• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
The Storm from the east not feel like debating what I see as an outdated view on the mongol invasion of Europe. Here I try to present an alternate view based on more recent scholarship.

THE INVINCIBLE WARRIORS?
Mongols in contact with the west

A number of times on these forums various forumites have posted subjects dealing with the mongols, usually assuming that their armies were undefeatable and unstoppable and endlessly quoting Giovanni de Plano Carpini over the succession matter.
I am now fed up, and with launch into a small article over the matter.

Turko-Mongols
It is usually assumed that the enormous armies that attacked the Islamic lands and Europe in the 13th century were purely ”Mongol”. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The mongol armies were, by the time they arrived in force in the west, a polyglot collection of steppe people, the predominant one being Turks of different tribes and clans. This can easily be seen in personal and family names: Gemaybek, Toktamish and Kitbuka are all turkish names, to name but three. The egyptian chronicler Ibn-Wasel says of the Mamluk defeat of the mongol armies in 1260-61 that ”they were defeated by their own kin”, as most of the Mamluk slave-soldiers were of turkish origin.
This habit of picking up defeated nomad people along the way is characteristic of steppe nomad warfare and could also be seen in the Hunnish empire. It is likely that less than 20% of the main armies of the invasion of the 1240s were from the mongolian steppes. All these people fought in approximately the same way as the mongols and needed minimal retraining to be incorporated into the mongol army.

The superior bows
A lot have been said of mongol and steppe people recurved composite bows, of whom the best quality was made from horn, sinews and bone. This was the traditional steppe bow, and its construction from animal parts is a cause of the lack of good bowwood, like yew or ash. Some novelties appeared in the period of mongol expansion but basically the construction was the same as before. The surviving examples, from grave-finds, are usually rather small.
This type of bow is easily drawn until one reaches the point of repressure, when the draw is about equal to most other bows of similar strength. Thus the maximum draw of the composite recurved is seldom greater than non-recurved bows, but the bow is less strenous to draw initially. In the west, recurved composite bows of wood had been used at least since the early 12th century, imported from the orient. Some sources also put recurved bows in the hands of the Franks after their defeat of the Magyars. Their main advantage was seen as horseman’s bows. Yew longbows with a pull of up to 140 pounds have been found in germanic graves as early as 300 AD, so the composite bows and the western longbow(NOT an english or welsh invention) were quite equal in power. The early mongols seemed to have lacked a characteristically western arrowhead, however: bodkin armour-piercing arrowheads do not appear in grave finds and are never mentioned by chroniclers.

The undefeatable tactics
Mongol tactics were quite varied, but the main focus was, as with all steppe nomads and their settled cousins (like many of the turkish military class in the Levant) they relied heavily on horse-archery. Close combat was not shunned, but a wearing down of the opponent was most often implemented first. The idea that the mongols implemented revolutionary new tactics is quite flawed. The famed hunting expeditions used by the Khans to train their armies were not a mongol innovation but widely practiced in the turkish areas and in a different form in the islamic territories and the christian west(quite a few books of military trumpet signals meant to control the hunters during the hunt has survived, showing a quite complicated system of military signaling in the medieval west), though the mongols greatly increased the scale and applied the principle to strategy:-The innovation initiated by the mongol empire was its ”timetable system” in which the army leaders were required to convene at spesific points at spesific times to deal with an assumed threat – preplanned confrontations with enemy forces, until which the different units were pretty much left to themselves.

First contact
Europe’s first contact with the Mongol came when the Köten, the Khan of the western Quipchak turk tribe called the Cumans or Polovtsii, old enemies/allies/pests of the russians, appeared at the court of Mstislav Mstlislavich of Galicia and requested alliance, in 1223. After initial successes against the mongol force under Jebei and Sübodai, the russian alliance and the Polovtsii are annihilated while crossing the Kalka river. After this the mongol army turns back after sacking Novgorod Svyatopolch and attacks the Volga Bulgars on orders from the Great Khan. Jebei and Sübodai are defeated by the Bulgars while crossing the river Volga but manage to escape with most of their army. After this they travel farther east and smash their way back home through the Quangli Turks.

Full-Scale invasion
In 1237 the mongols return. The russian princes offered no concerted resistance and were defeated piecemeal by the new forces. The Polovtsii were also attacked, and the tribe emigrated to Hungary. The hungarian king Bela IV accepted their offer of conversion and settlement, but the Polovtsii, as a large, homogenous group of nomads, were not well received by the Hungarians overall and friction between the two peoples was common. This eventually led to the Polovtsii leaving Hungary just as the mongols were advancing on king Bela’s kingdom.

In 1240 Kiev, the principle russian city, fell to the mongols who were taking their time subduing russia. After this the mongol army under Batu turned toward Hungary. Splitting into three sections, on march 22 they took an unprepared Cracow after defeating king Boleslaw IV of Poland with elements of the polish army at Chmielmik. The northern flank under Orda entered Schlesien, who were allied with the hungarians. They are harried by Duke Mieczyslaw of Opole, who did not reach Chmelmik in time, while retreating toward Duke Henry II of Schlesien’s forces. Duke Henry II of Schlesien met the mongol north flank at Legnica with the poles who could not make it to Chmelmik, but outnumbered by Orda’s forces and seriously disorganized due to the polish refugees, the battle ended with the death of Henry and the fall of Legnica. Jan Dlugoz’ annals claim the master of the prussian Order also falls at Legnica, but this is not mentioned in the Livonian Rhyme-Chronicle and indeed the master, Henrich von Weide, lives happily until 1246(according to his grave tablet and the Chronicle), so it’s probably apocryphal. Bad scholarship and trusting Dlugoz’ too much has led to an army of the Teutonic Knights being present at Legnica but the order’s own records do not report this – and they are usually reliable. After this the northern flank turns south, avoiding Bohemia, where king Wenceslas has mobilized his army and guards the border without attacking. An small border clash at the austrian borders also takes place, but the northern flank push on, avoiding battle.

