The issue with habitats in 2.2 and some proposed tweaks.

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GAGA Extrem

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Looking at this from merely the perspective of admin cap feels a bit too limited for my taste. Admin cap is very important early on, but its impact diminishes as your ratio of science production vs. tech cost improves. Not even taking into consideration that late game you can just research repeatables to make it a non-issue.

I am gonna take the numbers as they are shown and here is my take on this: so that planet is better at producing more science per sprawl, but in return you are using several extra building slots and - more importantly - minerals to fuel your science machine. Meanwhile the habitat does merely require basic pop upkeep and scientist CG support. Unless I have a Matter Decompressor, I am probably gonna be better off in the long run by using the Habitats. Although, granted, ideally you'd first fill up all building slots with low-tier labs, so the whole approach might be a bit too drastic for the planet's side.

Plus there are only so many planets that I can settle, while I can build a more or less infinite amount of Habitats to just generate new living space.

I am not convinced.
 
Last edited:

roman566

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The only buff Habitats need right now is being able to build all normal buildings. The 2 housing/6 research district feels rather lame compared to planets that can hold over a hundred researchers if one does not mind the upkeep. It would also level the playing field between slavers who can cheese with Domestic Servants/Livestock and non-slavers who can... do nothing to get more building slots.
 

evilcat

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The specialized habitat districts need to have 3 housing each. So if you want just build bunch of commerce or research you can do it.
Now habitats work, but only is some weird combos like all fortress.
 

Losttruppen

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This is profoundly wrong. Food can be produced on hydroponic farms you CAN build on habitats and which are reasonably efficient. Amenities, energy and CG can be produced on mineral-free basis via trade you also can run from habitats. Furthermore, given small size of habitats, they are efficient hosts for 1-per-planet buildings.

Also, the cost of 3 thousand alloys is fairly low by mid-game as it is merely 2-3 battlecruiser and by that time a reasonable empire shall keep fleet with tens of them.

In theory, the amount of habitats you can keep is mostly defined by alloy upkeep, as everything else they need can be produced on-board.

"Profound" is a bit hyperbolic, my point was you can't build an infinite amount of them as you are limited by the CG and food cost of pops, the alloy cost and upkeep, and upfront influence, not the number of stellar bodies you can build them around. To break even on a 50pop habitat you would need 5 building slots dedicated to hydroponics farms which is the majority of the slots and then where do you get the consumer goods and alloys, and the minerals to supply them?

My point was if you don't have enough planets for the minerals you can't be supporting the alloy costs or CG upkeep, which means a wide empire can build more habitats than a tall empire, but then why would they instead of just getting more planets. The influence is definitely the bigger issue on the sheer number you can build as well, but if you can support as much alloy production as you suggest you are already running away with the game on anything but grand admiral, so why even both with the habitats other than roleplaying.

A trade habitat will not break even on consumer goods using anything but the worst living condition slaves. Hydroponics farms won't support you unless that is the majority of what you build, and you need to rely on planets for the minerals to support CG, alloy, and strategic resource production. You just can't spam habitats like some people are suggesting with a limited number of planets, but that is about the only reason to get habitats when you are limited in planets.
 

karimjebari

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With tech and traditions the housing districts on planets can generate 8 housing, just 2 less than habitats.
Also i have seen people manage to unlock all building slots without using a single district. Keep in mind that this strategy is essentially an exploit and will most likely be patched.

Sure, but habitats have also the added advantage to have 100% habitability for any slave that you can get your hand on.

You can build a lot of them in your home system, so trade doesn't need to be protected. Oh, and you can build lots of awesome planet-unique buildings.

I don't see why this is an exploit. Do you think that servants and livestock should not unlock building slots?
 

GAGA Extrem

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[...]
A trade habitat will not break even on consumer goods using anything but the worst living condition slaves.
[...]
How's so? Even the unmodified 2 TV per clerk is more than enough for self-sufficiency in terms of CGs, and a Habitat can easily get a +50% TV modifier, which means every clerk will produce around 0.75 CGs. That's more than enough to provide high-tier living standards like Social Welfare.
 

