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Porkman

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Absolutely, an alternative early term for money was a promissary note. You'd give someone a note that promised them a future claim on something you have. However, without that claim being plausible, the value of that note would be nothing. Just because you can print as many notes as you'd like, doesn't mean they have any value. That value of that debt is based on a complex system of valuations and assessments, rather than someone putting a "10" on a piece of paper next to a "$" and passing a law that $10 is now sufficient to buy a coffee and a burger.

Yes, but with two very important qualifications:
- If Germany trades any of that away, then it will get money, which could enable it to buy other, more important things.
- The German people only have a certain tolerance to be put through hardship (in this particular case, quite a high one), so Germany can dedicate the majority of its resources to producing war material. However, in the US, without a threat of invasion, it is highly unlikely they would have been able to muster anywhere near that level of economic commitment to the war effort. Without modelling money (or some proxy), we would have to either artificially nerf the US economy. What HoI did was effectively model domestic resources through IC - IC is the money equivalent, where there was still a proportion kept for civilian use. However, this type of modelling only takes into account current production, and doesn't model the stores of civilian wealth that were tapped in all countries to various degrees over the course of the war. War bonds were a key means for many countries (US example given below) to raise the resources required to fight the way. Given different countries had different levels of development of their financial systems, and different amounts of accumulated wealth, modelling money would enable the simulation to be as accurate as possible.

http://www.nationalww2museum.org/le...ww2-history/take-a-closer-look/war-bonds.html

You can pull the 10$ = burger with a robust enough enforcement system. It won't last for really long but a developed police state can keep it up for the medium term.

But, remember, money is not just in there for the simulation. It needs to give the player interesting choices. In that respect, I don't think the primary use for money is really during the war. Instead, I think it's better used in the pre war period. As you said, for most countries, the prospect of invasion took off the brakes, the real rub was getting the needed money before the war started. Once the war is on, I think most players will want to be focused on the movement of troops and such and it would be better if the money management aspect became less constraining at this point. (of course, this needs to be managed so Italy can't prolong the war with Ethiopia to get a full war economy for 5 years)



As a gameplay mechanic, the goal of money would be to give the various European actors and America especially, more to do during the lead up to war.
 

Axe99

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Lots of people keep saying "but it's all good, everyone just went into debt and didn't have to pay it back until later". The thing is, though, they could only go into debt if there were sources to borrow from in the first place. This is the point I'm pushing - these things are important to a simulation of WW2.

That said, it doesn't all need to be about national accounting statistics. As per my previous post, IC pretty much did this (don't forget that how much money you got for international trade was what was left over after you'd met your consumer needs on the consumer slider, iirc (not guaranteed, set me straight if I've had a brain explosion) - so the rest of the economy was simulated). This worked, and did a reasonable job. It was a bit rough and ready, but by tweaking base IC at the start it can do a good enough job of providing a proxy for a combination of accumulated resources and capacity to produce (savings, human capital, factories, etc) and natural resources. By combining the two, it will fall apart over a longer-term game, but that's all good for HoI, it's only a decade or so (if we do want HoI to be extendable (as plausibly historical) into the cold war, then it's absolutely vital to take a more nuanced approach than IC).

I have no doubt that it will be simulated again, through IC or similar, and if it wasn't then there's no way HoI would provide anything like a grand strategy experience.

The thing that I find most perplexing is the view that countries didn't care about money during the war (or debt, for that matter). I get that we don't want to focus on managing tolerance of debt in a WW2 simulator, and I'm not suggesting for a second it be turned into an economic simulation, but that we at least maintain what's been undertaken previously. Even in the bounds of HoI3, if the consumer part of the economy was pushed too heavily (running below the consumer goods slider), then NU would deteriorate, and things went to pot. This is (roughly, but good enough for the game) modelling the impact of taking too much away from people and putting it into the war economy. Ie, we already have this modelled in HoI3 (and it's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure it was there in 1 and 2 as well) and it should be a no-brainer that the impact of money (through a proxy of IC, or through proportion of economic activity (in collars) for non-war/industrial consumption is the same thing, at the end of the day) will be in HoI4 as well.