The southern flank pushed through the Carpathians while the central army crept toward Bela’s army at a snail’s pace to give the others time to move on. In May the central army broke the Hungarian defenses led by Palatin Denes at the pass of Verecke and approached Pest. It was at this time that the Cumans broke with Bela and turned south, fighting Hungarian reinforcements while pushing their way toward Bulgaria.
The mongol flanks could not reach Pest in time to meet Bela’s armies, so Batu had to engage the king’s forces with the central column alone. On the 11th of april he conducted a surprise attack, perhaps under the cover of night and broke the Hungarian army, but took serious casaulties, as Giovannia de Plano Carpini was personally told when visiting Batu’s camp in 1245. Bela fled and no organized resistance remained east of the Danube. King Konrad IV, son of Emperor Frederick II, mustered his forces and awaited a mongol foray into Austria, which never came. In february 1242 the last elements of the Hungarian army was destroyed by the mongols when crossing the frozen Danube. Bela fled again and while pursued, was not taken. For two months the mongols roamed Hungary and raided Dalmatia and Croatia. After this Batu evacuated Hungary(through Serbia), completing the evacuation in May, and sent his horses for grazing on the russian steppe. He settled down on the southern russian steppe. It is interesting to note that the Danube is the line that marks the end of the eurasian steppe in western europe – the area where steppe empires traditionally have their strength due to being able to replenish their horse herds.

Giovanni de Plano Carpini claims that Ogodei’s death led Batu to abandon his attack and go back to nurture his political ambition. This also fits nicely in with God striking Ogodei down to save his flock. However, Batu kept out of the succession debate and did not go to the elective quriltay in 1246. He also supported Guyuk Khan heartily after his election and seems not to have aspired to Great Khanhood(to which he was not entitled). It is likely that the evacuation of Hungary was carried out because the horses needed grazing and the hungarian plain had been overgrazed by the quite impressive array of horses brought by the invasion force. This coincides nicely with the mongol and steppe people habit of quitting campaigns in the spring to be able to replenish the vital horse herds supporting the army.

The mongols fought two major battles against central european powers during their invasion. The first one at Legnica was against Henry’s army and was succesfull in achieving some degree of surprise due to the mishmash nature of the Duke’s force. It did lead to the northern army not making the rendesvouz, however, despite avoiding battle with the austrians and Wencelas. The second is the attack on the Hungarian camp near Pest outnumbering king Bela’s army while still suffering serious casaulties. Both these victories come about because the Mongols are so much more strategically mobile and flexible than their opponents: the fighting itself seems fairly well-matched, especially at Pest.

No serious Mongol invasion of central or western europe would occur after this. The only time such plans are mentioned in the sources(apart from mongol bravado in front of envoys and such) is Berke Khan’s offer of alliance to Bela IV in 1262(back in place as king of Hungary) asking for a fifth of his army to join him in an attack on the west. This idea eventually petered out, as Berke reprioritized his aims and eventually died in 1267. Small-scale raids into Volhynia and Galacia were repelled after trashing up the countryside in the 1260s and 1270s, and the pagan Lithuanians also tangled with mongol forces in the 1260s, but it was clear that the mongols had no more interest in attacking the west. A quite different idea begins to appear, however.

Allies against the moslems?
After smashing the Khwarasman turks in eastern persia and steamrolling russia, another mongol army under Hulagu had led to the fall of Baghdad in 1258 and the murder of the incompetent caliph Al-Mutassim, and after the fall of Halep in 1259 and Aleppo and Damaskus in 1260, the mongols have broken into the Levant and made contact with the crusading states there. The situation was similar to Russia: the various cities and kingdoms were independent, disorganized and bickered between themselves and with the crusader kingdoms in the Levant. Some alliances between armenians, Outremer Franks and the mongols appear during this time, though not all the franks support the mongols(whose brutality they find off-putting), especially not in Palestine. However, the Mamluk soldiers of Egypt break the mongol invasion force at the first battle of Homs in 1260 and Ain Jalut later the same year and kill Hulagu’s general Kitbuka. While suffering a few defeats of their own, the Mamluks repeat these successes at Euphrates in 1272, Abulustayn in 1277, second Homs in 1281, and Wadi al-Khaznadar in 1299. The mongols might have had supply problems during their campaigns in Syria, but they were, overall, defeated strategically by the Mamluks and their allies.

From this time, an impressive amount of diplomatic correspondence between the Il-Khanate, Latin and Greek Byzantium and the Latin West is preserved. While Islamic, the Il-Khanate was in bitter conflict not only with the Golden Horde to the north, whose leaders also converted to islam and thus ensured that no real integration between them and their russian orthodox subjects could occur (something that would one day in the future ensure them ”special” treatment by the Tsarist Russia), but especially bitter feeling were reserved for the the Syrian and Egyptian Mamluks. Christian Armenians and Outremer Franks had been hopping from side to side in this conflict for some time, but in 1260 the Patriarch(later Pope Urban IV) of Jerusalem started corresponding with Hulagu Khan regarding joint action against the Mamluks.