Losttruppen

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A Habitat can easily get a +50% TV modifier

I don't know about easily. Stock exchanges are a late rare tech. Where do you get the other 30% from? I'm not saying habitats are useless or can't work, just disputing the claim that you can build "a more or less infinite amount" and if you can you need a lot of minerals to build and support them which require more planets or even later ascension perk choices.
 

GAGA Extrem

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I'd say you'll get another ~20% from Stability via happiness and the remaining ~10% will be a mix of governour, traditions, etc. If you feel fancy you can also use a template with Thrifty pops, but I suppose that is more of a mid game / Gene Ascension thing.

And by "more or less infinite amount" I mean "within the ~300 year time frame of the game". You probably don't want to spam them unless you have a Matter Decompressor, but with the Alloy production buff their upkeep cost has become a lot less of an issue. Given that a single Habitat can provide 120+ TV, you'll even be able to afford to buy the required goods from the market to a certain extend, if necessary.
 

Losttruppen

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Fair, I wasn't accounting for governor levels or stability bonuses as these aren't as evident at a glance, but they are ideal conditions which make for happier pops.

I've been playing life-seeded, 5x habitable worlds so usually end up with my homeworld, one or two planets if I get lucky, an ecumenopolis, and one trade, one research habitat. Anything beyond that and I run too much deficit for the benefit until I can get matter-decompressor, colossus, or gaia terraforming, but that is far past the point I can initially get habitats running. I realize Life-seeded is intended to be challenging, but I feel habitats should in theory be more valuable the fewer planets you have, but you can't support their costs and upkeep without going wider on colonies, and then what is the point besides the niche min-max Fortress style habitats when you can just use more planets. It just seems they are best suited the more planets you colonize, which I don't like as it just makes that snowball bigger rather than helping a taller build compensate for less colony options. Also the fewer planets you have the less trade, which means its harder to support the conversion to CG, where you need that energy for maintenance and market trades.

I would rather halt pop growth than make more habitats just to house my new pops and save the sprawl and upkeep costs to make a bigger, better fleet.
 

Sopbucket

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Habitats still provide a means to expand when your territory or habitability limit your other options, and they still contribute to pop growth. I haven't played with them extensively, but honestly this is enough of a niche for me. They were a little too strong in earlier patches, imo, I'm kind of glad that I don't want them in every single game now.
 

Marek15

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Looking at this from merely the perspective of admin cap feels a bit too limited for my taste. Admin cap is very important early on, but its impact diminishes as your ratio of science production vs. tech cost improves. Not even taking into consideration that late game you can just research repeatables to make it a non-issue.

I am gonna take the numbers as they are shown and here is my take on this: so that planet is better at producing more science per sprawl, but in return you are using several extra building slots and - more importantly - minerals to fuel your science machine. Meanwhile the habitat does merely require basic pop upkeep and scientist CG support. Unless I have a Matter Decompressor, I am probably gonna be better off in the long run by using the Habitats. Although, granted, ideally you'd first fill up all building slots with low-tier labs, so the whole approach might be a bit too drastic for the planet's side.

Plus there are only so many planets that I can settle, while I can build a more or less infinite amount of Habitats to just generate new living space.

I am not convinced.
I must admit i did not factor in the fact going over the admin cap isn't as punishing as before 2.2.
Lets do some more calculations! Tangent incoming.

Oh... oooh... oh no....... they're dead? tall empires are all dead! paradox, what have you done?!

Well i just came to a troubling realization, an empire that completely blows past the admin cap and just grows as big as it can while investing a moderate amount into research will match in tech with a science focused empire trying to keep it's sprawl in check.