But, remember, money is not just in there for the simulation. It needs to give the player interesting choices. In that respect, I don't think the primary use for money is really during the war. Instead, I think it's better used in the pre war period. As you said, for most countries, the prospect of invasion took off the brakes, the real rub was getting the needed money before the war started. Once the war is on, I think most players will want to be focused on the movement of troops and such and it would be better if the money management aspect became less constraining at this point. (of course, this needs to be managed so Italy can't prolong the war with Ethiopia to get a full war economy for 5 years)

As a gameplay mechanic, the goal of money would be to give the various European actors and America especially, more to do during the lead up to war.

That's the thing though, the impact of taxation/war bond raising/etc; do provide interesting choices. In HoI3 the decision about what kind of war footing you were on (what proportion of IC was consumer goods) was effectively how heavily you taxed/raised bonds, and it had modifiers for all these things. Further, how aggressive Germany was had an impact on how heavily its potential enemies could start raising debt and taxes to prepare for war. Ie, the decisions relating to money were already there in HoI3. As it's a grand strategy game, the choices will be there again for HoI4, in some form or other.
 

frolix42

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I'm posting in this thread the discussion started elsewhere as it seems the topic is interesting to someone

Thanks for creating this thread. Elsewhere: Someone in the DD #8 thread was pretty adamant about demonstrating he doesn't understand how money works.

Money in a WW2 game is useless. The only thing that mattered was production capacity and raw material.

Maybe he was roleplaying and posting as a member of the Fourth International. :)

Now try to present some facts instead of worthless opinions and guesses.

*ahem* So I'm not posting in any character and therefore trying not to be insulting.

You can look up the 'cost' of each vehicle to produce inc Panthers, T34, M4.

In for example Germany under the LSOe system instituted post-Sudeten Crisis for public military contracts; a group of technocrats dispatched by the Nazi govt would inspect what was determined to be a "good firm" and analyze the cost of production for a single unit (tank, plane, toothbrush, etc.). The price which the Nazi govt paid all firms for a unit of this was set as this cost plus a margin of profit typically between 5% and 10%.

The thing that I find most perplexing is the view that countries didn't care about money during the war (or debt, for that matter). I get that we don't want to focus on managing tolerance of debt in a WW2 simulator, and I'm not suggesting for a second it be turned into an economic simulation, but that we at least maintain what's been undertaken previously.

Done well modeling money would not only add to realism to the game, but make it easier to understand in comparison to HoI3. An international barter trade of 22.0 Oil for 13.4 Steel is not how things worked and this tells the player nothing about how much Oil and Steel are worth relative to each other. Likewise IRL trades between countries were measured in currency not units; Germany would export 'X' ℛℳ worth of coal while importing 'Y' ℛℳ worth of Oil, there was not an import/export balance with every country. Ideally all imports should be paid for in cash.
 
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Cardus

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I think that this is a very good quote
"If there were no debts in our money system, then there would not be any money"

- Marriner Eccles - Chairman of the US Federal reserve Sept 1941
At the end of the day I would like an improved system (like in EU/Victoria) where you can borrow or print money but this has a cost. I think that everyone agree that money is important for international trades so I won't talk about that. Now let's assume there is only one country in game and as dictator I have the full power over my country and I want to expand the military expenses.
If I do that I need to:
A) Print additional money (which means inflation dependant on the state of the economy e.g. less inflation if the economy is depressed)
and/or
B) Borrow money from the citizens (which means I have to pay an increasing interest somehow moderated if I oblige the citizen to lend me money)
and/or
C) Increase taxes.

Usually during a war all means are used (A+B+C) but in all cases money is a constraint that limits my possible actions even if I'm a dictator. For example I can print 100$ and pay with that an additional tank. 100$ will pay the firm (e.g. 80$) and the worker (e.g. 20$). After that I can get back part of the 100$ either in form of taxes or as war bonds. But people may refuse to pay taxes and/or to lend money so, as Porkman has outlined, first or later the real economy can diverge substantially from the "official" state controlled economy and even if you are a dictator and you have full power over the country you can't steer it.
In all countries, in fact, there was more or less (from the USA, to Germany, from Japan to Italy) a black market at which the goods were traded at a different price from the official regulated price.

So back to the game: as a country you should be able to print, borrow and tax but more you do so less confident will be the citizens and less efficient the economy will be.
 

Porkman

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The problem is how to make it intuitive, not fiddly, and entirely automated if someone so desires.

