I can't imagine their difficulty in building new classes.

I do like the idea of giving prestige for each ship built. That would be amazing, if the AI could handle it and navy wasn't overdone.