Lets compare a "tall empire" with 150 admin cap and 150 sprawl to a "wide empire" with 90 admin cap and 300 sprawl, twice that of the tall empire and 210 points over capacity.
Going 210 points over the admin cap the wide empire receives a +63% science cost penalty.
In order for the wide empire to match the research time of the tall empire it needs to produce 0.815 times as much science/sprawl (1.63/2).
This of course leaves the wide empire with the same science and well over twice the resource production for a fleet.

... I think i have figured out the winning meta for 2.2: devouring swarm + extremely adaptive... time for a new playthrough to see if i'm right.
 

nuyu

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Heres a question: why is housing/work integration so much more efficentwhen taking an existing plannet and plating it in artificial structures, than taking those same artifical structures and wrapping them in life support and environmental controll? I mean I know the doylist reason but whats the whatsonian? Why can we not take the ecumenopolis foundy schematics and just build from those plans, in a habbitat?

Yeah, making Habiats more like Small Ecumenopolis.
 

permeakra

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To break even on a 50pop habitat you would need 5 building slots dedicated to hydroponics farms which is the majority of the slots and then where do you get the consumer goods and alloys, and the minerals to supply them?
Not really. Hydroponic Farm provides 12 food, with 3 food tech available at time they become relevant it is +30%, and a bit later +45% not counting stability and random bonuses. I.e. 16-17 food/farm. so it's 3 slots at most and I'll have some leftovers and I'll have 5 open slots.

CG come from trade districts, so I do not need slots for that.

My point was if you don't have enough planets for the minerals you can't be supporting the alloy costs or CG upkeep, which means a wide empire can build more habitats than a tall empire, but then why would they instead of just getting more planets.
CG are not a limiter. Alloys are, but they are second to influence.
Wide empire cannot build more habitats because it needs to spend all its inlfuence on claims and a lot of its alloys on fleet which it needs to keep much larger than tall empire.

A trade habitat will not break even on consumer goods using anything but the worst living condition slaves.
Have you ever done the math?
CG from trade is viable for stratified economy (preferably xenophiles, a clerk can support 1 specialist or 5 workers or 0.5 rulers) or for shared burden with wide use of droids (0.4 for specialists and rulers, and droids do not use CG and can be used as specialists except for research).
 

Losttruppen

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The pops working these jobs still have food and CG upkeep making them a little less efficient that you say, do they not? My best trade value habitats come out to ~150 TV, which is ~37 consumer goods which just barely covers that habitat for CGs, but leaves it lacking food. Perhaps I was wrong and a perfectly min-maxed habitat can break even for most regular empires but I want to thrive from a 2 ascension perk, 3000 alloy, 200 influence investment, not merely survive.

In the end though, 2.2 requires a constant source of minerals and when you run out of planets to get them from, until you get much further into tech and ascension perk choices you can only support so many habitats before the opportunity cost is not worth allocating the resources away from ships and alloys.

I'm not making this argument from a theoretical stand point. I've tried multiple very tall games in 2.2.3 and you can only build a few habitats of any variety before they aren't worth the investment of your minerals/alloys/influence.
 

Mikhail_Mengsk

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Heres a question: why is housing/work integration so much more efficentwhen taking an existing plannet and plating it in artificial structures, than taking those same artifical structures and wrapping them in life support and environmental controll? I mean I know the doylist reason but whats the whatsonian? Why can we not take the ecumenopolis foundy schematics and just build from those plans, in a habbitat?

Well, game-wise you may be right, but talking exclusively off-game, building on a planet and on an habitat it's extremely different. You can't use the same solutions here and there. The planet foundry doesn't have to generate breathable air, for instance, and may occupy as much surface as it want.

Think about the size of Ecu's districts: you are dividing an ENTIRE planet's surface into 10 to 20 portions. It's immense. Habitats are way smaller.
 

permeakra

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My best trade value habitats come out to ~150 TV, which is ~37 consumer goods which just barely covers that habitat for CGs,
Please, stop talking and do the math. I.e. open the wiki page with living standards spending values, the wiki page with job productivity and do the math.