The northern crusader states(especially Antioch) were also postive toward such ideas because their support of the 1258-60 invasion had led to Sultan Baybars torching their territories repeatedly in 1260. The effort petered out, but in 1266 Abagha Khan, Hulagu’s successor, offered to Pope Clement IV to invade the islamic Levant with 200 000 horse from the east and 100 000 more to join a christian expediton that was to disembark in Armenia. He also offered to turn all the captured cities over to the Latins. Whether or not this was a realalistic idea, the Il-Khanate’s main objective at this point, besides their endless struggles with the Golden Horde and bickering over trade with the Yüan, was smashing the Mamluks, with the very Mongol obsession with destroying the foes who had humbled them utterly.
The alliance proposals from the Il-Khanate to the west was resented by the Golden Horde, who efficiently torpedoed quite a few agreements ; and Berke allied with the Mamluks. The mongol world in the west was not solidly split.

New offers of alliance came in in the 1270s and 1280s and correspondence between the west’s monarchs and the mongol rulers of persia continued. The planned grand alliance never came about; the westerners were sceptical toward the mongols and disliked their haughty attitude, and their main mediterranean shipping contractors, the Venetians, were now much less positive toward the idea of ferrying crusaders across the Mediterranean as the moslems were quite receptive to trade at this point. After the fall of Acre in 1291 it was pretty obvious that the west would not be able to support the Il-Khans directly against the Mamluks and alliance proposals died down.

In 1305 Philip the Fair received a letter(in Mongolian) from Oljeitu, the new Il-Khan, where he happily informed him that the descendants of Chinggis kaghan had achieved peace over the world and linked the postal stations of the different mongol empires. He further advised Philip, whom he adressed as the king of the west, to achieve the same kind of peace all over his realm. Philip did not, to my knowledge, comment on this.
This eternal peace between the mongol descendant khanates lasted only a few years and the Il-Khanate fell periodically into anarchy while the Golden Horde wasn’t so stable either. Intercine warfare kept going until Timur put an end to most of it in the late 14th century, but Timurs ambitions lay to the east. The western-mongol alliance was never to be.

Conclusion and afterword
Clearly, defeating the mongols militarily was difficult but not impossible. The fact that so few battles actually happened during tht 1240s invasion makes it difficult to theorize over this, however. Western units defeating mongols happened several times during vanguard skirmishes and the Mamluks managed, with a military technique that focused not only upon horse archery but also on western-style charges by the spahi successors, to defeat the Il-Khanates troops on numerous occasions and keep the mongols out of the Levant.
It also seems like the mongols, apart from possibly Berke(if he was serious) had no real intention of going further west. Unlike their Yüan cousins the Golden Horde and Il-Khanate were quite happy dominating the steppes – and after defeating the Hungarians they regarded that territory as subject to them(even if they never actually submitted). Peaceful contact and correspondence with the christian west and Byzantium was quite frequent in regards to the Il-Khanate, and the Golden Horde (as the poorer and smaller western khanate) spent its energies against its brother khanates and in succesion struggles.


Primary sources, chroniclers:
Al-Maqrizi, Cairo
Ibn-Wazel, Damietta
Giovanni de Plano Carpini
The Livonian Rhyme – Chronicle(unattributed)
Jan Dlugoz
Codex Comanicus(unattributed)
The Primary Chronicle of Novgorod(unattributed)
Matthew Paris
The secret history of the mongols(unattributed – not complete edition)
Marco Polo’s Il Millione

Historians, modern(various publications).
Erik Christensen, Dennis Sinor, A.P. Martinez, Erik Hildinger, Reuven Amitai-Preiss, David Nicolle, R.A. Rasovski, John Chambers, A.N. Kirpichnikov, Amin Malouf

Some net searches
 

unmerged(17569)

Second Lieutenant
Jun 11, 2003
130
0
Visit site
Invincible... by no means. As brittle as the Mongol leadership and government was... it was a miracle that they lasted as long in reality.

My understanding is that the game is an alternate history (everyone is being up-front about this with CK... :D ) from the start. A variable Mongol empire is only natural.

I suspect that the reason the play-able countries are limited to 20... is to devote resources to developing the AI for this alternate universe.
 

unmerged(485)

Advocatus Sancti Sepulcri
Nov 24, 2000
9.971
0
Originally posted by Che Gorilla
..................
I suspect that the reason the play-able countries are limited to 20...

There are more than twice that many dynasties to play. :)
 

unmerged(12746)

Yon Dan
Dec 15, 2002
1.386
0
Visit site
Great post Endre, I dont think anyone thinks the mongols were invinsable but at the time in the 1240's a lot of people did. You listed many specifc facts about the mongols thier methods and equipment which was great but in your piece you didnt discuss with the same detail what the effects of the mongol victories were.

In my view, as it pertains to the game thats crucial. CK is a period piece and in so the mongols have to have the "mystique" of invincibility. The Mongol advance West was right in the middle of the planning of a 6th crusade, Innocent wanted to relieve Acre and take control of JEruselam once and for all.

That crusade didnt happen because of the Mongol advance Westward. Given the religous, social and political climate needed to create a crusade its notable it was canceled due to one military threat. The Christian nations -feared- the mongols and believed they were superior militarily, proven in the invasion of Georgia in 1245 when a very fit Christian army was defeated soundly.

Your tactics and thier application are right on, the Mongols were horse archers and would never have been able to handle a concerted heavy calvary charge, but they never faced one head on. The "would they" have question is what I think most are intriqued by, but we dont have historical data to base an ingame conclusion.

We have all the facts you listed about the Mongol war machine, but you have to add in the -mystique- factor and what Western Europe believed. If you put them together it dosent make them invincable, but it makes them closer to invincible then any other force at the time. In addition Europe was fairly isolated at the time Asia hadnt opened up to them and the populace was awash with rumor and myth about the tartars.

Your post was excellent, I loved it brought me back a few years but it lacked the phsycological impact on Europe with the fall of Kiev and invasion into Hungary. They believed the Mongols were invincible, at least a lot of them did and thats what has to get into the game, not having an invincible army but some penalty on attributes (morale?) or something that gives the Mongol army in the game an -air- of invincibility.

