The India Problem. Again.

[Alexander Seil]

I've brought this up before, but after some vigorous multi-page discussion, the topic died.

Anyway, I think one of the major holes in HoI2 was the representation of British India. Or, rather, the game ignoring that there was any productive or military capacity in the whole subcontinent. In particular, the British were severely handicapped in India and lost to Japan regularly simply because they could never muster more than 5 divisions to defend the subcontinent, and, moreover, those 5 divisions had to be supplied directly from London!

Changes to logistics aside, I believe that British India needs to be represented as a puppet regime. Now, it doesn't solve the *fundamental* problem, but British India is by far the most grotesque incarnation of it, and it is easy enough to fix, not to mention that making India semi-independent would be much more realistic (the Indian government, after all, wasn't directly bossed around by London, and even had a semblance of autonomous foreign policy). The Indian Army was one of the largest component of the Allied forces and could certainly handle any overland Japanese invasion. In HoI2, that's impossible, because the million or so volunteers who served in the Indian Army aren't there, and the only people defending India are a bunch of starving Limeys. That has to change, in my opinion. India should be a tough nut to crack, and more than capable to raise a force to be reckoned with.

It would also enable all kinds of intelligence shenanigans on the Japanese part (supporting Indian nationalist parties!) that would be probably ignored if the British Empire is a monolithic entity.

 

[Jerzul]

I completely agree. The British should be able to muster several divisions of colonial troops directly from india. However, if this is the case there should be a chance for a general revolt if the Japanese actually reach the subcontinent. Either way, something needs to be done about India.

 

[Alexander Seil]

The British should be able to muster several divisions of colonial troops directly from india.

They raised 2.5 millions. At the outbreak of the war there were some 200k. Granted, it doesn't translate directly into field divisions, but that's still A LOT OF PEOPLE. It's not just several divisions of colonial troops. If India is in, it should be a pretty powerful presence and a major asset...but with a possibility of the Japanese screwing it up with a general revolt if they manage to break through beyond Bengal, as you suggest.

 

[Waffen9999]

Sounds plausible enough, I just want to be able to use the manpower this time around. The Indian army recruited millions of volunteers if I remember correctly. In HOI2 the British manpower pool was abysmal at best, as when war started you stopped getting manpower from overseas places >though I swear even without war I never got any from India or anywhere else for that matter<

 

[Jerzul]

They raised 2.5 millions. At the outbreak of the war there were some 200k. Granted, it doesn't translate directly into field divisions, but that's still A LOT OF PEOPLE. It's not just several divisions of colonial troops. If India is in, it should be a pretty powerful presence and a major asset...but with a possibility of the Japanese screwing it up with a general revolt if they manage to break through beyond Bengal, as you suggest.

I misswrote that. I agree, India should be a major boon to the British, and should have several special events attached to it.

 

[Alexander Seil]

But that's precisely why HoI2 restricted the use of colonial manpower in wartime - the British could potentially get a lot of Indian manpower, yet deploy it in England. The whole setup was completely bizarre. Indian units should be trained in India. I don't care about Nigerians and Congolese, but India's weak defense is a serious flaw in HoI2 (not to mention that they never revolt against anyone, under any circumstances). I see Japan take India every time, which in reality is less plausible than them landing in Australia. It also goes along with the campaigns for Malaya and Burma being a joke, because the British are incapable of adequately defending them without their Indian Army.

 

[Jebus]

Over 90% of British India's troops were deployed in internal peacekeeping missions, though.

That doesn't translate well in the HOI system.

 

[Alexander Seil]

It does, if they let India be a separate state and let it have high dissent/radical opposition with high party organization. That's the point of having a political system to begin with, it seems. It's certainly more important to model that, than Irish parliamentary politics.

 

[unmerged(76922)]

Well, didn't they specificlly mention one of the advantages in the new province system is its better ability to model the Burma portion of the war? That doesn't directly relate to fixing the problems you raised, but tells me they are at least looking into the improving that general area, so hopefully we'll see some india lovin'.