While some people may get a kick out of manipulating international trade, lots of players are just here for the panzers. If they start a game as Germany, start building the Wehrmacht of their dreams, only to have the whole thing crash down in 1942, not because of battlefield defeat but because they didn't understand their Phillips Curve... that's going to be lots of angry, angry customers.

It's not intuitive. People can understand, "I can't build this, because I don't have enough resources" or "I can't build this, because I don't have enough factories." but "I can't build this because my early war build up has debased my currency to the point where I can't pay for my workers or factories and now I have to contemplate reissuing the currency at a higher denomination or institute wage controls, or maybe general price controls or maybe if I cuse my leadership to crack down on the black market... I thought this game was about commanding troops..."

I'm really worried about the task loading on the player, especially because it's one that's not necessarily "on the tin" for a WW2 game.

It's important for the simulation aspect... but as a gameplay element... it can never be more than the level of an annoyance because I don't think players will stand for it if it has really catastrophic consequences. People want to pull off Operation Uranus, not run the finance ministry, for the most part.
 

Cardus

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The problem is how to make it intuitive, not fiddly, and entirely automated if someone so desires.
Just copying and adapting what can be copied and adapted from Victoria/EU
 

Porkman

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Just copying and adapting what can be copied and adapted from Victoria/EU

I've never played Victoria and barely played EU... that said I think those games have a more forgiving learning curve and more than one war to fight.... If you mess up your economy you have 50 years to fix it. Not something that can be said for HOI.
 

Axe99

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@ Frolix - I completely agree, I'm 'pro' modelling money, however, Porkman's point is very important as well. My main beef was the statement made by many that money didn't matter during the war, which I'll argue strongly against.

The problem is how to make it intuitive, not fiddly, and entirely automated if someone so desires.

While some people may get a kick out of manipulating international trade, lots of players are just here for the panzers.

This is the key, although it needn't (shouldn't) be micro-managing hell (hell, most modern Governments only manage their budgets with the broadest of strokes), and the decision tree should be laid out in such a way that it's clear whether someone's doing something silly, and there should be warnings in place if the economy is approaching a point where it might fall over in a heap through inflation or ticking off citizens and pushing up NU (this was handled very straightforwardly in HoI3 by decisions on the 'war footing' of the economy, and the location of the domestic (sorry, can't remember the name, the slider down the bottom!) goods slider - if you underneath your percentage, then NU goes down, if you're above, NU goes up - that simple).

The key benefit of modelling money is likely to be in better modelling the transfer of resources and wealth from the civilian to military economy (it wasn't just an increase in taxes, but also a draw-down in already established wealth over the war years, something that's not really in the game at this stage), which then enables things like providing the loans from the US to the UK and USSR, and between various Allies. This was again kind of there in HoI3 through the ability to allocate domestic IC to other countries, but this was a pretty rough-and-ready way to do it.

One of the benefits of the IC approach is that the numbers are far, far smaller. If the game went with using money as a layer on top of IC, then doing the same thing and having the numbers as far smaller amounts would be the way to go.

I also totally agree it needs to be fully automated (like all the systems in HoI3, I'm not sure whether they're planning to go that way with 4) - as you say, plenty of people are here primarily for the strategic allocation of war assets, rather than maximising their production (which is where the economic management comes into it) - but the maximising production side of things is an important element in a strategic level game.

Anyways, I have no doubt that 'money' in some form (maybe not with that name, but providing a similar kind of abstraction of wealth) will be in the game, it's just the form it takes (be it IC, money, both as per HoI3 or something else entirely).
 

Darkgamma

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I don't come here often (read: at all), but...

This argument is fundamentally flawed. How will USA convert "money raised through taxing it's citizens" into "2000 armoured divisions" ?

To build say half a million tanks ( roughly 200 divisions ) you need vast amounts of iron, steel, machinery, factories as well as knowledge and workers willing to work.

Nowhere is a single penny technically required to build half a million tanks.

Hey, nowhere is a willing worker needed, either. If you cut out the pennies, you can cut out consent as well.
 

frolix42

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This argument is fundamentally flawed. How will USA convert "money raised through taxing it's citizens" into "2000 armoured divisions" ?