There is an excellent book about the Mongol effects on Europe, "the devils horsemen" by James Chambers, I highly recommend it.
 

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
Thank you, Odin1970. It's a edited, translated and shortened version of another article I wrote a few years back. The reason it's so one-sided(and why I don't go too much into the mongols strong points) is that it is a response to Pontiac's refusal to discuss the issue in his "Storm from the East" thread after stating the invincibility issue as fact.

The battle you are referring to must be the battle of Nisibis, with the orthodox armenians. At this point Subotai was allied with Jerusalem!

The medieval invincibility myth, while certainly possessing a crore of truth, mostly(but not entirely) comes from the russian sources. Plano Carpini, Rubruck, Dlugosz and the Livonian Rhyme-Chronicle does not share that view. Neither did Innocent IV, though his half-baked scheme to convert the Volhynian prince to Catholisism and launch a crusade never got off the ground(the Teutonic Knights strongly opposed it, as did the poles - it interfered with their internal politics). It is important tor remember that in the 13th century, the "schismatics" orthodox hated the "latin" catholics and vice verca with a fervor approaching that they both felt about the muslims...the fall of russia was seen as a good thing by many in the latin west.

I have Chambers(I have a mighty library on medieval warfare, personal combat and culture:) ). He has his strong points and weak points. Strong points is his excellent knowledge of asiatic history. His overall weakest point is his lack of knowledge on material culture: even though he professes to be an expert on medieval weapons and armour he obviously lacks even the basics. Let me share with you a little gem from the armourarchive:

"A couple of years ago I saw this chap on a History/ Discovery Channel program called "Decisive Weapons: Samurai sword" (made by the BBC IIRC), in the course of which IMHO Chambers' displayed an astounding level of ignorance on the matter of combat with swords. Why on earth he was even consulted on the matter is beyond me, since IMO he clearly was out of his depth.

Picking up a broad, fullered (looked to be a DT) medieval arming sword, he proceeded to assert that it was "quite heavy", useless for cutting (you would just bludgeon him), and that despite the broad blade, wide fuller and short point it was "essentially a thrusting weapon"!! I felt downright nauseous watching him poke the air while holding this broad cleaving blade in a limp ineffectual grip.

The katana of course, was king in the comparison, because you could "parry with it" which apparently you couldn't do with any medieval swords!!! The concept of shields seems to have eluded him as well, because he asserted the best way for a European "crusader" to deal with a blow (since he stupidly left his shield at home, apparently can't void and can't parry with his sword) was to DUCK HIS HEAD DOWN INTO THE PATH OF THE BLOW and hope his helmet was strong enough to stop it!!! I kid you not"

:D :D :D '
 

ashbery76

Field Marshal
106 Badges
Oct 31, 2000
3.392
2.703
Visit site
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad

The katana of course, was king in the comparison, because you could "parry with it"

Heh, as if you could stand there in a medievil style battle parrying, you would be sliced in 2 by the bigger,longer,more powerfull european blade..:p
 

unmerged(12746)

Yon Dan
Dec 15, 2002
1.386
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
Thank you, Odin1970. It's a edited, translated and shortened version of another article I wrote a few years back. The reason it's so one-sided(and why I don't go too much into the mongols strong points) is that it is a response to Pontiac's refusal to discuss the issue in his "Storm from the East" thread after stating the invincibility issue as fact.

The battle you are referring to must be the battle of Nisibis, with the orthodox armenians. At this point Subotai was allied with Jerusalem!

The medieval invincibility myth, while certainly possessing a crore of truth, mostly(but not entirely) comes from the russian sources. Plano Carpini, Rubruck, Dlugosz and the Livonian Rhyme-Chronicle does not share that view. Neither did Innocent IV, though his half-baked scheme to convert the Volhynian prince to Catholisism and launch a crusade never got off the ground(the Teutonic Knights strongly opposed it, as did the poles - it interfered with their internal politics). It is important tor remember that in the 13th century, the "schismatics" orthodox hated the "latin" catholics and vice verca with a fervor approaching that they both felt about the muslims...the fall of russia was seen as a good thing by many in the latin west.

I have Chambers(I have a mighty library on medieval warfare, personal combat and culture:) ). He has his strong points and weak points. Strong points is his excellent knowledge of asiatic history. His overall weakest point is his lack of knowledge on material culture: even though he professes to be an expert on medieval weapons and armour he obviously lacks even the basics. Let me share with you a little gem from the armourarchive:

"A couple of years ago I saw this chap on a History/ Discovery Channel program called "Decisive Weapons: Samurai sword" (made by the BBC IIRC), in the course of which IMHO Chambers' displayed an astounding level of ignorance on the matter of combat with swords. Why on earth he was even consulted on the matter is beyond me, since IMO he clearly was out of his depth.

Picking up a broad, fullered (looked to be a DT) medieval arming sword, he proceeded to assert that it was "quite heavy", useless for cutting (you would just bludgeon him), and that despite the broad blade, wide fuller and short point it was "essentially a thrusting weapon"!! I felt downright nauseous watching him poke the air while holding this broad cleaving blade in a limp ineffectual grip.

The katana of course, was king in the comparison, because you could "parry with it" which apparently you couldn't do with any medieval swords!!! The concept of shields seems to have eluded him as well, because he asserted the best way for a European "crusader" to deal with a blow (since he stupidly left his shield at home, apparently can't void and can't parry with his sword) was to DUCK HIS HEAD DOWN INTO THE PATH OF THE BLOW and hope his helmet was strong enough to stop it!!! I kid you not"

:D :D :D '

Hey Endre,

I have read and wrote a little on the Mongols as well, clearly your research and knowledge surpasses mine. However I have done enough to speak somewhat intelligently on the subject, My books are at home but the book I have on Plano is a book called "Mission to Asia" I cant remember the author I will post it later if you want the reference. After reading it I was left with the impression that infact Inocent indeed was fearful of the Mongols and thier military abilities. Perhaps not to the point of invincible but certainly when the Hungarian calvalry fell every Christian king took note and pope.