I did it yesterday. Mineral-tight economy is viable if you are on a tight budget. It DOES require specific builds and it hangs on the energy deficit, but it's viable if you want it.
 

Losttruppen

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I just did the math, trade value divided by 2 gives 0.25 consumer goods. I don't think building multiple 3000 alloy, 200 influence habitats that cost 2 ascension perks are worth 75 energy and breaking even because of how bad sprawl affects energy.

I conceded that I was wrong earlier about this: "A trade habitat will not break even on consumer goods using anything but the worst living condition slaves." Bringing up min-maxed strategies to break even doesn't seem worth the effort of investing in the APs or costs.

My point stands that habitats will at best help support your other planets, not provide an infinite sources of housing/jobs in an efficient way.
 
Last edited:

permeakra

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Bringing up min-maxed strategies to break even doesn't seem worth the effort of investing in the APs or costs.
To put it simply, there isn't much other perks worth investing beyond required ascension path and colossus if you aim for late-game (and mass habitats are late-game) . 8 ascention perks are covered by a neccesary placeholder 1st perk (I usually go with executive vigor), voidborne, master builders, 2 perks of ascension paths, galactic wonder and 2 others. For an empire wanting late-game conquest one of the 2 others AP is probably Colossuss for total war Casus Belly and one random perk for arcology project, xenocompatibility or something like that.

Then influence is spent mostly on megastructures and interstate treaties. But if you are conquering, you don't want treaties, you want vassals at best (and no, you don't do claims with Colossus). And given artificial limit on one wonder being built/upgraded at time, you will swim in unused influence. There isn't much to use it for except for habitats and gates, and you don't need much gates. Even if you run multiple edicts, it won't burn all influence.
 

DrFranknfurter

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I've tried out habitats and found them a little disappointing and mildly annoying. Disappointing because they had a fairly weak output compared to even small planets and annoying because I could relocate 1 pop away every few months for some added micromanagement or halt growth when full, lose the +25% pop growth from the food decision, take a -% total production stability hit and have some of that growth lost when my ecumenopolis hits the immigration cap of 5. So I'd be paying with pop growth twice and total output once for a little less micromanagement (and less energy spent relocating)... and I still needed to relocate robots anyway.

Habitats seem better for wide play and xenophobe slavers than for xenophiles (who struggle to unlock all the building slots while slavers do it easily). That feels a bit strange to me because I'd like a Babylon 5 type station at some point and the 100% habitability seems to encourage egalitarian xenophiles with migration treaties to use them... but they'll be less efficient. It's also very gamey - unlocking building slots with battery farmed livestock put in military strongholds to avoid having to build housing really does seem like an obvious exploit to me. Especially considering habitat military buildings were nerfed/separated once before because they weren't supposed to be as good as planetary ones. It's amusing to imagine the situation in your empire but it is an obvious exploit/design oversight nonetheless. If the extra building slots represent spaces used by the additional workers then the number of chickens shouldn't really influence how many refineries you can build (except indirectly by how many people you can feed). Nor should a habitat open to attack from all sides be more defensible than a planet with underground bunkers shielded by miles of rock.

For the oddity of the current situation picture a cartoon where an empire has a series of habitats each with 5 refineries and it encounters the McDonalds habitat which has 10 refineries instead. They want to learn the secret. They look around, the exact same number of workers (but all employed rather than some unemployed), same number of beds... what could be the difference? What is their secret?
Answer: Thousands of Sapient Chickens under the floors being made into McNuggets! (Bonus points if they each wear a little metal helmet and have a rifle strapped to them to represent the strongholds)

But I can understand it's fun to find a more powerful or efficient way of playing even if it's a bit of a grey area if it's an exploit or intended strategy. In my last game I was filling habitats with livestock to unlock all the buildings very quickly and also filling the Portal Event planet with livestock to unlock several additional portal researcher jobs and using them on other planets for the extra merchant jobs. So I can see how fun and useful it is to pump up your population numbers when you have thresholds to meet. It's a tangent but personally I'd have 0.25 housing using livestock/slaves count as 0.25 people for unlocking buildings, or have them not counted at all if they're working uncapped jobs... or count less based on their living standards - so social welfare unemployed still count as 1 pop but chemical bliss unemployed count as 0 (Not final numbers).