To build say half a million tanks ( roughly 200 divisions ) you need vast amounts of iron, steel, machinery, factories as well as knowledge and workers willing to work.

Taxation of citizens effectively lowers their income. They will spend less on consumer goods and allows the money collected by the government to be invested in war capital. A citizen can no longer afford to buy a Ford Coupe at peacetime prices, reducing the demand for cars. Fortunately for Ford there is a demand for tanks. Governments also take shortcuts, in the form of rationing, in order to further depress public consumption.

Nowhere is a single penny technically required to build half a million tanks.

Governments need money to pay for the resources required to build these tanks.

Wasn't most of the "money" needed to pay for WW2 actually borrowed via war bonds or banks?

Rationing also encourages citizens to reduce consumption and to save money in banks, which is then invested by the government in armaments. These methods allowed Germany to avoid raising personal income takes until very late in the war, though it's not necessarily better than direct taxation. The currency of Germany became virtually worthless after the war.
 

Alex_brunius

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Governments need money to pay for the resources required to build these tanks.

Nope, Soviet for example did not need to buy resources for a penny. All resource extractions were state owned already.



My point however is that the money even in the US example does not leave the country since it's circulated between:

government ( buys tanks ) -> factories ( pay wages ) -> workers ( pay tax/invest warbonds back to government ) -> government ....

So the amount of money circulated is pretty much irrelevant. It can be $10 or $10,000,000 and the only impact it will make is what numbers are written on the currency.

The currency of Germany became virtually worthless after the war.

Ofcourse it did, but it has nothing to do with their taxation or rationing.

The reason why it became worthless was because the same amount of money existed, but only a small percentage of the real German economy ( factories, houses, infrastructure & shops + services ) to back it up remained intact due to extensive bombing and fighting.
 
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frolix42

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Nope, Soviet for example did not need to buy resources for a penny. All resource extractions were state owned already.

I know this, but did all participants in WW2 have state-ownership of all heavy industry? Of course not. Did the Soviet Union have to pay their workers? Yes, since the NEP in 1924 rationing in the SU no longer applied to all goods. It would be almost unthinkable for the US government to nationalize the US Steel corporation or simply not to pay them for their steel even during wartime. During war governments often fix prices and wages, but only to the degree which their populations allow them to do so. If the burden becomes too odious and the public loses confidence in their government, as happened in Germany in 1918, they can and will revolt.

Labor is a resource, the Soviet Union was not a cashless economy. They still assigned monetary value to their raw materials, even though they were publicly owned, in order to allocate resources to the best of their abilities.

So the amount of money circulated is pretty much irrelevant. It can be $10 or $10,000,000 and the only impact it will make is what numbers are written on the currency.

If there is only $10 nominally circulating in the US economy, the only thing that would change is the nominal amount of money needed to build armaments, pay wages, the foreign exchange rates, etc. Across all Paradox games money is simplified to reflect it's real value so I'm not sure what your point is here.
 
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Bullfrog

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So if money equates to ability to import stuff, whether that's raw material or equipment, then if it remains in the game, there should be more mechanics in place to spend it than we see in HOI 3. If not, we get these huge sums of money in the US for example that are totally worthless.
To make it more useful or meaningful the economy side of the game would have to be expanded. I don't think that'll happen in HoI4. What can be done with existing mechanics? Is there a point in having it generated by IC but not spent domestically? If it could be spent on research, would that be more historical?
 

jju_57

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First off HOI is a game about WW2. There are a few years leading up to it but it is about the war. It is NOT about post war. It is NOT about managing debt or rebuilding after the war. And even if you hope, wish, pray, or bribe for it to be more it won't be. So that is fundamental fact numero uno.

Now I challenge you "money is important" backers to explain how in a game about WW2 money should be represented. get to specific game mechanics and not some theory based on economics. Tell us your vision of how money will be used in the game. Outside of trade to other countries it means squat. And even then I as Germany can tell Sweden to trade me the ore or else I'll attack your lousy country. And depending on how the war is going is how they would respond. But if I'm winning nothing prevents me from taking it.

As for building stuff like planes, ships, tanks etc. money means nothing. Every country ran up debt, used forced labor or did other things to get what they needed. The limiting factor wasn't money but was factories, manpower and resources. Money meant nothing here.