So with out my reference material handy I cant produce quotes so will end that vein of the post for now. My question to you is how should the -mystique- of the mongols be handled in the game? You and I agree they arent invincible, but placing myself back in that time and being a commander of an army and knowing the rep of the Mongol Horde my tactics might change.

As to in game application I am of the opinion the Mongols should have an additional attack/morale bonus over Christian armies for the -mystique- factor alone. I am curious as to you opinion on this and if you think it should be in at all.

Regards,

Odin
 

crazy canuck

Great Canadian Hero
13 Badges
Nov 15, 2002
1.206
0
Visit site
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
Thanks for taking the time to post your article.

It seems to me that while you take issue with the views of some as to the invinciblity of the Mongol army the points you make are not that different.

The main reason for the Mongols not pushing further east appears to have been a lack of political cohesion. I take your point that when we use the term Mongol during this time period we are really refering to a large subjugated population with a ruling Mongol elite but I think that reinforces the point.

Had the Mongols had the political will and cohesion to press West it appears that there would be little the West could have done about it.

What the long term impact of such an invasion would be is interesting to speculate about but denying that the Mongols had the military capacity to do so seems to miss the point.

In game terms I agree with Odin - there seems to have been a kind of hysteria created by having an army come so close to the Western kingdoms and the fall of Kiev seems to have been a large psychological blow.

I forget the exact chronology but isn't that the time that figure of Prester John was created to give the Western kingdoms some hope that they were not alone?

I also think that the Mongol invasions has to be largely event based. There has to be some mechanism to mirror the disinterest the Mongols showed in the West subsequent to their initial invasions of Hungary.
 

unmerged(12746)

Yon Dan
Dec 15, 2002
1.386
0
Visit site
Originally posted by crazy canuck
Thanks for taking the time to post your article.

It seems to me that while you take issue with the views of some as to the invinciblity of the Mongol army the points you make are not that different.

The main reason for the Mongols not pushing further east appears to have been a lack of political cohesion. I take your point that when we use the term Mongol during this time period we are really refering to a large subjugated population with a ruling Mongol elite but I think that reinforces the point.

Had the Mongols had the political will and cohesion to press West it appears that there would be little the West could have done about it.

What the long term impact of such an invasion would be is interesting to speculate about but denying that the Mongols had the military capacity to do so seems to miss the point.

In game terms I agree with Odin - there seems to have been a kind of hysteria created by having an army come so close to the Western kingdoms and the fall of Kiev seems to have been a large psychological blow.

I forget the exact chronology but isn't that the time that figure of Prester John was created to give the Western kingdoms some hope that they were not alone?

I also think that the Mongol invasions has to be largely event based. There has to be some mechanism to mirror the disinterest the Mongols showed in the West subsequent to their initial invasions of Hungary.

Im looking forward to Endre furthing his posts here on this issue, I know you addressed him directly but I wanted to take a moment to chat a bit on his article.

When your doing research its hard to remain objective, one of the ways you do that is recite facts and transcribe them. Mongol military units, weapons types, composition of units those are all fairly well established facts. As I reread his post I didnt leave it with a sense Endre believed or disbelieved the Mongols were invincible. I was left with a sense of an academic reply and with a tone of "they were only human". We have the benefit of history to recite these facts and look back and say that "A,B,or C" could have worked, endre's posts illistrates that pretty well as you have a nice factual based assesment of the Mongols of the 1240 invasion into Europe.

In reality CC it was thier political cohesion that required the Quilarty (spelling) the election of the great Khan, although tradition, was a binding political contract with heirs. That political cohesion is responsible for the pull back, I have yet to read anything that sways me from that view other then the spotty support from Russian vassals and worries over supply, in my readings and studies the political upheaval in Karakorum after Ogodei's death was the main reason Europe wasnt invaded, at least why Vienna wasnt seiged.

I agree with you here CC that the example of prester john was a christian attempt to explain how the Mongols were successful in thier destruction of Persia. A myth was envoked to ease fears, a long standing european tradition. I am really intrested to see how Endre thinks the Mongols should be represented in the game as a force, if any special attribute should be given. I am also hoping that Sergei sees this and gives an indication of the Mongol Hordes will be in at all, and if so how?
 

Pontiac

First Lieutenant
56 Badges
Sep 18, 2000
243
4
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
it is a response to Pontiac's refusal to discuss the issue in his "Storm from the East" thread after stating the invincibility issue as fact.

The above seems to reflect an inflation and inattention to detail that no doubt infects all of his subsequent postings. I fear this is the fate of all enamered with revisionist history.

My initial thread "Storm from the East's" intent was to hear opinions on how the Mongols would be presented in CK. It was not a request for historical analysis but a chance for opinions on how to format the Mongols in the game. Even so, nowhere is there a claim to Mongol invincibility. Rather, the position assumed was that the West would not be able to withstand a full out Mongol invasion. Whether the Mongol's advance into Western Europe in the 1240's constitutes such an invasion is an open question.

The post that begins this thread covers a number of points. Some of these points are rather mundane, others less so, but all in all there is an argumenative stance assumed that blinds its author on a number of levels. These errors will be pointed out in the post that follows (so as to avoid long meandering posts).
 