Anyway, I liked the portal research planet because of the planetary feature and the 1 job per x pops mechanic... and livestock/servants are fun because of the uncapped job mechanic making them far more flexible and useful. Habitats aren't fun because they lack unique buildings, have sad districts, have no features and are relatively expensive in terms of time, influence, alloys, perks etc. So after all that rambling, what would I do?

Personally I'd have the following:
1. Pops have less efficient housing useage - all pops cost 1 base housing for all strata (oxygen, life support etc. needed even for livestock/slaves), 0.5 for robots (no life-support needed - also a buff to machine empire habitats and a needed buff to robots/droids/synths).
1.1 Limit the extra sources of housing by making a replacement stronghold with different stats:
"Officer Training Facility provides +1 Cadet Job, +5 naval capacity." Upgrade provides more cadets and a soldier job.
1.2 Carefully consider the balance before adding special housing building. e.g. add an alloy cost to them but increase their housing benefit significantly so you have a choice between added sprawl via housing districts or high expense + upkeep but no sprawl increase via custom made habitation domes.

2. More efficient districts - more jobs per district or scaling jobs. e.g.
Trade districts also add 1 Merchant job per 50 pops.
OR Trade districts also provide +1 Merchant Job (Science Director/Administrator jobs)
OR Trade districts also provide +2 Clerk jobs (Researchers, Leisure jobs)

3. Constructed Features via Decisions. Adds jobs per x pops:
Physics/Society/Engineering Research Hub - 1 Research job of the appropriate type per 20 pops. (Would also scratch the itch of players frustrated by the inability to focus on engineering or physics research - myself included)
Expand habitat - has 3 levels, unlocked by master builders. Each has an influence cost and adds to the district cap.
Features require an initial investment but are permanent and without upkeep costs but lock out other features unless removed via decision.
3.1 OR Add events that would allow you to connect with the habitats a little more - borrow from Babylon 5 with some references to it or to other science fiction habitats. Events could make habitats feel alive and unique, with different paths and outcomes for xenophobes and xenophiles, spiritualists and materialists etc. The end result would be added features like the above idea, just more variable, less reliable and more surprising.

4. Add Habitat specialization - but instead of +5% to researcher jobs like tech planets this uncaps jobs of a type. E.g. A Trade Habitat would then have uncapped clerk jobs, trade districts could then provide smaller numbers of merchants instead of clerk jobs. Needs a decision to confirm the specialization. (Allowing investing heavily in fewer stronger habitats rather than many weak ones i.e. tall instead of wide spamming of habitats).
4.1 OR Allow normal specialization like planets but perhaps give a larger bonus to habitats (+10% instead of +5%). (Mostly just so they get the name in the outliner and a slight boost to output).

5. A cost reduction for Tall play:
Influence and upkeep costs for habitats is increased by empire sprawl +1% per point over. Base influence cost for habitats reduced to 150 and base upkeep reduced to 3 alloys. (Discourages spamming habitats as each additional one will have slightly increased costs but also allows the first habitats to be built sooner and gives a strong incentive for use when under or near to the admin cap.)

6. Unique habitat decisions:
Uses for rare resources (NOT matching the planetary pairings where gasses = science) so:
Exotic gasses boosts civilian trade speed,
Volatile motes boosts science by high energy experimentation and reactions
Crystals boost alloy production via laser enhanced production techniques
(Since they aren't using crystals for Commerce or Gasses for Research some other use for these resources would be interesting... the other option is special buldings but this requires less work/art).