Can anyone provide me one historical thing that a country did without because of money? You can't because it never happened. Money is not a limiting factor in war.

Now maybe some of your would like to play World War Two the Accounting Game but I prefer the actual war.

So I challenge you guys supporting money to first state how money would be used in HOI4 and then prove that it was done that way historically and had the impact you are going for.
 

Cardus

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So if money equates to ability to import stuff, whether that's raw material or equipment, then if it remains in the game, there should be more mechanics in place to spend it than we see in HOI 3.
Money equates to wealth which means that a country can import more stuff, lower taxes, increase expenses (defence, instruction, public works, welfare, etc.)
It's up to the politicians to decide the priorities and the budget.

To make it more useful or meaningful the economy side of the game would have to be expanded. I don't think that'll happen in HoI4. What can be done with existing mechanics? Is there a point in having it generated by IC but not spent domestically? If it could be spent on research, would that be more historical?
To get more money a country has strong incentives to export (i.e. produce and exploit its own resources) and to trade (exactly the opposite as in HOI).

So I challenge you guys supporting money to first state how money would be used in HOI4 and then prove that it was done that way historically and had the impact you are going for.

Already mentioned
For example Italy received from the USA oil plus additional supplies as tractors, trucks etc, needed for the Abyssinian war during the League of Nations embargo
 

jju_57

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Money equates to wealth which means that a country can import more stuff, lower taxes, increase expenses (defence, instruction, public works, welfare, etc.)
It's up to the politicians to decide the priorities and the budget.
Means nothing in a war. Your enemy won't export what you need no matter how much money you have. Lower taxes does not equate to more tanks. Welfare? Like who cares in a war. Do you really think any citizens in WW2 cared about welfare when bombs were falling on their heads? Please get real. name me one thing not built because of the lack of money.

To get more money a country has strong incentives to export (i.e. produce and exploit its own resources) and to trade (exactly the opposite as in HOI).
More important was the transporting of the material. Doesn't matter how much money you have if your transports are sunk now does it? So this argument also fails.

EDIT: Forgot to add that for countries like Germany it because much easier to just take what it needed as the war went on then to trade for it.
 

Cardus

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Means nothing in a war. Your enemy won't export what you need no matter how much money you have. Lower taxes does not equate to more tanks. Welfare? Like who cares in a war. Do you really think any citizens in WW2 cared about welfare when bombs were falling on their heads? Please get real. name me one thing not built because of the lack of money.
All countries had budget constraints prove us that this was not the case.

More important was the transporting of the material. Doesn't matter how much money you have if your transports are sunk now does it? So this argument also fails.
No. Delivery is the last bit of the deal. First you need to buy.
 

jju_57

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All countries had budget constraints prove us that this was not the case.

I note you didn't provide any proof but I can easily provide proof.

US Manhattan project. Debt ran up by all countries. Germany increasing war output as war went on. No budget constraints on any of these things.

No. Delivery is the last bit of the deal. First you need to buy.

Sorry but your answer is rally silly at best. You buy only if you can get it delivered.

And I noticed you still can't answer any of my challenges to you. That says it all right there.
 

Kadanz

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It seems like we have 3 different discussions here: How money is represented in-game (HoI 3) and how it was respresented irl and how it should be respresented in HoI 4. I have the impression that people are not reading eachothers posts and therefor fail to understand what the other is saying and stubbornly stick to their opinions.

I'm not going to pretend I'm an economist or that I have the least of understanding how it worked IRL. What I do know is that in HoI 3 money was so abstracted that even a 10 year old could understand. That being said, on the subject of 'money should be better respresented in-game', I agree. However, within the current time frame of the game (+- 10 years?), there is no way that you can simulate an accurate debt system without abstraction in one way or the other.

So the question is, and also the original question of this topic, how should money be simulated in HoI4? By keeping in mind the game mechanics and time frame of the game. Now, the mechanics are still subject to speculation, since we haven't had a DD about it yet.
 

podcat

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- Its not represented in hoi4.
- I dont think it was really a concern for any nation in the war. UK got basically infinite loans etc. I cant find the quote by churchill atm, but basically win the war and worry later. Nobody is goign to pay anything back during the games timeframe etc (if the game started in 1920s I think money would have been a very important mechanic)
- carry on your interesting discussion :)
 
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