Last edited:

Pontiac

First Lieutenant
56 Badges
Sep 18, 2000
243
4
Visit site
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • 500k Club
Turko-Mongols:

That the Mongol forces were a mixture of different Steppe peoples is a well known position. This has never been in dispute.

Bows:

The recurve-composite bows commonly used in the East have been tested and shown to have a firing range of 300M. Further, the typical Mongol quiver held 60 arrows of various types for different conditions.


Tactics:

The key here is not just that the Horde employed a sophisticated array of tactics and strategy, but that the West had no comparible sense for the "art of war" to oppose them.

Eastern Europe bordering on the Steppe was in the best position to understand the method of war most commonly used by nomadic peoples and to counter it. When the Mongols came, the Princes of Eastern Europe failed.

Farther to the West, Europe had developed a distinct concept of war. This view revolved around the personal valor of the knight and the power of the charge. This singlness of mindset is seen displayed over and over: Courtrai (1302), Aljubarrota (1385), Agincourt (1415) serve as examples. In each of the three referenced cases the charge of heavy horse was a dismal failure. Even so, the environment that allowed this mind set to take root and become the preferred tactic did see some success against other like minded forces. What is telling however, is the West's almost complete inability to adapt to the fighting methods of non-Western peoples. Hattin (1187), Mansura (1250), Nicopolis (1396) in each case, the same tired tactic of charge was applied with disastrous effect. Even in Richard I's limited succuss at Arsuf (1191) the illdiscipine of the troops under him in charging too early kept the victory from being decisive as the main Muslim force was able to retreat. The West was ill-prepared for a disciplined force keen at adaption such as the Mongols

To further illustrate the gap in fighting standards the battles of Leignitz and Mohi will be presented.

Leignitz:

In 1241 when the Mongols moved against Western Europe, after King Bela of Hungry rejected Mongol envoys and continued to harbor the Cumans, their force was around 70,000 men. The Mongol army was divided into two unequal groups. The Northern Force was composed of two toumans (around 20,000 men). This group moved into Poland along the North side of the Carpathian Mts. This force was to protect the Northern flank of the main army as it drove into Hungry. To oppose the Mongols in Poland was Henry II of Silesia with some 30,000 troops. A Bohemian force of another 50,000 was moving North and was expected to join Henry in Poland. Henry moved South of Leignitz toward Jawor to meet up with King Wenceslos of Bohemia. Unfortunately, the Mongols, aware of the two armies positions, and having already won a series of smaller engagements intercepted Henry's force while the Bohemian army was still two days away.

Henry drew up his army into four groups of unequal size. The two Mongol toumans were divided along groups of ten. Each division of ten having a commander. Mongol tactical movement was done by way of flags and the initial position was in a loose formation. Henry's first division charged the Mongols. The Mongols fell back and surrounded the group of knights and loosed their arrows into their ranks. The first group of knights unable to engage or get any support broke ranks and fled back toward their original lines. Seeing this the second and third divisions of Henry's army charged forward. At this, the Mongol line appeared to break and fall into a retreat. Part of the Polish charge started to falter and retire back. Noting the change, Henry then led his own group of knights into a charge. They were able to engage parts of the Mongol force. As the fighting intensified the Mongol standard bearer appeared to join the other parts of the Mongol force in flight and a general pursuit began. Keen on victory, the knights became strewn out and disorganized. It was then the pursuing knights discovered hidden Mongols awaiting them in ambush. At this point, the retreating Mongol groups began to systematically converge on separated pockets of knights and cut them down. Groups that appeared still conhesive had their horses shot out from under them and unhorsed knights were quickly dispatched by Mongol lancers. As this was developing, a smoke suddenly began to cover the field (another Mongol tatic). The infantry that had been left behind could no longer see their knights and became confused. Mongol horsemen suddenly fell on them from various directions. The slaughter began. It is recorded that 25,000 men were slain. Wenceslas when he heard of the disaster retreated to a defensive position.


Mohi:

As the battle of Leignitz was unfolding the main Mongol army of 50,000 invaded Hungry. The Carpathian Mts. were crossed by four separate groups. These then formed into two forces that moved into the Hugarian plain. King Bela of Hungry had between 60,000 and 70,000 troops to oppose the Mongol threat. His force advanced to meet the Mongol force on the Mohi plain near the Sajo River. A Mongol group of around 20,000 faced the King. They fell back before his force and recrossed the river to occupy the opposite side of the only bridge crossing. The Mongols set a defense with catapults. Bela did not attempt to take the bridge immediately, his force camped on the other side with wagons drawn around his army in a laarger. The following day the Hungarians assaulted the bridge. The fighting was intense and the Mongol defenders took heavy losses. Once across the bridge, Bela again formed up a strong defensive position with his wagons tied together. Unknown to the Hungarian King the second Mongol force of 30,000 had crossed over the river some miles downsteam and was approaching his rear. The following morning the smaller Mongol force under the command of Batu launched a strong attack on the Hungarian left flank. The attack was intense enough to force the Hungarian army to turn. As this attack was being carried out, Subetai (the leader of the second Mongol force) struck the Hungarian rear. The outmanuverd Hungarians that could, retreated to the wagon enclosure of their camp. The Hungarian camp was then surrounded and bombarded with catapults, burning tar and naphtha for several hours. It was then that a gap was noticed in the Mongol surrounding force. Several Hungarian troops made for the gap and escaped. Others noticing this success made the same attempt and were also successful. This lead to a general attempt by the army to make its way through the gap. The disorganized mass was fell upon by the Mongol cavalry and cut to pieces. It is estimated between 40,000 and 60,000 were slain.

Both battles took place within three days of each other.