 

[Alexander Seil]

That would actually worsen the situation if everything else still works like HoI2. The British are invariably outnumbered, and having more provinces will just make it easier for the Japanese to outflank the measly 2 divisions the British usually deploy there.

Another thing to consider is that HoI2 modeled Yemen (?!), Oman (?!?) and even Tannu Tuva (!!!) as controllable countries...yet poor India got the boot. Now, I appreciate obscure countries as much as the next guy, but Tannu Tuva instead of India? What?

 

[out]

I agree with the OP completely. In fact, I think most of these colony/puppet states design needs to be reworked. That would require a lot of dev resource, I know, but still. The HoI series makes a lot of noise about you being able to play any country in the world, but the reality is that, for most countries, there really isn't a game there.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think the relationship between European colonial powers and their colonies better stay where it is (unless they want to introduce a new country "status," that of a colony, rather than a puppet). But those are small change, for the most part - do we *really* care if the Nigerian units aren't properly modeled? In most cases it won't have any impact on the game. But screwing Britain out of having a 2.5 million force to defend India against misguided Japanese offensives severely affects the game and, if you're playing in the Far East, is easily game-breaking (as the largest land campaign in Asia, after China, is complete bogus in HoI2). So I'm comfortable with them leaving other colonies as-is. But Indian autonomy is crucial.

 

[Sir Humphrey]

Government of India Act 1935. Reason almost enough for puppet status in game.

 

[diskoerekto]

I had a thread making a suggestion about this subject. Not only india but also regarding any "self-sufficient overseas territories" as blue emu named the question. Here is the link:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?t=373022

 

[unmerged(44926)]

I agree that something should be done to better represent India, but it would have to be done very carefully.

At the same time that India had the potential to build a massive army, and millions volunteered, there was also a lot of nationalists who were hoping to see the British quit India, and would have been willing to work with the Japanese to make it happen. There were cases of anti-British groups getting support from the Japanese, and while it's impossible to speculate how things would have turned out had a good sized Japanese force made a push through Bengal, it would have been messy.

And as noted before, that huge army was generally used to maintain peace within India, not to fight the war outside of it. Having a puppet India throw dozens of divisions into South East Asia and China to fight the Japanese would be a bad thing. (Say nothing of shipping these divisions to Europe.)

Out of curiosity, does anybody have any statistics for the number of Indian divisions which fought during the War and where? I know some Fought in Burma, and I'm pretty sure in North Africa and the Middle East as well, but beyond that I know little.

 

[unmerged(45464)]

I think we need more options than just regular or puppet regime. Maybe a colonial regime, making it more autonomous than just being a part of UK, France or whatever, but not quite a puppet with all that implies in being able to have own fleets, armies, research, air force etc.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have any statistics for the number of Indian divisions which fought during the War and where? I know some Fought in Burma, and I'm pretty sure in North Africa and the Middle East as well, but beyond that I know little.

Check this site

Second World War Military Unit Database

or this one

World War II Armed Forces – Orders of Battle and Organizations

 

[Enzo]

Also, if Japan is able to shoot down India easily in HoI2 is probably because it can concentrate big force at the border with China (I oftenly see in mp more than 30 ID), which should be a real logistic nightmare based on the region geography and infrastructure. Thus, I believe in HoI 3 it'll be harder for Japan to launch a major offensive on India, at the same time it's clear that Indian division should be deploy in India and not London, bringing the same kind of logistic issue for the UK.

 

[Alexander Seil]

I think that it's possible to use the political system (which did not really exist in HOI2) as a means to simulate the dangers of India (namely, the danger of a massive uprising). It certainly shouldn't be a free ride for the British. But the problem is, in order to simulate Indian nationalist parties, you need India as a state to begin with. And, again, if Oman is a controllable country, why not India?

 

[unmerged(48056)]

Most MODs make India a dominion because as mentioned the British A.I. can't defend India, let alone engage in multiple fronts.