These two battles illustrate a larger point regarding the fighting acumen of the two sides. Europe was yet to develop a comprehensive tactical/strategic understanding of war. The Mongols however, had a sense for tatics and strategy that showed itself in a coordinated campaign across an entire front. This sense for war would not be seen again until the Modern Era.

The view that argues counter to the above can only do so by ignoring the obvious relevance of troop discipline, tactical acumen and strategic insight. Revisonist history appears from time to time, but simply because one presents a new view does not mean it is a corret one.
 
Last edited:

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
In regards to claims of Mongol invincibility, I'll quote your in full:

Originally posted by Pontiac

Some may argue that the Horde would have been beaten at some point in a continued invasion of the 1240's. I think such views are delusional. However, were the Mongols to sweep all before them, the game will have a rather sudden end. My guess is this is not what most are looking for. So, are the Mongols to be sapped of strengh so they can be handled by their opposition? Are they simply to follow the historical pattern and suddenly turn back East? Or will they be given a series of possible invasion goals, only one of which includes an out and out attempt to conguer the West?


Delusional that they could be stopped? Sweep all before them? Sapped of strength so they can be handled by the opposition?
Sounds like claims of invincibility to me.

Originally posted by Pontiac
The recurve-composite bows commonly used in the East have been tested and shown to have a firing range of 300M. Further, the typical Mongol quiver held 60 arrows of various types for different conditions.

This is too shallow to have any meaning. What type of recurve-composite? What materials? What sort of arrow(flight arrows fired from a 130pd longbow can go up to 500M if the wind gauge is favorable.)? What draw strength? Firing strength? From horseback or on foot? What typical mongol quiver(there are so few surviving in the west that any definicion of typical would be meaningless). What sort of arrows? I've seen archeological samples of flight, broad-bladed hunting/war, thin-bladed hunting/war, whistiling, fire and thing-bladed hooked, but no bodkin comparison.

That the russians failed to halt the mongols is undisputable.

Originally posted by Pontiac
Farther to the West, Europe had developed a distinct concept of war. This view revolved around the personal valor of the knight and the power of the charge. (snipped)

This is also a subject we've been over before. Popular knowledge of western warfare in the high middle ages is colored by older, outdated and biased scholarship. Yes, impetiousness could be a problem, as in any pre-modern army. No, it wasn't the rule. The latin christian armies could and did display an discipline, tactical training and flexibility before, during and after the high middle ages. Infantry-cavalry cooperation, tactical flanking, timed charges, correct deployment of archers et. al. Sources as early as 750 AD describe Ottonian infantry and cavalry performing mock battles with rebated arms and practicing feigned flights and resposes to this tactic.

One reason older scholars judge the west to be lacking in martial knowledge and skill is that the chroniclers of the west almost always put more energy and space into finding someone to blame when someone loses a battle - but the victories are given by God and thus not as open to debate(this is the MA "politically correct" view one sees in chronicles, not the contemporary common view). Thus the losing battles seem more interesting.

I could go on with this for pages. Read this introductory article from History Today :

http://www.deremilitari.org/mcglynn.htm

for a bit more depth.


The battles: Sources please. Your descriptions sound like Lamb and Marshall(and Chambers, who draws on Marshall), both of whom over-analogy and use the sources, especially Dlugosz, uncritically in order to present a comprehensive overview of the battles. Lamb also confuses the Mohi plains battle with the Danube crossing and intermixes the two. They also draw way too many analogies from the more source-rich 14th century Yüan and apply them directly to the 13th-century western mongols.

Originally posted by Pontiac

Revisonist history appears from time to time, but simply because one presents a new view does not mean it is a corret one.

Once again this. Please do examine your own sources before you accuse others of bad scholarship. The serious reexamination of the Victorian/Enlightenment view of medieval warfare has been going on for over 40 years and errors are corrected continually. Hitting others over the head with a toy phrase when it's not applicable is meaningless and unscholary. Revisionism is a political-historic movement applied in small degree to medieval history.

EF
 

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
This debate will have to go on a two-week hiatus for me. I'm off to sweden for a medieval experimental archaeology and living history extravaganza where we will, among other things, test the firing, draw strength and penetration power of different bow, amongst them the famed recurved-composite.
 

unmerged(12746)

Yon Dan
Dec 15, 2002
1.386
0
Visit site
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
This debate will have to go on a two-week hiatus for me. I'm off to sweden for a medieval experimental archaeology and living history extravaganza where we will, among other things, test the firing, draw strength and penetration power of different bow, amongst them the famed recurved-composite.

Enjoy your trip Endre
 

unmerged(6160)

Member of Parliament 1900
Oct 24, 2001
916
0
Visit site
If the Mongols lauched a full blown invasion of Europe, I say they would have failed. They might have conquerored large areas of territory, but the Russians and the Russias are different then the Western Empires and the people would have not let a mongol ruler stay over them, and the Mongols would have soon run out of grazing room...

Have fun Endre...
 

Endre Fodstad

Colonel
23 Badges
Feb 6, 2000
1.142
3
Visit site
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
One last drop-in before I launch off into the woods of Småland.
Thanks guys.

In regards to a full-blown invasion of western europe well, we'll never know, and there are too many variables and a great many gray areas needing further research on both latin and turcomongol warfare. My view is that they didn't really want to - the dominion that interested them lay further south. In the hundreds of years the Golden Horde existed it never seriously tried to expand its territories further west.
A full invasion would, no matter how it had turned out, have been a bloody mess no matter how one looks at it - be it a turcomongol win, loss or eventual agreement. One can only be happy it never happened.
 

crazy canuck

Great Canadian Hero
13 Badges
Nov 15, 2002
1.206
0
Visit site
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
Originally posted by Endre Fodstad
This debate will have to go on a two-week hiatus for me. I'm off to sweden for a medieval experimental archaeology and living history extravaganza where we will, among other things, test the firing, draw strength and penetration power of different bow, amongst them the famed recurved-composite.

Have a good time.


And try one of those recurved-composite bows from horseback.:)
 

unmerged(18159)

Recruit
Jul 10, 2003
9
0
Visit site
It is not surprising that the mongols where that much better in military tactics than the armies they faced. The Turks and Mongols had longer military traditions, if we look at Germany during the second worldwar, we can see that a military tradition can have many positive influences on an army, especialy in the officer core. Due to more experience in war, the knowledge about war will increase drasticly. Secondly, the troops were raised in the saddle... Most eastern European soldiers were farmers in their normal life, since most nations used the Auxilia system invented in the Roman empire (they forgot that the Romans stopped using the system because it failed them).

Furthermore, a European nation has some disadvantages compared to a nomadic force. The European nations where mostly settled in the 12th and 13th centuries. A settled nation has certain points of interest in a land; cities, noble houses and fertile places. Therefore, a settled land will sometimes have to defend places that are not suited to defence. A nomadic nation will be able to choose its own battlefield. Maybe not allways, but it must be easy for an experienced force such as the eastern hordes to trick your enemy in fighting on a terrain that doesn't suit his army.

Added to this, if a namadic nation loses a battle, it can always come back for more. If a European nation loses a battle, it has mostly lost some of its valuable position. The situation in Eastern Europe was the situation of a country under attack. It were the homes of the the Kiev principality that where under attack and the fields of the Hungarians that were burnt. Thus, a European defeat is more important in the outcome of a war. Therefore, a European defeat will increase the idea of an invincible mongol/turco force more than a mongol defeat will lower it.

When there is an idea of an invincible mongol/turco horde, this will affect the troops who fight them. You can imagine that when you are a general, you will have a hard time convincing your troops that they can defeat this army. Again, see the second world war... Soviet morale was low after a few months in operation "Barbarossa", since the German warmachine was unstoppable or invincible.


To go back to the game... It might be a good idea to add something of a morale lowerer for the enemy if you are conquering the world as fast as the hordes from the east did.
But be sure not to overdo it.... EU (and hopefully CK) has the advantage that conquering the world doesn't become easy after you have grown to control a large portion of the map and becomes easier with every province you capture. If you give the Mongol/Turco hordes more experienced than European troops, they will soon carve an empire capable of inflicting a severe morale penalty on their enemies.

P.S. There has been an "invincible" mongol horde... If you look at your sources about Timur the great, you will see that he never lost a battle in his life.
 

unmerged(12746)

Yon Dan
Dec 15, 2002
1.386
0
Visit site
Originally posted by v.Oldebarnevelt
It is not surprising that the mongols where that much better in military tactics than the armies they faced. The Turks and Mongols had longer military traditions, if we look at Germany during the second worldwar, we can see that a military tradition can have many positive influences on an army, especialy in the officer core. Due to more experience in war, the knowledge about war will increase drasticly. Secondly, the troops were raised in the saddle... Most eastern European soldiers were farmers in their normal life, since most nations used the Auxilia system invented in the Roman empire (they forgot that the Romans stopped using the system because it failed them).

Furthermore, a European nation has some disadvantages compared to a nomadic force. The European nations where mostly settled in the 12th and 13th centuries. A settled nation has certain points of interest in a land; cities, noble houses and fertile places. Therefore, a settled land will sometimes have to defend places that are not suited to defence. A nomadic nation will be able to choose its own battlefield. Maybe not allways, but it must be easy for an experienced force such as the eastern hordes to trick your enemy in fighting on a terrain that doesn't suit his army.

Added to this, if a namadic nation loses a battle, it can always come back for more. If a European nation loses a battle, it has mostly lost some of its valuable position. The situation in Eastern Europe was the situation of a country under attack. It were the homes of the the Kiev principality that where under attack and the fields of the Hungarians that were burnt. Thus, a European defeat is more important in the outcome of a war. Therefore, a European defeat will increase the idea of an invincible mongol/turco force more than a mongol defeat will lower it.

When there is an idea of an invincible mongol/turco horde, this will affect the troops who fight them. You can imagine that when you are a general, you will have a hard time convincing your troops that they can defeat this army. Again, see the second world war... Soviet morale was low after a few months in operation "Barbarossa", since the German warmachine was unstoppable or invincible.


To go back to the game... It might be a good idea to add something of a morale lowerer for the enemy if you are conquering the world as fast as the hordes from the east did.
But be sure not to overdo it.... EU (and hopefully CK) has the advantage that conquering the world doesn't become easy after you have grown to control a large portion of the map and becomes easier with every province you capture. If you give the Mongol/Turco hordes more experienced than European troops, they will soon carve an empire capable of inflicting a severe morale penalty on their enemies.

P.S. There has been an "invincible" mongol horde... If you look at your sources about Timur the great, you will see that he never lost a battle in his life.

Welcome to the forum, great post I agree with you hear about the military organization. After having read Endre's initial post it got me to digging out some of my books that have been packed away since my last move. I plan to post something similar to his, I am intrested to see what other think and get some feed back on how it should apply to the game, or if they think my notions are all wet !

I was planning to do that this weekend, part of the post was going to be a discussion on the composition of European armies vs. Mongol armies which you touched on. I agree there should be a morale penalty of somekind, although I dont have the post prepared yet, Its pretty clear from my studies that the Mongol war machine was extremely more efficent then any european army at the time and as a result was highly likely to have greater success against larger forces.

Although we dont have a historical basis for an argument on the sucess of a concerted mongol expansion West, we can draw some educated guesses. I am hoping the developers have as well and have built into the game the morale modifier you spoke of.